Health inspections

[DarrenM]

And I will stop calling you shirley

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, DarrenM said:

If a ship fails a health inspection surely someone is going to lose a lot of money.

 

And surely folk will be gicen their money back and allowed to find a healthy cruise line?

 

And I would exepct the owners to be going to jail.

No.

No.

And no.

 

Poor scores have statistically had very little influence on bookings on cruise ships, mainly because the vast majority of cruisers don't know that they exist.  And no, you won't get a refund just for a failed score.  And the USPH has no jurisdiction to jail or even indict anyone, the most they can do is to stop the ship from either loading passengers in the US or to stop the ship from entering US waters.

[DarrenM]

Well that's a shame.

[Donald]

9 hours ago, DarrenM said:

If a ship fails a health inspection surely someone is going to lose a lot of money.

 

And surely folk will be gicen their money back and allowed to find a healthy cruise line?

 

And I would exepct the owners to be going to jail.

If a cruise ship has a shepherds hook at the swimming pool that is 6 inches too short, has a handwashing station that is 25 feet away from a BBQ (instead of 24 feet), forgets to place an asterix warning of eating undercooked meat next to the hamburger on the buffet menu, lets a waiter place a wine glass upside-down on a dining table, and allows a woman with open-toed shoes to take a galley tour, it can fail a USPH Inspection.

 

If this happens on your cruise, should they refund your cruise fare?

Do you really think that there is a healthier cruise line to go to?

If you owned a cruise line and the above scenario happened on one of your ships, would you expect to be jailed?

 

Incidentally, scenarios like the above occur nearly every day on many ships, and the passengers miraculously all survive it.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Donald

[AmazedByCruising]

 

13 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

So, the USPH, whose mandate is to prevent the introduction of infectious diseases into the US by vessels (along with other missions), works with the experts from the CDC to determine how best to prevent this.

 

That was actually my point. There is no introduction of infectious diseases by cruise ships. 

 

The rules seem to be aimed at people not getting sick on board. Undercooked food, fresh fish, whole eggs, cross contamination, flies, slotted screws. As if they are checking a land based restaurant, but this time with rules that would make most small restaurants go bankrupt because they can't pay for a compliance officer whose job it is to check screws and tiles. 

 

While it's nice to not get sick on a ship because a cook didn't wash his hands, IMHO, that's not the intended purpose or mandate for USPH. What kind of infectious diseases would now be not introduced to the US because the ships are checked for not having slotted screws in the galley? Ebola? HIV? Noro? Measles?

[DarrenM]

7 hours ago, Donald said:

If a cruise ship has a shepherds hook at the swimming pool that is 6 inches too short, has a handwashing station that is 25 feet away from a BBQ (instead of 24 feet), forgets to place an asterix warning of eating undercooked meat next to the hamburger on the buffet menu, lets a waiter place a wine glass upside-down on a dining table, and allows a woman with open-toed shoes to take a galley tour, it can fail a USPH Inspection.

 

If this happens on your cruise, should they refund your cruise fare?

Do you really think that there is a healthier cruise line to go to?

If you owned a cruise line and the above scenario happened on one of your ships, would you expect to be jailed?

 

Incidentally, scenarios like the above occur nearly every day on many ships, and the passengers miraculously all survive it.

I am fairly comfortable in the knowledge that you knew I was generalizing about major health inspection failures and not referring to tiny things like you mention here.

 

Though I would jail the owner if my beer was served warm.

[DarrenM]

Not that I am chief jailer or anything before you explain how the justice system works.

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

 

That was actually my point. There is no introduction of infectious diseases by cruise ships. 

 

The rules seem to be aimed at people not getting sick on board. Undercooked food, fresh fish, whole eggs, cross contamination, flies, slotted screws. As if they are checking a land based restaurant, but this time with rules that would make most small restaurants go bankrupt because they can't pay for a compliance officer whose job it is to check screws and tiles. 

 

While it's nice to not get sick on a ship because a cook didn't wash his hands, IMHO, that's not the intended purpose or mandate for USPH. What kind of infectious diseases would now be not introduced to the US because the ships are checked for not having slotted screws in the galley? Ebola? HIV? Noro? Measles?

By keeping the ships clean and sanitary, the passengers don't get sick onboard, and then disembark in the US to spread their illness.  What diseases aren't transmitted on cruise ships because of the VSP?  How about salmonella, e coli, botulism, cholera, listeria, staphylococcus, shigellosis, Legionnaire's, all of which have been essentially eliminated from cruise ships, yet how many outbreaks of salmonella and e coli or food recalls over the last few years in the US?  How many buildings have had outbreaks of Legionnaire's due to unsanitary AC systems?  Unfortunately, what has stepped in to take the place of these viruses and bacteria is the opportunistic noro virus to fill the disease void.

 

Since you hear about restaurants and grocery chains having outbreaks or recalls, yet never on cruise ships, who am I to argue with epidemiologists with world reputations, who do deal with everything from salmonella to Ebola, their transmission vectors and mediation methodology, about whether or not slotted screws contribute to preventing these outbreaks.  They say this is industry "best practices", and it seems to work, so who argues with success?  Why don't cruise ships have mice or rats, when virtually every food establishment in NYC has to deal with rodent control on a daily basis?  Luck?  Chance?  Perhaps the VSP?

[BruceMuzz]

9 hours ago, DarrenM said:

I am fairly comfortable in the knowledge that you knew I was generalizing about major health inspection failures and not referring to tiny things like you mention here.

 

Though I would jail the owner if my beer was served warm.

I teach Public Health courses for cruise ship employees. I have a very thorough working knowledge of all 239 pages of the latest 2018 USPH Operations Manual. As a cruise Ship Hotel Manager, my ships received more perfect 100 scores than any other Hotel Manager in history. 

So, let's look at "major health inspection failures" that you referred to. The Carnival Fantasy failed with the worst score of 2019 - and a score so low that we see it only a few times in a decade. That is a major health inspection failure.

 

If you bothered to read the inspection report for Carnival Fantasy (almost no passengers read these reports that are readily available online) you would have found that nearly all the violations were of a technical nature, and had little bearing on any specific or immediate health threats.

Of the immediate health threats, a few dirty spoons and other utensils were found. In land-based restaurants this happens every day. Sneeze guards had gaps between them. Most land-based restaurants do not even have sneeze guards. A single fly was observed in 2 different food pantries. In land-based restaurants this happens every day. An outdoor restaurant on the ship had "no fewer that 15 flies" buzzing around some bread. I have never eaten at any land-based outdoor restaurant that had only 15 flies buzzing around. Usually there are far more.

 

So this was a major cruise ship health inspection failure - which resulted in zero reported illnesses.

Should the passengers on that voyage receive a refund?

Should the owner of the cruise line be jailed for this event?

 

If your answer is "yes", then just about every diner in nearly every restaurant in the UK should receive refunds, and the owners of all those restaurants should all be jailed as well. 

 

Should Carnival Corporation tighten up their operations to avoid all those technical issues in future?

Absolutely yes.

Should UK restaurants do a better, cleaner job in their operations by emulating the cruise lines?

Absolutely yes.

Edited August 17, 2019 by BruceMuzz

[AmazedByCruising]

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

By keeping the ships clean and sanitary, the passengers don't get sick onboard, and then disembark in the US to spread their illness.  What diseases aren't transmitted on cruise ships because of the VSP?  How about salmonella, e coli, botulism, cholera, listeria, staphylococcus, shigellosis, Legionnaire's, all of which have been essentially eliminated from cruise ships, yet how many outbreaks of salmonella and e coli or food recalls over the last few years in the US?  How many buildings have had outbreaks of Legionnaire's due to unsanitary AC systems?  Unfortunately, what has stepped in to take the place of these viruses and bacteria is the opportunistic noro virus to fill the disease void.

 

OK, I think we're talking about different things.

If I'm right you are saying that you're so much better of on a ship than in a local restaurant or elderly home, and that is because of the VSP. And I totally agree on those facts.

 

But that's USPH protecting passengers on a ship. Not USPH protecting the US from introducing diseases like those brought by immigrants on Ellis Island, which is their mandate. All diseases you mention are either from bad food or bad water, and more importantly, aren't contagious. Even cholera wouldn't spread in the US. 

 

If someone gets sick from eating raw chicken on a ship that's very unfortunate, and the reviews should be bad, maybe claims should be made, you name it. But that has nothing to do with introducing a disease into the US. So IMHO it's not USPH's business to make sure that people don't get sick on a ship.

 

 

 

[Donald]

1 hour ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

OK, I think we're talking about different things.

If I'm right you are saying that you're so much better of on a ship than in a local restaurant or elderly home, and that is because of the VSP. And I totally agree on those facts.

 

But that's USPH protecting passengers on a ship. Not USPH protecting the US from introducing diseases like those brought by immigrants on Ellis Island, which is their mandate. All diseases you mention are either from bad food or bad water, and more importantly, aren't contagious. Even cholera wouldn't spread in the US. 

 

If someone gets sick from eating raw chicken on a ship that's very unfortunate, and the reviews should be bad, maybe claims should be made, you name it. But that has nothing to do with introducing a disease into the US. So IMHO it's not USPH's business to make sure that people don't get sick on a ship.

 

 

 

You do make something of a valid point.

Many of the illnesses that VSP attempts to prevent are not contagious.

They are now even getting involved in life jackets and life saving hooks for swimming pools - which are not even related to illness.

But one of the illnesses they work very hard to control is Norovirus, one of the most contagious viruses on earth. That work alone is probably worth the price of admission. At any given time, 10% of the American public on land is suffering from some sort of NLV-related infection. At any given time less than 1% of cruise passengers calling at American ports are suffering the same - despite the fact that the crowded closed system of a cruise ship makes it far easier to spread the virus. We can thank VSP for that.

As for the other non-contagious illnesses that VSP is trying to control: Is it their mandate or duty to do this? Probably not. But how can we argue against a government organization that is working diligently to keep us healthy when we take a holiday?

 

Despite whatever bashing and complaining we might aim at VSP and their sometimes over-the-top requirements, the cruise industry is quite happy to let them take the lead in keeping passengers healthy and reducing liability exposure for the cruise line companies. I wish they would expand their coverage to airlines.

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

OK, I think we're talking about different things.

If I'm right you are saying that you're so much better of on a ship than in a local restaurant or elderly home, and that is because of the VSP. And I totally agree on those facts.

 

But that's USPH protecting passengers on a ship. Not USPH protecting the US from introducing diseases like those brought by immigrants on Ellis Island, which is their mandate. All diseases you mention are either from bad food or bad water, and more importantly, aren't contagious. Even cholera wouldn't spread in the US. 

 

If someone gets sick from eating raw chicken on a ship that's very unfortunate, and the reviews should be bad, maybe claims should be made, you name it. But that has nothing to do with introducing a disease into the US. So IMHO it's not USPH's business to make sure that people don't get sick on a ship.

 

 

 

Yes, we are talking about different things.  USPH is mandated to prevent infectious diseases into the US, not contagious diseases.  While things like e coli are not contagious (person to person), a person who has the disease can spread the disease to the food supply (through poor hand hygiene, just like noro), and thence to other persons.  Why would cholera not spread in the US, since its most common transmission vector is fecal-oral cross contamination, just like noro spreads, and most of the food borne diseases spread.

[AmazedByCruising]

 

 

16 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, we are talking about different things.  USPH is mandated to prevent infectious diseases into the US, not contagious diseases.  While things like e coli are not contagious (person to person), a person who has the disease can spread the disease to the food supply (through poor hand hygiene, just like noro), and thence to other persons.  Why would cholera not spread in the US, since its most common transmission vector is fecal-oral cross contamination, just like noro spreads, and most of the food borne diseases spread.

 

The reason cholera etc doesn't spread is because of hygiene in the US. Proper sewage systems, people not drinking infected water, etc. So even while cholera does come into the country, by plane, patients get hospitalized (or not), but that's it. 

Similar for E. coli. It doesn't even need a patient zero coming to the US. E. coli is everywhere, anyway. Getting sick is only stopped by land based HACCP rules, not swimming in infected lakes, chlorinating pools, etc. 

 

Well, Noro maybe different as it could affect a whole elderly home when a patient comes back from a cruise. But even then, the average visitor from another facility probably poses a bigger threat. 

 

18 hours ago, Donald said:

You do make something of a valid point.

 

This is a very rare occurrence, thank you! 

 

18 hours ago, Donald said:

Probably not. But how can we argue against a government organization that is working diligently to keep us healthy when we take a holiday?

 

Despite whatever bashing and complaining we might aim at VSP and their sometimes over-the-top requirements, the cruise industry is quite happy to let them take the lead in keeping passengers healthy and reducing liability exposure for the cruise line companies. I wish they would expand their coverage to airlines.

 

Well to be honest I think ships would be fighting Noro and Salmonella anyway. A local restaurant may get away with a few sick guests who are not sure that it was the restaurant or something they picked up at the office. But a ship having a serious problem has guests sending images of sick people to CNN as it happens.

 

And it does cost money and opportunities. In one report I read about a box of wine stored somewhere where dead flies could fall on the box. How many lives are saved by that rule? How much training does it cost to inform all galley crew that flies on a box with bottles of wine poses a threat? For opportunities: BBQs on deck. 

 

Similarly, you could enlarge the police force so there's one officer per 50 houses 24/7. It would be so much safer. But nobody would be able to afford a cruise, too. If VSP could remove the over-the-top requirements CLIA would be even happier I guess.

[julie3fan]

What an interesting thread.  Both in content provided by some very experienced people, and the very civil way they have conducted themselves when they disagreed on a point.  I wish all threads were conducted like this!

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said:

In one report I read about a box of wine stored somewhere where dead flies could fall on the box. How many lives are saved by that rule? How much training does it cost to inform all galley crew that flies on a box with bottles of wine poses a threat? 

How do you prove a negative?  I would assume that there is some anecdotal evidence about fly droppings on wine bottles (if not all the foil wrapper is removed before pouring), causing illness.  Again, I'm not an epidemiologist, so I won't question the experts, but feel free to ask.  There is a contact information on the CDC VSP website, and I have used it to question the water depth in swim diaper splash areas, when the VSP was being revised (originally there could be no standing water, but RCI complained that kids were burning their feet on the splash deck, so the VSP was modified to allow 2" of standing water).

[AmazedByCruising]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

How do you prove a negative?  I would assume that there is some anecdotal evidence about fly droppings on wine bottles (if not all the foil wrapper is removed before pouring), causing illness.  Again, I'm not an epidemiologist, so I won't question the experts, but feel free to ask.  There is a contact information on the CDC VSP website, and I have used it to question the water depth in swim diaper splash areas, when the VSP was being revised (originally there could be no standing water, but RCI complained that kids were burning their feet on the splash deck, so the VSP was modified to allow 2" of standing water).

 

It's hard to prove a negative. And there's probably more than anecdotal evidence. It's even hard to make the anecdote, "we drank wine and got sick. Someone did notice a fly on a box, that must have been the cause". 

 

How much I think that rules are way too strict, as if it's a hospital instead of a vacation on a ship, I do think that someone somewhere came up with a science based scenario. If a box is covered with flies, and you take out a bottle, and a fly gets stuck on the bottle, and stays there when opening the bottle, the fly or a piece of it, or its droppings, could land in the glass. Now, if that fly was carrying a disease, the guest might be infected. Then they put it in the manual. I suspect even US hospitals are held to lower standards.  

 

I won't ask VSP. I think they aren't going to spend much time and money on a curious guest (and shouldn't).

 

BTW, I wasn't one of the super cool kids brave enough to eat flies. 

 

EDIT: Somehow my response about standing water got removed. I'm glad the industry is able to to rectify rules that are "too safe".

Edited August 18, 2019 by AmazedByCruising

[angie7911922]

Hi, 

and did you know the cruise lines are paying for the inspection? 

[wowzz]

On 8/17/2019 at 8:47 AM, DarrenM said:

Though I would jail the owner if my beer was served warm.

I would jail the landlord if my beer was served cold! Lager, cold, beer, warm.

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, angie7911922 said:

Hi, 

and did you know the cruise lines are paying for the inspection? 

They may be paying directly, but you as the passenger are paying indirectly as you pay your fare.

[Donald]

7 hours ago, angie7911922 said:

Hi, 

and did you know the cruise lines are paying for the inspection? 

We have not mentioned Health Canada, a Canadian Government Inspection Group that has rules and standards that are nearly identical to USPH. They inspect all foreign flag ships calling at Canadian Ports. The one big difference - they do it free of charge.

[AmazedByCruising]

On 8/19/2019 at 4:24 PM, Donald said:

We have not mentioned Health Canada, a Canadian Government Inspection Group that has rules and standards that are nearly identical to USPH. They inspect all foreign flag ships calling at Canadian Ports. The one big difference - they do it free of charge.

 

Is there a similar organization in Europe? 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Is there a similar organization in Europe? 

The EU has adopted the ShipSan program for cruise ship sanitation, but it is up to each member state to enforce the regulations, each member state has their own freedom of information laws and there is no "central clearinghouse" for data like the CDC.

[AmazedByCruising]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

The EU has adopted the ShipSan program for cruise ship sanitation, but it is up to each member state to enforce the regulations, each member state has their own freedom of information laws and there is no "central clearinghouse" for data like the CDC.

 

Thank you! 

[angie7911922]

On 8/19/2019 at 10:24 PM, Donald said:

We have not mentioned Health Canada, a Canadian Government Inspection Group that has rules and standards that are nearly identical to USPH. They inspect all foreign flag ships calling at Canadian Ports. The one big difference - they do it free of charge.

 More and more countries are implementing these inspections. I think it is a good thing, however I do believe that the majority of passengers are ill-informed about these inspections and their scoring system. There is so much more involved than just the cleanliness  onboard. It goes from the medical center records, to the water in the pool.... 

[AmazedByCruising]

On 8/17/2019 at 11:16 PM, Donald said:

Despite whatever bashing and complaining we might aim at VSP and their sometimes over-the-top requirements, the cruise industry is quite happy to let them take the lead in keeping passengers healthy and reducing liability exposure for the cruise line companies.

 

Hi Donald, could you have a look over here and give your professional opinion?