Viking Sky position, adrift off Norway Coast and evacuating Passengers & Crew

[Coaster 19]

Hi chengkp75,

 

Have really enjoyed your well informed posts, someone with knowledge and experience makes a huge difference to the forum. Have one question. My understating is that all VO ships have  fixed propellers not Azipods the paragraph below is pasted from wikipedia, which I accept is not infallible. Would this make any difference to your comments?

 

Like most modern cruise ships, Viking Sky has a diesel-electric propulsion. She has four MAN 32/44CR series main diesel generators: two 9-cylinder engines rated at 5,040 kW (6,760 hp) and two 12-cylinder engines producing 6,720 kW (9,010 hp) each. This power plant produces electricity for all shipboard consumers, including two 7,250-kilowatt (9,720 hp) electric propulsion motors driving six-bladed fixed-pitch propellers with a diameter of 4.5 metres (15 ft).[10] This propulsion system gives her a service speed of 17 knots (31 km/h; 20 mph) and maximum speed of 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph).[7]

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, volk904 said:

Who know how much the quoted crew member actually knew about the ships operation but his quote saying the Lifeboats could not be lowered because of no power does not sound right to me. After all life boats standards are set to evaluate a sinking ship and in a sinking ship you lose power. Would there not be some kind of backup or method to lower the life boats on modern ships?  I am thinking a manual hand crank method of some kind?  I am not saying they should have used them in this situation because of the rough seas only that no way sounds wrong.

 

Also as more and more cruise ships go away from putting life vest in the cabins his issue about the difficulty in getting them in this case is interesting. Now I know this ship is much smaller the life boat deck is closer to the water than then larger cruise ships. I don't think waves get up to deck 5 much.

Haven't seen the interview with a crew member that you mention, can you provide a link?  But, ignorance by the crew of some basic safety knowledge is a problem with many cruise ships.  International regulations only require a 4 hour classroom instruction into "personal safety and social conscious" for the majority of cruise ship crew, and that along with the safety drills and some training pertinent to their own safety duties is all many crew members get.  So, only those whose duty it is to prepare and launch the lifeboats and life rafts will really know how to do so.  On the other hand, the USCG requires that every crew member on a US flag ship who has a safety duty assigned be a fully credentialed mariner, and have a 40 hour basic safety course in firefighting and lifesaving equipment.

 

Now, to launching the boats, this must be able to be done without any power on the ship.  Many lifeboat davits (the arms, winches and cables that hold the boats) are of the "gravity" type.  This means that the operator merely raises a brake lever, releasing a brake, and gravity will pull the boat down to the embarkation deck, where the operator sets the brake again.  Once the boat is loaded, either the operator on deck, or a crew in the boat can raise the brake lever again (a cable runs from the boat to the brake lever, and pulling on the cable raises the lever), and lower the boat to the water.  Releasing the boat from the hooks on the cables is done mechanically in the boat.  Another method is to use "stored energy", where there is a reservoir of hydraulic fluid under pressure that when a valve is opened will drive a hydraulic motor to move the lifeboat to the outboard position, where then the winch to lower the boat is of the gravity type.  When the ship has power, an electrical driven pump provides the hydraulic power for the davit, and this also recharges the stored hydraulic fluid when needed.  Boats are retrieved using an electric motor to drive the winch in the "raise" direction, but this isn't a concern in an emergency, since the boat is only going one way; down.

 

Even the Titanic's lifeboats were lowered without power.  This is not something new.

 

Even davit launched life rafts can be launched without power, albeit much more slowly.  The rafts used by the crew are picked up by a davit "crane" and swung out, inflated and lowered to the embarkation deck.  The crew gets in, and the operator raises the brake handle and gravity again lowers the raft to the water.   When the raft is disconnected, if there is no power, the crew on deck will wind the cable back up by a handle, and repeat the procedure.  This is of course slower, and more tiring than using the electrical winch to retrieve the cable, but it works.  

 

Also note that the electric motors to drive the lifeboat and life rafts winches are powered by the emergency generator, which is totally separate from the main electrical system when a ship blacks out, and comes on line automatically, and this generator is always located up high in the ship so it will keep running even if the engine room is flooded.

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, Coaster 19 said:

Hi chengkp75,

 

Have really enjoyed your well informed posts, someone with knowledge and experience makes a huge difference to the forum. Have one question. My understating is that all VO ships have  fixed propellers not Azipods the paragraph below is pasted from wikipedia, which I accept is not infallible. Would this make any difference to your comments?

 

Like most modern cruise ships, Viking Sky has a diesel-electric propulsion. She has four MAN 32/44CR series main diesel generators: two 9-cylinder engines rated at 5,040 kW (6,760 hp) and two 12-cylinder engines producing 6,720 kW (9,010 hp) each. This power plant produces electricity for all shipboard consumers, including two 7,250-kilowatt (9,720 hp) electric propulsion motors driving six-bladed fixed-pitch propellers with a diameter of 4.5 metres (15 ft).[10] This propulsion system gives her a service speed of 17 knots (31 km/h; 20 mph) and maximum speed of 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph).[7]

Not in the slightest.  The scenario I sketched out was based on a ship with shafted propellers, not azipods, but the difference between the two systems is so small in a situation like this as to be negligible.  My personal preference would be for 5 9-cylinder engines instead of two small and two large engines, but that's just my engineer's caution, and conflicts with the accountant's cost saving, as the 5 engines would cost more than 4, and require more space.  I like the multiple smaller engine layout (many ships have either 4 large engines or 6 smaller engines), because of the flexibility and additional redundancy, and also because in 90% of the time you would have one engine in "standby" mode, so that if a blackout happens, this engine is ready to start and the automation will get it up and running almost before the engineer knows what is happening other than all the lights went out.   This standby engine will put itself on line and restart the power.  If all 4 of the engines are running to make best speed, and they all trip off, there is no standby that the automation can move to.  Just my preference, not a real safety concern.

[lc73]

First off, wishing the best to all passengers of this horrific cruise, particularly those few that suffered broken  bones or to anyone suffering from trauma from this event.

 

A few questions for  gretschwhtfalcon  or for anyone else on this cruise who is comfortable talking about the cruise. I get very nervous about cruises and going on the Sky shortly and answers to any of these questions below would be appreciated.

 

About how long was the power off?

Were a lot of people having to sleep on the floors?

Were the restroom functional during this time?  (Could the toilets flush?  Did the restrooms have lights?)

Could one wash their hands in the restrooms after using facilities?

How long did people stay in the muster areas for those not evacuated?  Were they able to return to their cabins?

How long between the alarm to go to muster and either disembarkation or access to the cabins again?

Was food and non-alcoholic drinks available during the time passengers were in the muster area?

 

Thoughts go out to anyone still suffering from this experience. Wish all the passengers and crew the very best.

[morrfran]

I am curious about something not previously mentioned. I’m a cruise traveler (usually Cunard) and was surprised at the movement of furniture-particularly in the area facing windows in the often-seen videos of very large moving objects. And it appeared that furniture was not heavy nor fastened down as I believe I’ve seen on other ships. Perhaps the severe ship movement bypassed such controls but it still surprised me. There’s what appears to be a very large sort of planter rolling back and forth for example. And rather flimsy looking chairs sailing around. Is this usual sort of furniture/fittings for a passenger ship? Or is this what one would expect with severe ship movement?

[Clay Clayton]

10 hours ago, oann said:

. The only way to stay completely safe is to never leave your home.

Unless of course your home is hit by a tornado, hurricane, flood or wildfire. 

[Heidi13]

9 hours ago, SeaDog-46 said:

Thanks Heidi 13 - was about to say I only worked with gravity davits from 1964, but assumed what you confirmed above.

Another example of media reporting rubbish.

On the West Coast, we have been building ships since the 80's without lifeboats, haven't worked with lifeboats for over 20 years. Transport Canada accepted survival craft being entirely D/L liferafts or MES many years ago.

 

I never liked the D/L rafts, as getting 1,500 people off a ship in 25 person rafts in 30 mins or less was a daunting task. Fortunately, when I retired few if any D/L's remained. All major vessels have MES systems and multiple rescue boats, which must have stored power regardless of whether they are luffing style or radial davits.

 

If ever aboard a cruise ship or ferry, suggest checking out the new davits, as they bear little resemblance to what we used many years ago. In the old days you could walk up to a davit and have it figured out in seconds. Now they are a mass of pipes, pumps, accumulators and valves.

 

Noted you started well before me, as my first ship wasn't until 1975, when i joined P&O's cadet training ship in London, bound for New Zealand. Which company did you do your time with?

[gatour]

14 minutes ago, Clay Clayton said:

Unless of course your home is hit by a tornado, hurricane, flood or wildfire. 

Or you miss a step while coming down the stairs from the second floor, like me.  Did a nasty strain on my ankle that left me limping for a month.

 

Oann, thanks for you perspective on the area the ship was sailing in.

[just_dont]

Unless of course your home is hit by a tornado, hurricane, flood or wildfire. 

... or earthquake.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Hanoj]

@chengkp75 here is the article from yesterday that has interview comments from a crew member, allegedly:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2019/03/25/viking-cruise-ship-inside-look-during-storm-and-rescue/3269597002/

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Hanoj
wrong link

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, Hanoj said:

@chengkp75 here is the article from yesterday that has interview comments from a crew member, allegedly:

 

https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/travel/cruises/2019/03/25/inside-viking-sky-cruise-ship-after-rescue/3271526002/

Can't access since I'm not a subscriber, and don't care enough about this one article to spend $10 on.

[Hanoj]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Can't access since I'm not a subscriber, and don't care enough about this one article to spend $10 on.

I'm not a subscriber either. I initially posted the incorrect link. I don't know if this will succeed:

 

 https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2019/03/25/viking-cruise-ship-inside-look-during-storm-and-rescue/3269597002/

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, Hanoj said:

I'm not a subscriber either. I initially posted the incorrect link. I don't know if this will succeed:

 

 https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2019/03/25/viking-cruise-ship-inside-look-during-storm-and-rescue/3269597002/

Thanks.  Fairly typical report from short term employee, and likely entertainment staff.  Don't doubt ship was rolling heavily, but not 45* as stated, as nearly every ship when listed 45* would have the promenade deck in the water.  Totally ignorant about lifeboats, and yes, storing lifejackets on the promenade deck can cause difficulties, but that's what the crew are there for, to assist the passengers, and if they were out on the open deck without being tied off, then their supervisor should be fired, as this is basic seamanship.  There are trade offs between lifejackets in cabins  and in central locations, you can argue either way, and IMO allows either.

[Silkroad]

I was able to use both links, in incognito mode. It's sobering to see more photos of the destruction within the ship. BTW, I have seen many inaccurate "news" articles about this incident, two of them this morning. I hope everyone remembers to read the fine print, in which you'll find the term, "evolving story", which means they may report every snippet, even from sources who know nothing factual.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Silkroad

[Jim Avery]

1 hour ago, morrfran said:

I am curious about something not previously mentioned. I’m a cruise traveler (usually Cunard) and was surprised at the movement of furniture-particularly in the area facing windows in the often-seen videos of very large moving objects. And it appeared that furniture was not heavy nor fastened down as I believe I’ve seen on other ships. Perhaps the severe ship movement bypassed such controls but it still surprised me. There’s what appears to be a very large sort of planter rolling back and forth for example. And rather flimsy looking chairs sailing around. Is this usual sort of furniture/fittings for a passenger ship? Or is this what one would expect with severe ship movement?

You mention Cunard.  I was on a transatlantic crossing on QE2 in the '80s when Captain Portet decided to sail into the remnants of a hurricane.  Among other things, three of the 4 pianos on board came adrift and caused severe damage sliding back and forth with the heavy rolls.  86 persons were injured.  Large windows some 90' above the water line were smashed in and QE2 arrived in Southampton 1.5 days late (on a 5 day crossing).  There are many videos of other ships showing similar, and worse, furniture, etc. adrift.  Heavy rolling will cause the strangest things to come adrift. 

[orvil]

There was a video that showed one of lounges with a piano bolted to the deck. Furniture was moving and potted plants were rolling.  I remember thinking at the time that the safest place would be in one of the corridors where there was less chance of being hit or crushed by moving debris.

 

A few hours later, I saw a video of the same lounge and the piano had broken free from its attachment, turned on it's top like a turtle and slid across the floor.  

 

As a former flight attendant, we were taught to always be aware of our surroundings.  In an event such as this, you have to think about your safety and protect yourself from injury.  Once you are injured, you are not able to help yourself and must rely on others.  I would have left that lounge asap.  All you need during this incident is to break a wrist or leg and try to evacuate or swim.  It won't have a happy ending. 

 

Jumping into one of these slides is a blast.  But, I'd hate to have to do it for real.  Any exposed skin will burn because of the friction.  Siting in an open raft in a swimming pool is sporty.  I'd hate to have to do it in open ocean.  

[Silkroad]

11 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

OTOH Cruise Critic is full of posts wingeing about missed ports.  "The only reason I booked this cruise was to call on X..."  You can't please everybody.

I was thinking the same thing. OMG you should have heard the moaning, and seen the surly expressions on our Baltic cruise (not on Viking) last summer. We missed SPB entirely due to high winds, and instead spent two days at anchor, hoping for a break that would allow us to approach the port. Weather happens. Both the weather and the sea are unpredictable, so we're taking a statistically small, but very real, risk each time we board a vessel. If we're not prepared to accept that risk, we should stay on land.

[Silkroad]

13 hours ago, Maya1234 said:

Glad to see I wasn’t the only person obsessed with the woman tweeting the whole saga

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/im-obsessed-with-this-woman-who-was-tweeting-abou

 

 

I was impressed by the informational posts made by this intrepid woman. I was less impressed that she posted invasive photos of people sleeping, as well as the identifiable faces of other passengers. I realize that some people seem to have no concept of personal image privacy these days, but I would never post photos of peoples' faces without their permission. 

[philw1776]

51 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Thanks.  Fairly typical report from short term employee, and likely entertainment staff.  Don't doubt ship was rolling heavily, but not 45* as stated, as nearly every ship when listed 45* would have the promenade deck in the water.  Totally ignorant about lifeboats, and yes, storing lifejackets on the promenade deck can cause difficulties, but that's what the crew are there for, to assist the passengers, and if they were out on the open deck without being tied off, then their supervisor should be fired, as this is basic seamanship.  There are trade offs between lifejackets in cabins  and in central locations, you can argue either way, and IMO allows either.

To show you how desperate USA Today reporters are for stories on this incident, USA Today reached out to me to be interviewed.
I declined.  What do I know???

[zitsky]

19 minutes ago, Silkroad said:

I was impressed by the informational posts made by this intrepid woman. I was less impressed that she posted invasive photos of people sleeping, as well as the identifiable faces of other passengers. I realize that some people seem to have no concept of personal image privacy these days, but I would never post photos of peoples' faces without their permission. 

 

I've never thought to blank out faces when taking a picture of a crowd or a street scene.  I don't know how.   But this person is tech savvy so you may have a point.

[Jim Avery]

There was a report on the Apple News app and the writer had so much wrong as to be laughable.  Weather, location, ship info, what happened, etc.  All completely wrong.  Tossing a coin would get him 50% right.  The media amazes me continually.  

[philw1776]

2 minutes ago, Jim Avery said:

There was a report on the Apple News app and the writer had so much wrong as to be laughable.  Weather, location, ship info, what happened, etc.  All completely wrong.  Tossing a coin would get him 50% right.  The media amazes me continually.  

The late Michael Crichton wrote an insightful essay on the topic of media disinformation.

 

http://larvatus.com/michael-crichton-why-speculate/

 

Media carries with it a credibility that is totally undeserved. You have all experienced this, in what I call the Murray Gell-Mann Amnesia effect. (I refer to it by this name because I once discussed it with Murray Gell-Mann, and by dropping a famous name I imply greater importance to myself, and to the effect, than it would otherwise have.)

Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.

 

[Silkroad]

23 minutes ago, zitsky said:

 

I've never thought to blank out faces when taking a picture of a crowd or a street scene.  I don't know how.   But this person is tech savvy so you may have a point.

It’s not necessary to block out faces in photos of crowd scenes, but publishing close ups once required the permission of the subjects. I’m certain social media have blurred those lines, but those photos would have been powerful enough with the most identifiable subjects cropped. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Silkroad

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, Jim Avery said:

You mention Cunard.  I was on a transatlantic crossing on QE2 in the '80s when Captain Portet decided to sail into the remnants of a hurricane.  Among other things, three of the 4 pianos on board came adrift and caused severe damage sliding back and forth with the heavy rolls.  86 persons were injured.  Large windows some 90' above the water line were smashed in and QE2 arrived in Southampton 1.5 days late (on a 5 day crossing).  There are many videos of other ships showing similar, and worse, furniture, etc. adrift.  Heavy rolling will cause the strangest things to come adrift. 

Jim - ah!, the good old days of going to sea in real ships. Just think how many books we could write. After a 4 hr Bridge watch we needed many of these. 🍺 Close, but mine was a fair bit darker.

[just_dont]

It’s not necessary to block out faces in photos of crowd scenes, but publishing close ups once required the permission of the subjects. I’m certain social media have blurred those lines, but those photos would have been powerful enough with the most identifiable subjects cropped. 

And since she posted the photos publicly on Twitter, the media now has implicit 'permission' to use them, and those sleeping passengers are now spread over all the news/entertainment shows. I don't think the poster meant any ill will, but it certainly wasn't considerate of the subjects in the photos. I certainly wouldn't have been happy about it if I'd been in one of them.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk