PRINCESS SHIPS & CORONA VIRUS

[elliair]

1 minute ago, fragilek said:

 I think the boat was missed in this by the time China admitted there was an issue.  Not even sure if the market had been "legitimized"- if you could ever call it that before the world outside even knew about the issue.

The Chinese leaders tried to hide the outbreak until it was too late.  Millions left Wuhan and that's how it has spread throughout China and beyond.  We saw what happened to the doctor who tried to warn the world.  Now it's beyond panic time, it's time to make some wise decisions about yourself and family.  I got sick on our last cruise to Hawaii 2 days before debarkation.  There's no guarantees in this life.  DH and I were discussing it last night, and our upcoming Alaskan cruise in May might be our last.

[kent9xxx1]

5 crew members infected + virus can live on surface up to 9 days.  Good luck to the rest of the ship.  Very likely a bunch more will get infected in the upcoming days.

 

quarantined on the ship will increase the risk for people on the ship.  Don’t know why people was arguing so much about it just a day or two ago.

[fragilek]

4 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

In terms of the "testing those with a fever" (and checking for fever as "the" symptom)...

Is it known whether someone can be sick with this virus and NOT have a fever?

Or how long it takes from first becoming infected to have a fever (if ever), and are those  people contagious prior to having a fever (or if never getting a fever, but still infected)?

 

That's what bothers me about "testing those with fever"...

 

GC

 The most recent cases in France seem to suggest that you are able to spread it without a fever or any other symptoms.  The man came back to UK via France to ski - did not feel unwell or have fever now a further 6 have been infected  in France and UK by this man before he had any symptoms.  In fact it appears he was contacted after a someone in his business meeting in Singapore tested positive

[Outerdog]

1 hour ago, Earthworm Jim said:

spread through...or the HVAC system,

 

Please stop perpetuating this myth and GET EDUCATED on how the ventilation system works on ships.

 

One of the main reason that the guests are quarantined in their cabins most of the day, is that the AC in cabins is not shared or recirculated.  There are two AC systems on the ship.  One takes outside air, cools it, and supplies it to the cabins, in a one way flow.  This fresh air supplied to the cabins is almost balanced by the bathroom exhaust which takes the air to the outside, in a one way flow.  The fresh air supply is slightly greater than the exhaust to keep the cabin at a slight positive pressure relative to the outside, and to the passageway outside the cabin.  The AC controlled by the cabin thermostat is air within the cabin, that is recirculated within the cabin, passing over the individual cabin's cooler.

 

 

[elliair]

10 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

In terms of the "testing those with a fever" (and checking for fever as "the" symptom)...

Is it known whether someone can be sick with this virus and NOT have a fever?

Or how long it takes from first becoming infected to have a fever (if ever), and are those  people contagious prior to having a fever (or if never getting a fever, but still infected)?

 

That's what bothers me about "testing those with fever"...

 

GC

Not everyone gets a fever.  You can be a carrier and not show any symptoms at all for up to 14 days.  This is why it's spreading so fast.  People are sick but showing no symptoms.

 

For confirmed 2019-nCoV infections, reported illnesses have ranged from people with little to no symptoms to people being severely ill and dying. Symptoms can include:

• Fever
• Cough
• Shortness of breath

CDC believes at this time that symptoms of 2019-nCoV may appear in as few as 2 days or as long as 14 after exposure. This is based on what has been seen previously as the incubation period of MERS viruses.

The latest situation summary updates are available on CDC’s web page 2019 Novel Coronavirus, Wuhan, China.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/about/symptoms.html

 

[fragilek]

3 minutes ago, Outerdog said:

 

Please stop perpetuating this myth and GET EDUCATED on how the ventilation system works on ships.

 

One of the main reason that the guests are quarantined in their cabins most of the day, is that the AC in cabins is not shared or recirculated.  There are two AC systems on the ship.  One takes outside air, cools it, and supplies it to the cabins, in a one way flow.  This fresh air supplied to the cabins is almost balanced by the bathroom exhaust which takes the air to the outside, in a one way flow.  The fresh air supply is slightly greater than the exhaust to keep the cabin at a slight positive pressure relative to the outside, and to the passageway outside the cabin.  The AC controlled by the cabin thermostat is air within the cabin, that is recirculated within the cabin, passing over the individual cabin's cooler.

 

 I had read that and understand how that works for the cabin.  But how does it work for the people who are going outside for air - if you look at the video I posted - there seems to be quite a lot of them I imagine the inside cabins were quite full as always.

how is the air in corridors maintained does anyone know ?

 

[GeezerCouple]

Just now, elliair said:

Not everyone gets a fever.  You can be a carrier and not show any symptoms at all for up to 14 days.  This is why it's spreading so fast.  People are sick but showing no symptoms.

 

For confirmed 2019-nCoV infections, reported illnesses have ranged from people with little to no symptoms to people being severely ill and dying. Symptoms can include:

• Fever
• Cough
• Shortness of breath

CDC believes at this time that symptoms of 2019-nCoV may appear in as few as 2 days or as long as 14 after exposure. This is based on what has been seen previously as the incubation period of MERS viruses.

The latest situation summary updates are available on CDC’s web page 2019 Novel Coronavirus, Wuhan, China.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/about/symptoms.html

 

 

Right.

 

So what is the point of *first* screening people for "fever" and *then* testing those people, either on the ship or at other checkpoints (of which there are many, with those hand-held thermometers that do not require "touching")?

 

GC

[matadams4u]

4 minutes ago, fragilek said:

 The most recent cases in France seem to suggest that you are able to spread it without a fever or any other symptoms.  The man came back to UK via France to ski - did not feel unwell or have fever now a further 6 have been infected  in France and UK by this man before he had any symptoms.  In fact it appears he was contacted after a someone in his business meeting in Singapore tested positive

In terms of risk of spread the France and Singapore cases are probably the most worrisome right now - Singapore would have the most impact and is already causing some disruption.  It’s amazing to watch the amount of effort to contain even a single case and the risk a single case can cause.  Living in a place where thousands could find themselves unemployed if a single case emerged I notice people are cutting back and making sure they could make it a few weeks.  

[elliair]

8 minutes ago, kent9xxx1 said:

5 crew members infected + virus can live on surface up to 9 days.  Good luck to the rest of the ship.  Very likely a bunch more will get infected in the upcoming days.

 

quarantined on the ship will increase the risk for people on the ship.  Don’t know why people was arguing so much about it just a day or two ago.

In the Diamond Princess video above, people were touching the handrails and had no gloves on.  Even with gloves on, you are still transferring the virus from point A to point B and so forth.  Probably why they're still seeing people testing positive and some are still carriers but showing no signs of the infection - yet.

[NorthwestCruiser]

7 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

In terms of the "testing those with a fever" (and checking for fever as "the" symptom)...

Is it known whether someone can be sick with this virus and NOT have a fever?

Or how long it takes from first becoming infected to have a fever (if ever), and are those  people contagious prior to having a fever (or if never getting a fever, but still infected)?

 

That's what bothers me about "testing those with fever"...

 

GC

Excellent questions, and the answer appears to be "yes", assuming that the tests we have are accurate.   There is some controversy about whether one can have no symptoms at all and still infect other people, one study from Germany that claimed to find such a case was incorrect.    Chinese authorities believe that people are contagious prior to having a fever and I tend to believe them, they are the closest to the problem and despite some assumptions westerners may make about China, the hospital system Hunan  (a rich city of over 11 million people) is excellent and the research is world class.    They have been obsessing about SARS (a close cousin to this virus) for a decade and have had the money to spend on it.

 

[KL Smith]

16 hours ago, elliair said:

If Princess doesn't cancel, I would go.  We were on this same cruise for Thanksgiving.  Some people on board had what I call "the cruise cough."  If you have no worries about getting sick by all means go.  I never plan on getting sick either, but 2 days before getting back into port, I started getting the dreaded cough.  The woman in the cabin next to us from the day she boarded the ship until she debarked, she hacked, coughed, and barfed the whole 14 days.  Did our cabin steward bring her creeping crud over to our cabin?  Despite washing my hands constantly, it wasn't enough.  I was laid up for a month after we got home.  Worse creeping crud I ever had and got it on the ship.

 

We already planned an upcoming Alaskan cruise in May, like you, we would like to cancel.  We have trip insurance and cancel for any reason.  DH and I decided that this will probably be our last cruise on any ship.  We no longer find it relaxing and fun like we did in the past.  50 cruises for us is enough, we're done.

I know how you feel. We have a trans-Atlantic from Barcelona to Ft. Lauderdale for November booked and I am for the first time ever starting to think about land based holidays. After 50 cruises the industry has changed so much that sometime all the fun has gone about of it.

[elliair]

13 minutes ago, NorthwestCruiser said:

Excellent questions, and the answer appears to be "yes", assuming that the tests we have are accurate.   There is some controversy about whether one can have no symptoms at all and still infect other people, one study from Germany that claimed to find such a case was incorrect.    Chinese authorities believe that people are contagious prior to having a fever and I tend to believe them, they are the closest to the problem and despite some assumptions westerners may make about China, the hospital system Hunan  (a rich city of over 11 million people) is excellent and the research is world class.    They have been obsessing about SARS (a close cousin to this virus) for a decade and have had the money to spend on it.

 

But no vaccine for SARs.  Corona has now killed more people in 29 days than it did with SARs in several months.  Doesn't matter how "excellent" or "world class" you are, when you sandwich millions of people into a small area, eat exotic animals, do not practice good hygiene, stuff happens.  SARs, MERs, Ebola, Noro, on and on.  Then there's bio-warfare to mix in there.....

[capriccio]

Just now, elliair said:

Then there's bio-warfare to mix in there.....

 

Okay I bite.  What do the ellipses represent?

[NorthwestCruiser]

21 minutes ago, elliair said:

The Chinese leaders tried to hide the outbreak until it was too late.  Millions left Wuhan and that's how it has spread throughout China and beyond.  We saw what happened to the doctor who tried to warn the world.  Now it's beyond panic time, it's time to make some wise decisions about yourself and family.  I got sick on our last cruise to Hawaii 2 days before debarkation.  There's no guarantees in this life.  DH and I were discussing it last night, and our upcoming Alaskan cruise in May might be our last.

While China, um, puts public order ahead of free speech in a rather brutal way sometimes, I don't really think that they could have stopped the outbreak given the characteristics of this particular virus.   A virus outbreak like this is inevitable in the human population (that is evolution), scientists have known this for a long time and the script was written as soon as the Wright brothers left the ground.    While there may still be time to stop this one, there will be another one and Murphy's law says that it will happen at the worst possible time.   (Happening on Chinese New Year when 1 billion people are on the move, and at a time when the largest superpower has been taken over by an anti-science virus is as close to the worst possible time as I want to see.)

 

That is why we have organized society, that is why we have science, and that is why we have taxes.    There are experts out there who think about this stuff a lot and we really don't have much choice but to follow their advice and give them whatever support that we can.   We must hang together or we will all hang separately.   Time to forget about nationalism for this one and focus on solving the problem, we can get back to hating each other once the crisis is over.

[elliair]

3 minutes ago, NorthwestCruiser said:

While China, um, puts public order ahead of free speech in a rather brutal way sometimes, I don't really think that they could have stopped the outbreak given the characteristics of this particular virus.   A virus outbreak like this is inevitable in the human population (that is evolution), scientists have known this for a long time and the script was written as soon as the Wright brothers left the ground.    While there may still be time to stop this one, there will be another one and Murphy's law says that it will happen at the worst possible time.   (Happening on Chinese New Year when 1 billion people are on the move, and at a time when the largest superpower has been taken over by an anti-science virus is as close to the worst possible time as I want to see.)

 

That is why we have organized society, that is why we have science, and that is why we have taxes.    There are experts out there who think about this stuff a lot and we really don't have much choice but to follow their advice and give them whatever support that we can.   We must hang together or we will all hang separately.   Time to forget about nationalism for this one and focus on solving the problem, we can get back to hating each other once the crisis is over.

I agree, people right now seem to be in a panic mode.  BTW, I don't hate anyone, and don't make the mistake of watching out for yourself and loved ones with avoiding others as hating anyone.  It's that evolutionary thing called "self-interest."

[NorthwestCruiser]

5 minutes ago, elliair said:

But no vaccine for SARs.  Corona has now killed more people in 29 days than it did with SARs in several months.  Doesn't matter how "excellent" or "world class" you are, when you sandwich millions of people into a small area, eat exotic animals, do not practice good hygiene, stuff happens.  SARs, MERs, Ebola, Noro, on and on.  Then there's bio-warfare to mix in there.....

The biowarfare stuff is absolute b.s., unless this is a plot by bats to eliminate the human species.    I know, I know, there is lots of twitter stuff "proving" it but that is just to get clicks.   I am certainly no expert in this, but the  "study" that tried to show a communality between AIDS and the virus was remarkably unconvincing; it was like trying to prove that you are Shakespeare because the word "to" also occurs in Hamlet.   You can follow some actual virologists, Ian somebody did a good takedown of the bioweapon theory if you are interested in learning about genetics.

 

It is human psychology to want to believe that unfortunate things happen to other people because of some characteristic that they have which you do not.  It makes us feel safer, but it is still b.s.   Look at the leaked videos of the hospitals, they look as good as anything in Seattle or New York.    If you want to scare the hell out of yourself, look at a chicken farm, cattle feed lot, or pig "farm" in the US sometimes and tell yourself that meat will never be a vector for a novel pathogen in this country.   It is almost enough to make one go veg.

 

We will get through this.   The important thing to do is to prepare for the over reaction and not over react yourself.

[dog]

Not sure if this was mentioned:  David Abel said they were given masks and rubber gloves to wear on deck during their fresh air breaks. Japan gov’t told them not to wear gloves but use hand sanitizer and wash hands with soap/ water as soon as reentering cabin. 

[bluesea321]

2 hours ago, Outerdog said:

Please stop perpetuating this myth and GET EDUCATED on how the ventilation system works on ships.

 

One of the main reason that the guests are quarantined in their cabins most of the day, is that the AC in cabins is not shared or recirculated.  There are two AC systems on the ship.  One takes outside air, cools it, and supplies it to the cabins, in a one way flow.  This fresh air supplied to the cabins is almost balanced by the bathroom exhaust which takes the air to the outside, in a one way flow.  The fresh air supply is slightly greater than the exhaust to keep the cabin at a slight positive pressure relative to the outside, and to the passageway outside the cabin.  The AC controlled by the cabin thermostat is air within the cabin, that is recirculated within the cabin, passing over the individual cabin's cooler.

 

That is not the way Royal Caribbean does it. Their old technology did not recirculate air, their new system indeed recirculates in order to reduce cooling costs:

 

“More energy is more fuel, and more fuel is a higher cost for the company... So we’re trying to minimize energy cost in any way we can without jeopardizing the comfort of our passengers. One way is recirculating the air inside the ship instead of venting it outside, as had been the practice. Now warm air is pulled out of a room and sent to a recovery wheel – also called a rotary heat exchanger – where heat is caught and the now cooler air is returned to the fresh air intake. By doing so we’ve reduced our cooling by a quarter."

https://www.rclcorporate.com/a-chill-in-the-air/

 

I could not find comparable details from CCL but they are likely doing the same as costs are a driving factor across the industry. See this from Princess' Sustainability Report.

 

"Energy Reduction Innovations. Princess Cruises began using its Neptune system to track trends in energy use. This has led to a wealth of information to help us decide the best course to reduce energy use. Our HVAC systems use about 30 percent of our energy in port. Because of this, we are implementing a wide range of HVAC energy efficiency projects." 

https://www.princess.com/downloads/pdf/about_us/sustainability-report.pdf

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by bluesea321

[Outerdog]

4 minutes ago, bluesea321 said:

 

That is not the way Royal Caribbean does it now. Their old technology did not recirculate air, their new system indeed recirculates in order to reduce cooling costs:

 

“More energy is more fuel, and more fuel is a higher cost for the company... So we’re trying to minimize energy cost in any way we can without jeopardizing the comfort of our passengers. One way is recirculating the air inside the ship instead of venting it outside, as had been the practice. Now warm air is pulled out of a room and sent to a recovery wheel – also called a rotary heat exchanger – where heat is caught and the now cooler air is returned to the fresh air intake. By doing so we’ve reduced our cooling by a quarter."

https://www.rclcorporate.com/a-chill-in-the-air/

 

I could not find comparable details from CCL but they are likely doing the same as costs are a driving factor across the industry. See this from Princess' Sustainability Report.

 

"Energy Reduction Innovations. Princess Cruises began using its Neptune system to track trends in energy use. This has led to a wealth of information to help us decide the best course to reduce energy use. Our HVAC systems use about 30 percent of our energy in port. Because of this, we are implementing a wide range of HVAC energy efficiency projects." 

https://www.princess.com/downloads/pdf/about_us/sustainability-report.pdf

 

 

@chengkp75 - can you comment on this?

[expatcruiser88]

48 minutes ago, dog said:

Not sure if this was mentioned:  David Abel said they were given masks and rubber gloves to wear on deck during their fresh air breaks. Japan gov’t told them not to wear gloves but use hand sanitizer and wash hands with soap/ water as soon as reentering cabin. 

 

This makes a lot of sense. Gloves can provide a false sense of security, when in fact placing and removing the gloves leaves opportunity of transferring the virus. Washing hands thoroughly for 20 seconds with soap is the best defense against spread of illness. Not to mention that crew will be spraying the halls, railings and door handles on a regular basis. I worked on board for a noro outbreak once, and was amazed at the extensive measures we took as crew.

[Level six]

I have no idea whether the air is recirculated or not.  BUT, on one cruise we were under the casino and our cabin smelled of smoke for 31 days.  They came to our cabin daily, because of course as a non smoker, I was complaining.  The tech on board said, "well it is the air from the casino getting here by the aircon".  So?  Maybe some do share the same system in close by areas???

Edited February 9, 2020 by Level six

[CH_ca]

I have limited knowledge on how drains work on cruise ships. If anyone knows more please chime in.  Does anyone know if the floor drains in stateroom bathrooms could be a potential danger? I've seen posts complaining about odours in stateroom bathrooms and others suggested pouring a glass of water into the floor drain and the odour stopped. I just found on Wikipedia about how SARS was spread in a Hong Kong housing complex Amoy Gardens. Many people there contracted SARS without having contacts with anyone who was sick. They later found out the culprit to be the bathroom floor drains for spreading the SARS virus.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoy_Gardens

 

My thoughts are with the passengers on Diamond Princess.

[kendon]

Yes, imagine just sitting in your stateroom all day waiting for the next "bomb"

to drop.  

 

[caribill]

2 hours ago, silkismom said:

Looking at the little video of people on deck, I couldn't hear the words but it was very obvious that they are NOT staying 3 ft apart from others OR wearing gloves.

a) People in the same cabin do not have to stay 3 feet from each other

b) They have been told not to wear gloves, but to wash hands thoroughly before going on deck and upon return to cabin.

[YlangYlangF9PB3E]

5 hours ago, fragilek said:

As far as I can find out the additional confirmed cases come from a new round of testing of 57 passengers - no reason give why these new 57 were chosen

https://www.mhlw.go.jp/stf/newpage_09405.html

 

Perhaps from a number of passengers who have had high fever since distribution of thermometers to all onboard a few days ago.