Can Oceania survive Viking Ocean?

[cbb]

 yes, we would be sailing Viking totally for the itinerary.  Uniworld just doesn't go to enough places that I want to see on the Nile, and Viking does. 

 

I wouldn't particularly care about the food and probably wouldn't have to deal with a snippy/overworked staff much (hopefully) but would like a comfy bed--Oceania has spoiled me!!!

 

We'd probably be doing a land tour of Turkey either before or after the Nile cruise--just have to work on getting the 2021 dates to link.  If not, we'd spend some time in Greece in between the two. 

 

With our luck, international relations would take a turn and both Turkey and Egypt would get cancelled.  (Even O has done this to us--both Instanbul and some Egyptian ports, so it's try try again!)

 

thanks y'all!

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by cbb

[ano]

4 hours ago, StanandJim said:

So what?  Cunard has been owned by Carnival for nearly a quarter century now, and excepting that they both sell boat rides, the cruising experience could not possibly be more different.

An early maritime mentor of mine explained this very succinctly.  In the early 20th century, three or four classes of people were all carried on a single ship and were happy to be divided so.  Think Titanic, as the White Star Line used to say-

In the modern era, each of those  "classes" imagines itself as unique and egalitarian, therefore each demands a vessel unto itself.   

 

Maybe go back and read the title of this thread for that answer. "Can Oceania survive Viking Ocean? So lets see, Norwegian, which owns Oceania made $5.4 billion in 2017, up 11% over 2016. In 2018 it was $6.1 billion, up 12.2% over 2017.     In 2018, Oceania ordered two more ships for $575 million each and received favorable funding for both.  (Viking has 6 ships and is ordering 6 more for 2027.)

 

Norwegian doesn't break-out profits or revenues per brand, which is typical, so its impossible to see how Oceania compares with Norwegian or Regent, but by all measures (total revenue, total cruise passengers, total cruise days) Norwegian is doing just fine. They did give a warning about potential "oversupply" in the industry, but they Oceania also ordered two new ships. so it can't be too much of a problem. So the number of ships keeps going up and the fun keeps going until the recession hits.

 

So, despite all the "noise" here, the answer to the OP,  "Can Oceania survive Viking Ocean?" is rather simple, YES yes Norwegian can and will have no problem dealing with Viking. Viking is private and doesn't disclose revenues but they have 5,000 employees (in 2017).  Norweigian has 31,000 employees or more than 6 times more.

 

So anyone believing that Viking is going to somehow put Oceania out of business, really needs to look at the facts a bit closer. There just is no proof of that.

Edited February 21, 2019 by ano

[babysteps]

17 minutes ago, ano said:

Norwegian, which owns Oceania made $5.4 billion in 2017, up 11% over 2016. In 2018 it was $6.1 billion, up 12.2% over 2017...Norwegian doesn't break-out profits or revenues per brand, which is typical, so its impossible to see how Oceania compares with Norwegian or Regent,

 

True, but if you are curious - someone on this board posted a link to the May 2018 NCL investor day presentation pdf, where they gave 2017 revenues in percentage terms for the three brands on slide 181 - 72% of the $5.4b NCL 2017 total revenue was Norwegian ($3.9b), 15% was O ($0.8b) and 13% was Regent ($0.7b).  No info on profit per brand in the presentation that I saw.  There was info about breakout of ticket vs. onboard spend by brand, otherwise by-brand figures were sparse (as you would expect).

 

Yes I used to work on Wall Street...and coincidentally NCL reported 4Q18 EPS today...apparently the market likes what they see so far (but don't judge a company by a partial day's price move)

Edited February 21, 2019 by babysteps
hey, they reported earnings today

[ano]

43 minutes ago, babysteps said:

 

True, but if you are curious - someone on this board posted a link to the May 2018 NCL investor day presentation pdf, where they gave 2017 revenues in percentage terms for the three brands on slide 181 - 72% of the $5.4b NCL 2017 total revenue was Norwegian ($3.9b), 15% was O ($0.8b) and 13% was Regent ($0.7b).  No info on profit per brand in the presentation that I saw.  There was info about breakout of ticket vs. onboard spend by brand, otherwise by-brand figures were sparse (as you would expect).

Interesting. Thanks.

[RJB]

Hard to know who will and who will not survive with all the new ships being built.  Viking has ordered 11 new ships in the next 7 years and Virgin has 3 on order.  And that is only the one's that will compete with Oceania.   Sounds like too many for the customers we have today.    I still think that O is making a big mistake reducing their loyalty program when they will need to keep all of us and make new ones to compete in the future.  I guess only time will tell.  We would like to see them here 5 and 10 years down the road.

[UDSpud]

Thanks to ANO for the recent "on topic" post.

 

A couple of notes I would like to make regarding this post.  You did say that the Norwegian Holding Ltd. earnings meeting did include what you said as "They did give a warning about potential over-supply".  This relates to my original comment about supply in excess of demand, especially if there is a recession.  This can cause pricing downturns and revenue problems which, in turn, result in cost cutting measures that hurt the Oceania cruise product.

 

Also to clarify, when you said "..they made 5.4 billion...", this means sales revenue.  My look on the internet, within the last hour, showed a financial report with 759+ million in profit (I believe for fiscal 2017).  Hence, total profit was about equal to the cost of one new ship.

 

A final comment regarding the two new ships.  It appears they will be (very?)  similar to the "O" ships. I believe the original intention was to build three "O" ships, but the third was cancelled (after the Norwegian merger?).  I assume that this means the new ships will have less "design costs" and less potential construction cost risks than a completely new design.  I was on the Marina recently and saw a women looking over design papers (somewhat similar to blueprints) showing dining furniture locations.

 

It may, or may not, be too late to comment on improvements you CC Oceania regulars would like to see on the new ships,

 

 

 

 

[RJB]

5 minutes ago, UDSpud said:

Thanks to ANO for the recent "on topic" post.

 

A couple of notes I would like to make regarding this post.  You did say that the Norwegian Holding Ltd. earnings meeting did include what you said as "They did give a warning about potential over-supply".  This relates to my original comment about supply in excess of demand, especially if there is a recession.  This can cause pricing downturns and revenue problems which, in turn, result in cost cutting measures that hurt the Oceania cruise product.

 

Also to clarify, when you said "..they made 5.4 billion...", this means sales revenue.  My look on the internet, within the last hour, showed a financial report with 759+ million in profit (I believe for fiscal 2017).  Hence, total profit was about equal to the cost of one new ship.

 

A final comment regarding the two new ships.  It appears they will be (very?)  similar to the "O" ships. I believe the original intention was to build three "O" ships, but the third was cancelled (after the Norwegian merger?).  I assume that this means the new ships will have less "design costs" and less potential construction cost risks than a completely new design.  I was on the Marina recently and saw a women looking over design papers (somewhat similar to blueprints) showing dining furniture locations.

 

It may, or may not, be too late to comment on improvements you CC Oceania regulars would like to see on the new ships,

 

 

 

 

I don't think here needs to be many major improvements on the new ships.  The current O ships are wonderful and give us just about everything we want.  I guess there is always room for improvements in areas that I can't think of now so lets see how that goes.  Can't wait for the new ships.     

[LHT28]

Just  a thought

In a recession  he with the most ships  may be the one in trouble 

JMO

[RJB]

15 hours ago, LHT28 said:

Just  a thought

In a recession  he with the most ships  may be the one in trouble 

JMO

Or the one's with the deep pockets.   Carnival came thru the last few recessions in good shape.   Hard to know what is in the bank.  Time will tell.  

 

[SMNYCruise]

19 hours ago, cbb said:

 yes, we would be sailing Viking totally for the itinerary.  Uniworld just doesn't go to enough places that I want to see on the Nile, and Viking does. 

 

I wouldn't particularly care about the food and probably wouldn't have to deal with a snippy/overworked staff much (hopefully) but would like a comfy bed--Oceania has spoiled me!!!

 

We'd probably be doing a land tour of Turkey either before or after the Nile cruise--just have to work on getting the 2021 dates to link.  If not, we'd spend some time in Greece in between the two. 

 

With our luck, international relations would take a turn and both Turkey and Egypt would get cancelled.  (Even O has done this to us--both Instanbul and some Egyptian ports, so it's try try again!)

 

thanks y'all!

 

 

 

I was surprised when comparing the Viking to the Uniworld 12 Day Egypt and Nile trip. I always thought Viking was the "cheaper" alternative.  Turns out that Uniworld was $1,300 per person cheaper (we got a pay in full promotion), and includes transfers, even if you don't book their air. Trips are very similar. Uniworld uses the Four Seasons Cairo at Nile and has a brand new ship., S.S. Sphinx. 

Edited February 22, 2019 by SMNYCruise

[Paulchili]

UDSpud - Viking Ocean is off to a very bad start for me.

Tonight at midnight was the time for me to book my specialty reservations. There are 2 specialty restaurants and being in PV-2 PH category we get 2 in each at T-70 (some categories picked earlier but several others will pick later - I pity them). 

I was able to book one of the 2 specialties without much problems but the second one had NO reservations for 2 at 6, 6:30 or 7 PM on ANY of the 22 days of the cruise. We would not mind sharing a table but the only choices are table for 2 or "invite". To invite you need a name and booking number of the other party and I don't know anyone on that cruise.  What about those people in my category from the East Coast that did not stay up till 3 AM to get their first shot at booking - they will surely be surprised in the morning.

This is a terrible start in my book as food on a cruise is a priority for me.

Let's see what I can do on the phone in AM.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Paulchili

[Paulchili]

Correction to the above post. Only because I am stubborn I discovered that there is some sort of flaw in their booking system. When I picked a time and date it indicated that no tables are available for that time, date, table size. I accidently clicked on confirm the booking anyway (even though it said not available) and it worked. I did the same thing for my second choice - identical result. Better lucky than good 

In fairness to Viking I felt I had to post this

[Redtravel]

Don’t worry about restaurant reservations. Viking and O both keep some time slots out of the online system. When you get on the ship, see the concierge or restaurant manager to reserve a table. If you have a butler, let him do it.  

[pinotlover]

Cbb;

 

Uniworld and Viking visits most of the same sites. Difference is Uniworld flies one up to Abu Simbel, at a cost, where Viking makes you pack and unpack to take a different boat that short ways. We prefer Uniworld in general by far, but not having to pack and unpack was a slam dunk!

 

On Viking vs Oceania. I put about zero credibility in the popularity polls, but last week’s CC release of cruise ship ratings was interesting. Oceania didn’t make a TopTen selection in any category. Viking scored more highly.

[Paulchili]

23 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

On Viking vs Oceania. I put about zero credibility in the popularity polls, but last week’s CC release of cruise ship ratings was interesting. Oceania didn’t make a TopTen selection in any category. Viking scored more highly.

Depends on who bothers to reply. I didn't.

Also, Viking asked me to vote for them - Oceania did not.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Paulchili

[pinotlover]

Paul;

 

As I posted, I put zero credibility in any of those polls! We locally have a few outstanding restaurants with one rising above all others. In our local paper, readers voted Cheddars #1 a couple years ago and Lone Star Steak House last year as best fine dining! Either as fine dining! 🤪 It be like voting Carnival best Premium Cruise Line!

[Flatbush Flyer]

16 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

Paul;

 

As I posted, I put zero credibility in any of those polls! We locally have a few outstanding restaurants with one rising above all others. In our local paper, readers voted Cheddars #1 a couple years ago and Lone Star Steak House last year as best fine dining! Either as fine dining! 🤪 It be like voting Carnival best Premium Cruise Line!

CC polls are about as far from scientifically rigorous as can be done. There are zero tests for validity nor are there any per capita adjustments for size of the cruise lines or passenger responses.

Viking's ocean operation remains a "wannabe" and, though "the jury is still out" on its self-proclaimed status as a "premium" cruise line, my personal reality is that every single person who has done both O and Viking, with whom I have conversed, says that Viking's food and service doesn't come close to Oceania's. As for the "new" Viking ships, Oceania's NEXT makeover of the R ships and the two new Allura class 1,000+ passenger ships will quickly handle any Viking threat threat to O's position as leader in the "premium" cruise industry segment.

[GeezerCouple]

1 hour ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

CC polls are about as far from scientifically rigorous as can be done. There are zero tests for validity nor are there any per capita adjustments for size of the cruise lines or passenger responses.

Viking's ocean operation remains a "wannabe" and, though "the jury is still out" on its self-proclaimed status as a "premium" cruise line, my personal reality is that every single person who has done both O and Viking, with whom I have conversed, says that Viking's food and service doesn't come close to Oceania's. As for the "new" Viking ships, Oceania's NEXT makeover of the R ships and the two new Allura class 1,000+ passenger ships will quickly handle any Viking threat threat to O's position as leader in the "premium" cruise industry segment.

 

The ratings are much like the city hotel rankings/ratings on TripAdvisor.

 

The "Best" hotel may be getting all those votes from folks who want to get the best "bargain", so "for the money that THEY spend", yes, XYZ Hotel is terrific.  And there are just more people who are spending lower or moderate amounts of money than there are those who are interested in paying for luxe accommodations, so that's where the "numbers" go.

But that doesn't make XYZ Hotel "better" than a luxury hotel., by most factors; those larger numbers of people haven't been to the luxe properties, so they can't vote for them (not honestly, and that's another can of worms, of course).

 

And then there is the fact that not everyone even wants a "luxury" hotel.  Some may feel uncomfortable, even if the price weren't a problem, in terms of dress or formality in the dining rooms, or whatever.

 

Same types of issues with cruise line voting, I'd think.

 

GC

[tvmovielover]

Paulchili, get the Viking App before you board, it is easy to make reservations or change them without having to stand in a line, etc.  Viking and Oceania each have pluses and minuses.  For me, Viking's biggest plus is all cabins have a balcony.  O still has the best food and the "R" ships and sometimes better and more itineraries.  I would be sorry to see either overextend the number of ships or cheap out any further.

[RJB]

15 hours ago, pinotlover said:

Cbb;

 

Uniworld and Viking visits most of the same sites. Difference is Uniworld flies one up to Abu Simbel, at a cost, where Viking makes you pack and unpack to take a different boat that short ways. We prefer Uniworld in general by far, but not having to pack and unpack was a slam dunk!

 

On Viking vs Oceania. I put about zero credibility in the popularity polls, but last week’s CC release of cruise ship ratings was interesting. Oceania didn’t make a TopTen selection in any category. Viking scored more highly.

Not correct.     Best overall in mid size ships went to Riviera  in some category's  with Marina there too.  Many top tens.   Have to spend some time looking thru all the areas.  

[ORV]

16 hours ago, GeezerCouple said:

 

The ratings are much like the city hotel rankings/ratings on TripAdvisor.

 

The "Best" hotel may be getting all those votes from folks who want to get the best "bargain", so "for the money that THEY spend", yes, XYZ Hotel is terrific.  And there are just more people who are spending lower or moderate amounts of money than there are those who are interested in paying for luxe accommodations, so that's where the "numbers" go.

But that doesn't make XYZ Hotel "better" than a luxury hotel., by most factors; those larger numbers of people haven't been to the luxe properties, so they can't vote for them (not honestly, and that's another can of worms, of course).

 

And then there is the fact that not everyone even wants a "luxury" hotel.  Some may feel uncomfortable, even if the price weren't a problem, in terms of dress or formality in the dining rooms, or whatever.

 

Same types of issues with cruise line voting, I'd think.

 

GC

Reminds me of the ratings from Trip Advisor on a Gulfshores area that I was going to that is full of delicious seafood places. Guess what the #1 rated restaurant there was? Yep, you guessed it, Waffle House. 

[Paulchili]

4 hours ago, tvmovielover said:

Paulchili, get the Viking App before you board, it is easy to make reservations or change them without having to stand in a line, etc.

Thank you - I have it. Anxious to see how it works once onboard.

[RJB]

1 hour ago, ORV said:

Reminds me of the ratings from Trip Advisor on a Gulfshores area that I was going to that is full of delicious seafood places. Guess what the #1 rated restaurant there was? Yep, you guessed it, Waffle House. 

At least CC ratings were easy to read.   Trip Adviser web site about the worst I have read.  Very small and jumbled.  I know we have to take all these ratings with a grain of salt but sometimes they do give us some good info.  I do find the CC boards are mostly good.   And the Waffle House pretty good for breakfast.   

[LesSails80435]

On 2/24/2019 at 1:53 AM, Paulchili said:

UDSpud - Viking Ocean is off to a very bad start for me.

Tonight at midnight was the time for me to book my specialty reservations. There are 2 specialty restaurants and being in PV-2 PH category we get 2 in each at T-70 (some categories picked earlier but several others will pick later - I pity them). 

I was able to book one of the 2 specialties without much problems but the second one had NO reservations for 2 at 6, 6:30 or 7 PM on ANY of the 22 days of the cruise. We would not mind sharing a table but the only choices are table for 2 or "invite". To invite you need a name and booking number of the other party and I don't know anyone on that cruise.  What about those people in my category from the East Coast that did not stay up till 3 AM to get their first shot at booking - they will surely be surprised in the morning.

This is a terrible start in my book as food on a cruise is a priority for me.

Let's see what I can do on the phone in AM.

 

Glad to see you found a workaround to restaurant reservations.

 

But I offer a word of caution, based on our 2015 4-week cruise on Viking Sea. Every single restaurant reservation made online was messed up when we boarded (and we were traveling with two other couples, so it was a bigger problem)--either time, date, number of people, or restaurant were different from our online confirmation.

 

In addition, online booking for excursions was also messed up. Not only was the time of excursions once confirmed often arbitrarily changed (again, remember that we were six people hoping to stay together), but they actually moved an included excursion on one day to right on top of a paid excursion. And, at least at that time, you didn't get an excursion ticket or an indication of tour time until after dinner the night before, so any concerns did not have time to be addressed. It took a major confrontation to get a refund for the paid excursion.

 

In retrospect, we should have sat down with the Excursion Desk upon boarding, and reviewed every single reservation; I suggest you do that for both excursions and restaurant reservations.

I love that O provides excursion tickets on boarding; any time changes are slight, and are communicated in as timely a manner as possible. I am hoping VO has gotten those problems worked out, but at the time staff was rude and difficult to work with; unlike O, front-line staff were not empowered to fix problems.

 

Love the VO ships (we had an Explorer suite--special occasion cruise); we were very unhappy with staff, communication, restaurant table spacing, etc., and found the food to be disappointing.

[RJB]

25 minutes ago, LesSails80435 said:

 

Glad to see you found a workaround to restaurant reservations.

 

But I offer a word of caution, based on our 2015 4-week cruise on Viking Sea. Every single restaurant reservation made online was messed up when we boarded (and we were traveling with two other couples, so it was a bigger problem)--either time, date, number of people, or restaurant were different from our online confirmation.

 

In addition, online booking for excursions was also messed up. Not only was the time of excursions once confirmed often arbitrarily changed (again, remember that we were six people hoping to stay together), but they actually moved an included excursion on one day to right on top of a paid excursion. And, at least at that time, you didn't get an excursion ticket or an indication of tour time until after dinner the night before, so any concerns did not have time to be addressed. It took a major confrontation to get a refund for the paid excursion.

 

In retrospect, we should have sat down with the Excursion Desk upon boarding, and reviewed every single reservation; I suggest you do that for both excursions and restaurant reservations.

I love that O provides excursion tickets on boarding; any time changes are slight, and are communicated in as timely a manner as possible. I am hoping VO has gotten those problems worked out, but at the time staff was rude and difficult to work with; unlike O, front-line staff were not empowered to fix problems.

 

Love the VO ships (we had an Explorer suite--special occasion cruise); we were very unhappy with staff, communication, restaurant table spacing, etc., and found the food to be disappointing.

May make us think twice before we book a cruise on VO.