Help! No passport, no birth certificate!

[CoyoteDreemurr]

12 hours ago, Itchy&Scratchy said:

 soooo, I guess mom doesn't want to use her original BC for this cruise, like PP said in post #153?

 

 

 

She lost her original BC, which she was able to use on her first 3 cruises. She was on a Carnival cruise when she was about 18-19 years old. I'm assuming she needed it for that cruise. The last 2 cruises were both Princess cruises. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by CoyoteDreemurr

[brillohead]

3 hours ago, CoyoteDreemurr said:

She lost her original BC, which she was able to use on her first 3 cruises. She was on a Carnival cruise when she was about 18-19 years old. I'm assuming she needed it for that cruise. The last 2 cruises were both Princess cruises. 

But why hasn't she gotten a new official copy of her original birth certificate?

THAT is the problem that we all have with this whole thing.  I simply cannot believe that she can't go to the county clerk's office where she was born and get a copy of the original, differently-spelled birth certificate.  

This story has changed and taken so many different turns since the original post.  But the fact of the matter is that she was issued a birth certificate originally, and she is able to obtain that birth certificate now but she doesn't want to because it's not spelled the way she wants it to be spelled. 

I'd much rather go on a cruise with a differently-spelled birth certificate than stay home alone all week!!!!

[Essiesmom]

The problem is that she needs ID with the original spelling to prove she is the person asking for it.  And all of her ID has the different spelling.  EM

[SRF]

2 hours ago, Essiesmom said:

The problem is that she needs ID with the original spelling to prove she is the person asking for it.  And all of her ID has the different spelling.  EM

 

There are other ways to prove who you are.

 

Vital Check has a lot of questions they ask to determine if you are you.  And they have info that I had a hard time remembering.

[brillohead]

5 hours ago, SRF said:

 

There are other ways to prove who you are.

 

Vital Check has a lot of questions they ask to determine if you are you.  And they have info that I had a hard time remembering.

I've done verification processes like that, where they were asking things like which address I had previously lived at from a list of addresses.... the problem was, the options were something like:

• 122 Main Street
• 442 Chicago Street
• 646 Foster Street
• 885 Capital Street
• 648 Foster Street

And the street I lived on BACK IN THE MID 1990s was one of the two Foster Street addresses and it was in an apartment complex that I only lived in for six months and for the life of me I couldn't remember which street number was the correct one!!!! 

If the options had been between 646 Foster Street and 838 Foster Street or 1086 Foster, it would have been a no-brainer, or I could have looked them up on Google Maps and figured out which number it was.  Or if I had actually lived there long enough to have a bunch of mail at that address, etc.  Or if I had actually purchased a house instead of just renting.  But two numbers right next to each other in an apartment complex of multiple buildings that all looked alike and can't be differentiated via Google Maps.... I was sweating bullets!

I must have picked properly, though, because I passed the verification process!  😄

[RocketMan275]

3 hours ago, brillohead said:

I've done verification processes like that, where they were asking things like which address I had previously lived at from a list of addresses.... the problem was, the options were something like:

 

I've been through that a couple of times.  You don't have to answer all the questions correctly.  I've been asked several times if I knew XXX.YYY.   I always answered no.  Then, I finally figured out that was my ex-wife's new married name.  It's not like we continue to exchange Christmas cards.  In fact, I haven't spoken to her in 25 years.

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by RocketMan275

[jagsfan]

6 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

I've been through that a couple of times.  You don't have to answer all the questions correctly.  I've been asked several times if I knew XXX.YYY.   I always answered no.  Then, I finally figured out that was my ex-wife's new married name.  It's not like we continue to exchange Christmas cards.  In fact, I haven't spoken to her in 25 years.

 

Wow! They do dig deep!

[brillohead]

14 hours ago, Essiesmom said:

The problem is that she needs ID with the original spelling to prove she is the person asking for it.  And all of her ID has the different spelling.  EM

Actually, I don't think that "fact" was ever established by the OP.  

I'm not going to bother going back and reading this whole entire drama-filled thread, but my recollection was that this all started because the OP's mom was denied a passport b/c the birth certificate she sent in didn't match the name she wanted on the passport. 

Rather than go through the steps to validate and verify her identity under the alternate spelling (which several other people here have claimed they were able to do themselves), and rather than going through the process of having a legal name change done through the courts, they wanted the county clerk to issue the mom a birth certificate with the preferred spelling on it. That's my understanding of why they were "denied a birth certificate" -- not because her current ID doesn't match the original name exactly, but because the family wanted it issued the preferred way, not the original name.

That's why I said, time and time again, that the mom should get a copy of her original birth certificate, her marriage license, and her driver license and just travel with that combination.  A birth certificate for Margaret Jones and a marriage license for Peggy Jones becoming Peggy Smith and a driver license for Peggy Smith is going to satisfy the cruise line at the beginning of the cruise and it's going to satisfy Customs and Border Patrol at the end of the cruise.

The ONLY entity that is being persnickety about the birth certificate name matching the preferred name is the Passport Office.  Nobody else.

The mom has cruised multiple times before with the original birth certificate and her driver license, and for a USA-based closed-loop cruise, she could do that again.  Mom could go on the cruise, then when she gets home she could either do the documentation validation verification process for why her name is spelled differently than on her birth certificate, or she could go through the courts and get a legal name change for a couple hundred dollars.

If I've remembered something wrong, feel free to point it out.  But I've put these theories up multiple times and the OP has never once denied anything I've said, and in fact agreed with me that the documents are all the same name, just different spelling variants of that name. 

 

I believe that the differences are even less extreme than the "Margaret vs Peggy" example I've used throughout this thread -- it's more likely to be something like "Marguerite vs Margaret" or "Margaret vs Margret" or "Marjorie vs Marge".  

If Mom presents to the cruise line or to Border Patrol with documents with the same basic name and the same exact date of birth and the relevant bridging documents, she won't have any problems at all for a USA-based closed-loop cruise.

[RocketMan275]

8 hours ago, brillohead said:

Actually, I don't think that "fact" was ever established by the OP.  


That's why I said, time and time again, that the mom should get a copy of her original birth certificate, her marriage license, and her driver license and just travel with that combination.  A birth certificate for Margaret Jones and a marriage license for Peggy Jones becoming Peggy Smith and a driver license for Peggy Smith is going to satisfy the cruise line at the beginning of the cruise and it's going to satisfy Customs and Border Patrol at the end of the cruise.

I'm not sure it's that simple.  You've assumed there is a 'bridging document'.  Suppose:

Name on B/C is Anna Marie Johnson.

Name on marriage license is Ann Marie Johnson becoming Ann Marie Smith.

Name on D/L matches marriage license.

Where's the bridge?

 

You're also assuming that it is the Passport Office that is being picky.  

However, things have changed since 9/11 and Customs and Border Patrol may be just as picky.

 

Whether she can go on this cruise is irrelevant, she needs to clean this up and that requires a court order to change her name to the one she prefers.

[SRF]

10 hours ago, brillohead said:

Actually, I don't think that "fact" was ever established by the OP.  

I'm not going to bother going back and reading this whole entire drama-filled thread, but my recollection was that this all started because the OP's mom was denied a passport b/c the birth certificate she sent in didn't match the name she wanted on the passport. 

Rather than go through the steps to validate and verify her identity under the alternate spelling (which several other people here have claimed they were able to do themselves), and rather than going through the process of having a legal name change done through the courts, they wanted the county clerk to issue the mom a birth certificate with the preferred spelling on it. That's my understanding of why they were "denied a birth certificate" -- not because her current ID doesn't match the original name exactly, but because the family wanted it issued the preferred way, not the original name.

That's why I said, time and time again, that the mom should get a copy of her original birth certificate, her marriage license, and her driver license and just travel with that combination.  A birth certificate for Margaret Jones and a marriage license for Peggy Jones becoming Peggy Smith and a driver license for Peggy Smith is going to satisfy the cruise line at the beginning of the cruise and it's going to satisfy Customs and Border Patrol at the end of the cruise.

The ONLY entity that is being persnickety about the birth certificate name matching the preferred name is the Passport Office.  Nobody else.

The mom has cruised multiple times before with the original birth certificate and her driver license, and for a USA-based closed-loop cruise, she could do that again.  Mom could go on the cruise, then when she gets home she could either do the documentation validation verification process for why her name is spelled differently than on her birth certificate, or she could go through the courts and get a legal name change for a couple hundred dollars.

If I've remembered something wrong, feel free to point it out.  But I've put these theories up multiple times and the OP has never once denied anything I've said, and in fact agreed with me that the documents are all the same name, just different spelling variants of that name. 

 

I believe that the differences are even less extreme than the "Margaret vs Peggy" example I've used throughout this thread -- it's more likely to be something like "Marguerite vs Margaret" or "Margaret vs Margret" or "Marjorie vs Marge".  

If Mom presents to the cruise line or to Border Patrol with documents with the same basic name and the same exact date of birth and the relevant bridging documents, she won't have any problems at all for a USA-based closed-loop cruise.

 

Much of what you posted in NOT what occurred.

 

She did not have her BC (lost).  She could not get a new one, because the name on her BC is not the name she went by.  She did not have a passport, and could not get one without the BC.

 

The issue that was not resolved was whether she could have gotten a BC in her legal name (and then  a passport in that name) or whether, due to the difference in names, she could not get a copy of her BC at all.

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, SRF said:

 

Much of what you posted in NOT what occurred.

 

She did not have her BC (lost).  She could not get a new one, because the name on her BC is not the name she went by.  She did not have a passport, and could not get one without the BC.

 

The issue that was not resolved was whether she could have gotten a BC in her legal name (and then  a passport in that name) or whether, due to the difference in names, she could not get a copy of her BC at all.

I just went through the online process to order a copy of my B/C through the state where I was born.  A simple on-line form.  There was no requirement to prove my identity. 

[brillohead]

16 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

I'm not sure it's that simple.  You've assumed there is a 'bridging document'.  Suppose:

Name on B/C is Anna Marie Johnson.

Name on marriage license is Ann Marie Johnson becoming Ann Marie Smith.

Name on D/L matches marriage license.

Where's the bridge?

 

You're also assuming that it is the Passport Office that is being picky.  

However, things have changed since 9/11 and Customs and Border Patrol may be just as picky.

 

Whether she can go on this cruise is irrelevant, she needs to clean this up and that requires a court order to change her name to the one she prefers.

I realize that EXACT bridging documents don't exist -- that's the whole reason that the passport request was denied (or rather, kicked back for additional documentation).

However, the OP has already stated that the mother has cruised multiple times with just the original birth certificate and the current identification.  Her documentation DOES suffice for both the cruise line and CBP.  

[brillohead]

15 hours ago, SRF said:

 

Much of what you posted in NOT what occurred.

 

She did not have her BC (lost).  She could not get a new one, because the name on her BC is not the name she went by.  She did not have a passport, and could not get one without the BC.

 

The issue that was not resolved was whether she could have gotten a BC in her legal name (and then  a passport in that name) or whether, due to the difference in names, she could not get a copy of her BC at all.

This is the part that I think we all ASSUMED but that isn't actually they way it happened... from what I was able to piece together bit by bit as the story evolved over time.

I think (again, based on what the OP has told us, in haphazard fashion), that the OP's mom was trying to get a birth certificate IN HER PREFERRED NAME so that she could get a passport IN HER PREFERRED NAME.  

Nowhere do I recall seeing "they wouldn't give her a BC in her ORIGINAL name because her current identification is in her PREFERRED name"... just that they wouldn't give her one b/c the names weren't right.

If I get some time after finishing some other stuff, I'll go back and find the pieces in this thread that are making me think this way.  The OP's writing style and habit of only providing parts and pieces of pertinent information make it difficult to ascertain exactly what the issue is.

[SRF]

20 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

I just went through the online process to order a copy of my B/C through the state where I was born.  A simple on-line form.  There was no requirement to prove my identity. 

 

Every state is different.

 

Maybe I should try to get a copy of your birth certificate?   I would hope there is SOME security in the process.

[SRF]

7 hours ago, brillohead said:

This is the part that I think we all ASSUMED but that isn't actually they way it happened... from what I was able to piece together bit by bit as the story evolved over time.

I think (again, based on what the OP has told us, in haphazard fashion), that the OP's mom was trying to get a birth certificate IN HER PREFERRED NAME so that she could get a passport IN HER PREFERRED NAME.  

Nowhere do I recall seeing "they wouldn't give her a BC in her ORIGINAL name because her current identification is in her PREFERRED name"... just that they wouldn't give her one b/c the names weren't right.

If I get some time after finishing some other stuff, I'll go back and find the pieces in this thread that are making me think this way.  The OP's writing style and habit of only providing parts and pieces of pertinent information make it difficult to ascertain exactly what the issue is.

 

Better you than me.

 

The red is where I got that she could not get it in her preferred name.

[RocketMan275]

31 minutes ago, SRF said:

 

Every state is different.

 

Maybe I should try to get a copy of your birth certificate?   I would hope there is SOME security in the process.

That really doesn't change the facts about the process.  The system has to accommodate persons who do not live within the state or have easy access to state offices.  Would you have someone who lives in Florida travel to Alaska to get their B/C?

The security comes from requiring multiple forms of identification.  Have you ever applied for a STAR drivers license?  Even a passport isn't sufficient ID.

[RocketMan275]

8 hours ago, brillohead said:

This is the part that I think we all ASSUMED but that isn't actually they way it happened... from what I was able to piece together bit by bit as the story evolved over time.

I think (again, based on what the OP has told us, in haphazard fashion), that the OP's mom was trying to get a birth certificate IN HER PREFERRED NAME so that she could get a passport IN HER PREFERRED NAME.  

Nowhere do I recall seeing "they wouldn't give her a BC in her ORIGINAL name because her current identification is in her PREFERRED name"... just that they wouldn't give her one b/c the names weren't right.

If I get some time after finishing some other stuff, I'll go back and find the pieces in this thread that are making me think this way.  The OP's writing style and habit of only providing parts and pieces of pertinent information make it difficult to ascertain exactly what the issue is.

See post #28, from OP:  "Thank you so much, everybody! This should help us a lot! We had a friend get a hold of our congressman, but we haven't heard anything back yet. I'll start looking for an immigration lawyer. If all else fails, maybe we could try and get an Enhanced Driver's License or Nexus Card? Those are allowed for this cruise. All of my mom's stuff except for the old birth certificate had her new spelling on it. They're making her get a legal change, which could take months, to get a proper new birth certificate. As a last resort, my dad said he'd contact Princess Cruises directly. We may have a slight chance with that, as they have cruised with them twice before. "

 

OP admits that his Mom wants to change the content of a legal document, the B/C.  That requires a legal action, probably only through a court of law. 

We don't know the dates of her previous cruises so we don't know the identity requirements in effect at that time.  

Times have changed.  What used to be acceptable, no longer is.

OP will discover that an Enhanced License still requires a valid B/C.  BTW, only four states issue Enhanced Licenses.  

Probably the quickest way to get OP's mom on the cruise is to use a B/C in her original name as on her old B/C.  Then she would apply for a corrected D/L to match.  (Note, I had to do this to get a passport.)  After the cruise, Mom could get a court to make the desired changes.  

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by RocketMan275

[brillohead]

8 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

See post #28, from OP:  "Thank you so much, everybody! This should help us a lot! We had a friend get a hold of our congressman, but we haven't heard anything back yet. I'll start looking for an immigration lawyer. If all else fails, maybe we could try and get an Enhanced Driver's License or Nexus Card? Those are allowed for this cruise. All of my mom's stuff except for the old birth certificate had her new spelling on it. They're making her get a legal change, which could take months, to get a proper new birth certificate. As a last resort, my dad said he'd contact Princess Cruises directly. We may have a slight chance with that, as they have cruised with them twice before. "

 

OP admits that his Mom wants to change the content of a legal document, the B/C.  That requires a legal action, probably only through a court of law. 

We don't know the dates of her previous cruises so we don't know the identity requirements in effect at that time.  

Times have changed.  What used to be acceptable, no longer is.

OP will discover that an Enhanced License still requires a valid B/C.  BTW, only four states issue Enhanced Licenses.  

Probably the quickest way to get OP's mom on the cruise is to use a B/C in her original name as on her old B/C.  Then she would apply for a corrected D/L to match.  (Note, I had to do this to get a passport.)  After the cruise, Mom could get a court to make the desired changes.  

 

The highlighted part is the part I was remembering -- she wants her birth certificate in her PREFERRED name to match her current documents.

Doesn't say that she can't still get her ORIGINAL birth certificate.... just that she can't get her PREFERRED birth certificate without a legal name change.

[RocketMan275]

27 minutes ago, brillohead said:

The highlighted part is the part I was remembering -- she wants her birth certificate in her PREFERRED name to match her current documents.

Doesn't say that she can't still get her ORIGINAL birth certificate.... just that she can't get her PREFERRED birth certificate without a legal name change.

Actually, upon further reflection, I don't think she will be able to change the name on the birth certificate.  I think she would have to go to court to change her name to the one she prefers.  She was born as xxx yyy zzz.  That will never change.  She needs to get a judge to say her name is now xxx yyy qqq.  Some where in this thread OP said there wasn't enough time to do that. 

Part of the problem is OP and Mom are insisting that they should be allowed to go with the documentation they used before.  They don't understand that things have changed.

Probably just need to reschedule the cruise.

[capriccio]

3 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Probably just need to reschedule the cruise.

 

I think that the OP's update last week has been lost in the never ending comments:

 

On 3/17/2019 at 10:10 PM, CoyoteDreemurr said:

So I found out for sure (probably), I'm going on the cruise with my dad. Just thought I should update. I'll post pictures if there's a place to do so here. 

 

OP - I hope you and your dad have a great cruise!

[CoyoteDreemurr]

5 hours ago, brillohead said:

The highlighted part is the part I was remembering -- she wants her birth certificate in her PREFERRED name to match her current documents.

Doesn't say that she can't still get her ORIGINAL birth certificate.... just that she can't get her PREFERRED birth certificate without a legal name change.

They wouldn't give her a new BC because literally everything has the new spelling on it. I think the baptismal certificate is the only thing we have with the old one on it, not including the old BC. 

[brillohead]

5 hours ago, CoyoteDreemurr said:

They wouldn't give her a new BC because literally everything has the new spelling on it. I think the baptismal certificate is the only thing we have with the old one on it, not including the old BC. 

 

Are you saying they wouldn't give her a copy of her original birth certificate with the original spellings on it?

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, brillohead said:

 

Are you saying they wouldn't give her a copy of her original birth certificate with the original spellings on it?

That's exactly how I read it. 

[RocketMan275]

9 hours ago, CoyoteDreemurr said:

They wouldn't give her a new BC because literally everything has the new spelling on it. I think the baptismal certificate is the only thing we have with the old one on it, not including the old BC. 

Let's define some terms:

When you say "a new BC" are you talking about a BC with the new spelling?

When  you say "a new BC" are you talking about a BC with the original spelling?

 

Seems to me you wanting the state to issue a BC with spelling with the "new spelling".

[SRF]

On 3/21/2019 at 9:19 AM, RocketMan275 said:

That really doesn't change the facts about the process.  The system has to accommodate persons who do not live within the state or have easy access to state offices.  Would you have someone who lives in Florida travel to Alaska to get their B/C?

The security comes from requiring multiple forms of identification.  Have you ever applied for a STAR drivers license?  Even a passport isn't sufficient ID.

 

That is my point.  The person said they did not have to verify their identity for their state of birth.  So, for their state, I guess I could get a copy of THEIR BC.

 

I do not live in my state of birth.  As I have stated earlier, I had to get a replacement BC.  My state of birth uses VitalCheck.  For verification it asked all sorts of questions from my life.  Schools, addresses, etc.  A LOT of things, that to get them all right, you would pretty much have to be the person.