Cancelling your river cruise with Viking

[Coral]

2 minutes ago, kentchris said:

As they're a private company details of things like their financing and debt aren't all that visible, but it seems they didn't use all their own money to pay for at least one of their ocean fleet - it's not a coincidence that Viking Sun was named in Shanghai.

 

 http://staging.seatrade-cruise.com/news/news-headlines/china-merchants-closes-500m-financing-deal-for-two-viking-newbuilds.html

I think that has more to do with being in China. Russia has pretty strict rules on building/ownership - oddly Viking got around that probably because they were early on. I think there are unusual circumstances in the US also with the ships they are building here.

 

For the most part - they own the vast majority of their ships and pay cash for them.

 

Yes - there are exceptions.

[notamermaid]

Viking River cruises started their business with a massive money help/ credit by the German government all those years ago. It was in conjunction with taking over part of the KD fleet. Please do not think there is no bank behind Viking now, either (in German): https://www.seereisenportal.de/news/kreuzfahrt-news-schifffahrtsnachrichten/flusskreuzfahrten-kfw-ipex-bank-finanziert-flusskreuzfahrtschiffe-fuer-viking-cruises/ 

 

notamermaid

 

[Coral]

3 hours ago, notamermaid said:

Viking River cruises started their business with a massive money help/ credit by the German government all those years ago. It was in conjunction with taking over part of the KD fleet. Please do not think there is no bank behind Viking now, either (in German): https://www.seereisenportal.de/news/kreuzfahrt-news-schifffahrtsnachrichten/flusskreuzfahrten-kfw-ipex-bank-finanziert-flusskreuzfahrtschiffe-fuer-viking-cruises/ 

 

notamermaid

 

The odd thing is that they don't market to Germans anymore (correct?). 

 

I finally read the article in English. I still think Viking is in much better shape than other companies. Again, I am not a Viking cheerleader by any means. My guess is they have less debt than the other lines do.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Coral

[notamermaid]

@Coral 

Yes, Viking closed the German office a few years ago and there is no German marketing or website. According to Wikipedia they "wanted to concentrate on the more lucrative English-speaking market". I apologize for shortening the Viking history, the first business was of course Russia, then came the European market.

 

Like you I think Viking has a sound base and many satisfied customers that will help to get the company through the crisis - customers on the North-American market not cancelling and others agreeing with full payment much more in advance than is accepted anywhere in Europe in the industry should ensure cash flow.

 

notamermaid

 

[BruceOhio]

Great post...  our River Cruise (Rhine) is in October and we are weighing all the options.  Our fear is that even if Viking is sailing will our $10,000+ experience be compromised by wearing masks, social distancing, some closed shops and restaurants, etc.  One point I did not see mentioned was Travel Insurance.  This is NOT refundable if you cancel vs reschedule.  For us that was $1000 so that's a lot to give up.  Also, when we first booked there were many promotions and we got $1500 off our cruise for 2.  When I looked at rebooking in 2021 those promotions do not apply so we may more for the same cruise. 

[Coral]

On 4/20/2020 at 3:42 AM, notamermaid said:

@Coral 

Yes, Viking closed the German office a few years ago and there is no German marketing or website. According to Wikipedia they "wanted to concentrate on the more lucrative English-speaking market". I apologize for shortening the Viking history, the first business was of course Russia, then came the European market.

 

Like you I think Viking has a sound base and many satisfied customers that will help to get the company through the crisis - customers on the North-American market not cancelling and others agreeing with full payment much more in advance than is accepted anywhere in Europe in the industry should ensure cash flow.

 

notamermaid

 

A long time ago when I was in Russia, I saw Viking ships that were not marketed to the US Markets. It turned out they were marketed to German passengers. Several years later, I found it odd to cut the German population out. When I was on an European river cruise - we had several who were from Europe on the trip.

 

No need to apologize - your information is invaluable. I appreciate/enjoy reading your posts.

[mh53j_fe]

I just got off a chat with Viking. We cancelled our Grand European Tour on March 31. I was told when I cancelled we would receive a refund by April 22. 

I am including below the response from Viking in my chat window:

"On the 31st of March is you requested for the refund. On April 11th the time line has been updated/modified to 45 days for all refunds/returns on credit cards or echeck payments."

All refunds are now taking 45 days to show up in your bank accounts!

I pressed the person I was talking to to better understand why it is taking 45 days. Viking is blaming the banks which I find really hard to believe. We may never go with Viking ever again.

 

[TikiIslandGirl]

7 hours ago, mh53j_fe said:

I just got off a chat with Viking. We cancelled our Grand European Tour on March 31. I was told when I cancelled we would receive a refund by April 22. 

I am including below the response from Viking in my chat window:

"On the 31st of March is you requested for the refund. On April 11th the time line has been updated/modified to 45 days for all refunds/returns on credit cards or echeck payments."

All refunds are now taking 45 days to show up in your bank accounts!

I pressed the person I was talking to to better understand why it is taking 45 days. Viking is blaming the banks which I find really hard to believe. We may never go with Viking ever again.

 

It's isn't just Viking. I book with Uniworld and am on day 42 waiting on my refund.  I've been told 4 different time frames for my refund (2 wks/3-4 wks/4-6 wks and finally 6-8 wks).  I think all companies are holding on to peoples money, My cruise was supposed to have been on 3/31. I feel like since my cruises was one of the first cruises of the season and the earliest to be impacted I think I should have been refunded sooner.  Apparently Uniworld doesn't feel the same lol  I'll wait the 8 weeks and will call again.  If I get the run-around  I will just dispute it with my credit card.

[clojacks]

17 hours ago, TikiIslandGirl said:

It's isn't just Viking. I book with Uniworld and am on day 42 waiting on my refund.  I've been told 4 different time frames for my refund (2 wks/3-4 wks/4-6 wks and finally 6-8 wks).  I think all companies are holding on to peoples money, My cruise was supposed to have been on 3/31. I feel like since my cruises was one of the first cruises of the season and the earliest to be impacted I think I should have been refunded sooner.  Apparently Uniworld doesn't feel the same lol  I'll wait the 8 weeks and will call again.  If I get the run-around  I will just dispute it with my credit card.

After cancelling an Oct '20 Danube cruise yesterday, I was told expect 45-60 days.

[mh53j_fe]

Received the refund today for the amount we paid via ACH. Waiting now on Viking to credit our credit card for the remainder of the amount.

[Bake apple]

We cancelled our Viking Rhine Getaway and our full refund was applied to our credit card a few days ago, which would have been 26 days after we cancelled.

[hihandycap]

We canceled with Viking the morning of March 30 when all Viking river cruises through June 30 were canceled.  We copied Viking customer service on the e-mail we sent to our TA requesting the refund rather than the FCC.  Our TA said Viking told her the refund would be processed in 21 days.  The reply from Viking customer service to us said it would be processed "the week of April 22."  (a Wednesday).

 

When the refund had not posted by April 24, we called Viking customer service and were told it was "21 BUSINESS days" but they were behind because of the number of refunds requested.  We told the rep, in our opinion, Viking was jeopardizing future business by holding the funds for over three weeks.   A week to complete any transaction may have made sense when most things were done manually, on paper, using mail but NOT now since everything is done electronically, the Virus notwithstanding.

 

The credit appeared on our account today (4/29).  Chase shows the transaction date as April 24 and the posting date as April 28.   (squeaky wheel...?)   We only use the card for international travel because of the insurance benefits and no currency translation fees, so we need to convert the credit balance to cash,  but Chase is not taking calls about routine matters.  Guess we'll try the "feedback" feature on Chase's website or just cancel the card.

 

Here's a link about credit balances on credit cards https://www.forbes.com/sites/advisor/2020/03/21/what-to-do-if-you-have-a-negative-balance-on-your-credit-card/#2f7a21b3b11b

 

 

[Squawkman]

Hihandycap - Like you, I use Chase Sapphire for all travel. In March last year, our cruise was cancelled by Viking as the ship was involved in an engine mishap the week before. We also had to wait longer for the credit card refund than if we paid cash. And once the credit was posted, it was like pulling teeth to get a check issued (took over a week). I initially went to a Chase branch, but they told me I could only request a check by phone. You will get your check - but be prepared to get a negative balance in your rewards (something the Forbes article should have addressed since large negative balances I would think earned rewards when the purchase was made). I really think this was not a case of squeaky wheel but sheer volume, Viking staff working from home, audit verification, etc. This year, I cancelled a cruise in early March and had to wait a few days longer than I was told for a future cruise voucher. If you read the issues river cruisers are having with other lines in this forum, you can see Viking is doing better than most under these circumstances.

[hihandycap]

32 minutes ago, hihandycap said:

 Guess we'll try the "feedback" feature on Chase's website or just cancel the card.

 

Too late to edit prior post.   Just got off the telephone with Chase (after spending some time in Chase's automatic system then just punching zero several times).  Chase said they would mail paper check in "7-10 business days" and to allow several days for USPS.  After she submitted the check request, I learned I could have requested the credit balance be transferred to a credit card we use domestically for every day transactions.

 

Quote

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by hihandycap
To try and eliminate second quote box

[hihandycap]

6 minutes ago, Squawkman said:

Hihandycap - Like you, I use Chase Sapphire for all travel. In March last year, our cruise was cancelled by Viking as the ship was involved in an engine mishap the week before. We also had to wait longer for the credit card refund than if we paid cash. And once the credit was posted, it was like pulling teeth to get a check issued (took over a week). I initially went to a Chase branch, but they told me I could only request a check by phone. You will get your check - but be prepared to get a negative balance in your rewards (something the Forbes article should have addressed since large negative balances I would think earned rewards when the purchase was made). I really think this was not a case of squeaky wheel but sheer volume, Viking staff working from home, audit verification, etc. This year, I cancelled a cruise in early March and had to wait a few days longer than I was told for a future cruise voucher. If you read the issues river cruisers are having with other lines in this forum, you can see Viking is doing better than most under these circumstances.

Actually, it's a United Explorer card (we canceled our Sapphire Reserve after the first free year--I think Chase has reduced the benefits and raised the annual fee on that card.)  We have no problem with Chase also reversing the United miles credited from the initial reservation.  We actually offered Viking a 3% discount on the refund if they would do it by EFT rather than a CC credit--but Viking's policy doesn't allow that flexibility even though it would have been marginally beneficial to Viking.

 

I'm not singling out Viking for its policies of "immediate payment-in-full" or " 21 Business days" to process a straightforward 15 minute electronic transaction.  Unfortunately, all large enterprises these days prefer to exploit their customers rather than respecting the relationship as [potentially] mutually beneficial.  IMO, "customer service" is largely oxymoronic, having replaced Yogi Berra's ironic wisdom {but with far less humor} for the top spot.

[Host Jazzbeau]

I was the CFO of a law school before retirement.  My staff were empowered to accept money from students and deposit it immediately – because if there was a mistake we could refund it later.  But they were not able to do refunds on their own – our auditors would not have allowed such a system because of the danger of fraud and embezzlement.  I had to sign each check personally.  Imagine how having everybody working from home delays such a process.  That is why you will see threads throughout Cruise Critic about delays in refunds.

[Squawkman]

2 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I was the CFO of a law school before retirement.  My staff were empowered to accept money from students and deposit it immediately – because if there was a mistake we could refund it later.  But they were not able to do refunds on their own – our auditors would not have allowed such a system because of the danger of fraud and embezzlement.  I had to sign each check personally.  Imagine how having everybody working from home delays such a process.  That is why you will see threads throughout Cruise Critic about delays in refunds.

Exactly! I was the CFO of a large state agency that had probably more regulations.

[hihandycap]

"I was the CFO of a law school before retirement."

 

  How many years/decades ago was that?    Ya think there could have been any improvements in productivity since then?

 

" Imagine how having everybody working from home delays such a process."

 

 OK.  I'll bite.  How is Chase able to process a paper check refund in one third to one half of the time (7-10 business days) than Viking (or any cruise line) can process an electronic credit (in 21 business days)?

 

I submit timing on such transactions (immediate payments/slow refunds) is largely a corporate policy to play the float for as long as they can before the counter-parties start objecting.  Your mileage may vary.  

[Host Jazzbeau]

32 minutes ago, hihandycap said:

"I was the CFO of a law school before retirement."

 

  How many years/decades ago was that?    Ya think there could have been any improvements in productivity since then?

 

Actually, no.  Auditors have been getting stricter in the 8 years since I retired, not more lenient [has something to do with the Dodd-Frank environment].  It has nothing to do with productivity.

 

When I first started work there I had found some really killer sales that could have saved us a lot of money on purchases, but we were blocked from buying that way.  I asked my mentor why the State didn't want to save taxpayers' money, and he wisely told me "The purchasing rules are not about getting a good deal, they are all about preventing fraud and embezzlement."  Once I understood that, everything made sense.  As you can see from @Squawkman's post above, things in New Jersey are similar to New York.

[hihandycap]

" Auditors have been getting stricter in the 8 years since I retired, not more lenient [has something to do with the Dodd-Frank environment].  It has nothing to do with productivity. "

 

Dodd-Frank regulated the financial markets not the back offices of travel companies.  The digital age has greatly improved productivity in all areas of commerce.  Documentation and records are virtually instantaneously available to multiple parties if modern systems are implemented.   Records are far easier to retrieve and store while being more difficult to falsify than relying on paper, multi-part forms or photo-copying, and file drawers stuffed with folders.  Audit trails have also been enhanced, but separation of functions and oversight remain crucial while de-centralization (aka working from home) of those responsibilities is becoming the new norm. 

 

You can have the last word.

 

 

[Squawkman]

Hihandycap - Can't agree with you. The digital age has made many things easier, but also opened up a Pandora's box of new issues (hacking, spamming, system faults). I am currently doing part-time post-retirement work for a different state agency (manage a large contract). Even depositing receipts today is more complicated. Viking transactions go through a stringent approval process which is not made easier by people working at home (by itself another 2 edged sword). Give them some time.

[hihandycap]

"Can't agree with you"

That's OK, wasn't seeking agreement, just expressing an opinion, but you may remember the old saw about opinions and.....

 

I am currently doing part-time post-retirement work for a different state agency (manage a large contract).

 

My bad, I should have clarified I was talking about private enterprises with a profit motive.  I don't have any inside public sector experience since my final billet as a junior naval officer as an operational auditor at a government-owned shipyard.  My first position after discharge was also as an operational auditor at a large international engineering-construction firm.  Those experiences gave me some insight into the differences in cultures and motivations between the public and private sectors.  My (probably somewhat dated and too jaded) impressions were that public entities were all about spending the full amount of annual budgets and justifying more for the next fiscal period--the more one could justify, the more staff could be added, and the larger any segment became, the easier it was for those managing that segment to earn promotions and raises.

 

In contrast, private enterprises seem to be more dependent on efficiencies and profitability.  Travel companies such as airlines, cruise lines, large tour operators, etc.  finance a considerable part of their working capital needs with un-earned revenue for future trips--when that source of funds contracts, as is currently happening, it often means travel companies need to borrow more from lines of credit or other sources, increasing interest expense.   Hence, playing the float. 

 

I am not discounting " Pandora's box of new issues,"  but as those threats emerge, so do effective counter-measures such as two-step verifications, tokens, and a variety of other security procedures to minimize identity theft and other forms of fraud.

 

Since you are involved as a consultant in contact administration/project management,  I assume you may be quite versed in processes and the appropriate durations to accomplish any given task effectively .  Out of curiosity (and obvious boredom), what is your considered opinion (or anyone else's) of each step and the needed time-frame for such step that a cruise line like Viking needs once a e-mail is received by the company identifying the passengers' name, address, and reservation number to process  an electronic refund in the exact same amount to the exact same credit card that was originally used to pay for that reservation canceled by the cruise-line ?

 

PS  Please don't blame excessive durations on auditors delaying anything.  Any one who as ever worked as an auditor knows they use ex-post facto sampling to conduct examinations.

 

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

44 minutes ago, hihandycap said:

PS  Please don't blame excessive durations on auditors delaying anything.  Any one who as ever worked as an auditor knows they use ex-post facto sampling to conduct examinations.

 

I don't know at what level you worked with auditors.  I know from my personal experience that their final report included a lengthy section on our policies and procedures and 'suggestions' about Best Practices that we should [had darn well better] implement across the board.  That's why Dodd Frank did actually impinge our activities: the law didn't apply to us, but the auditors required us to follow it [and I'm using 'Dodd Frank' as shorthand for all the changes that flowed from that crisis].

 

This shouldn't become smokescreen to cover the main point I raised:  any organization's best practices are going to require a more detailed audit trail for outgoing money than for incoming.  That's the answer to the perennial question "How come they can process my credit card payment in less than a minute but it takes X days to get a refund?"  And the current situation of laid-off staff and staff working from home makes completing those audit trails much more time-consuming.

[Squawkman]

My (probably somewhat dated and too jaded) impressions were that public entities were all about spending the full amount of annual budgets and justifying more for the next fiscal period--the more one could justify, the more staff could be added, and the larger any segment became, the easier it was for those managing that segment to earn promotions and raises.

 

There was some truth in that years ago when NJ would budget federal funds. It still happened despite Pres. Carter’s attempt to use ZBB. Never the case with NJ state government. Our goal was efficiency. Doing more with less was the mantra. In 1981, I was proud to receive a plaque personally presented by the governor for implementing a process to extend services provided by outside grants.

 

I am not discounting " Pandora's box of new issues,"  but as those threats emerge, so do effective counter-measures such as two-step verifications, tokens, and a variety of other security procedures to minimize identity theft and other forms of fraud.

State agencies do not have immediate access to new technologies, and the purchase and security issues are too detailed to get into here. Viking is a multi-national corporation. Moving their functions to work at home staff is not that simple. I know from discussions with my Viking agent that many functions that seem simple require a few layers of approval. Working at home for me took special permission and it works - but I don’t have kids doing distance learning or a dog barking to go out. I also have to use some of my own equipment which is usually not the case in the corporate world.

 

I recognize that Viking requires full payment ahead more than its competitors which is a cheap way to fund expansion. I have no problem with it as the quality and value is worth it to me. 
 

 

Since you are involved as a consultant in contact administration/project management,  I assume you may be quite versed in processes and the appropriate durations to accomplish any given task effectively .  Out of curiosity (and obvious boredom), what is your considered opinion (or anyone else's) of each step and the needed time-frame for such step that a cruise line like Viking needs once a e-mail is received by the company identifying the passengers' name, address, and reservation number to process  an electronic refund in the exact same amount to the exact same credit card that was originally used to pay for that reservation canceled by the cruise-line ?

Can’t answer that as government payment/refund regs are not comparable. But as I said somewhere here previously, in normal times, promised dates are kept.

[tomworldwidewaftage]

On 3/28/2020 at 10:35 AM, tomworldwidewaftage said:

When Viking cancelled our ocean cruise.

We asked for a refund that day.

 

We are still waiting for Viking to "refund" OUR money to our credit card.

Viking has had OUR money for over a year, and still hanging on to it.

Viking finally refunded our money, they way they did it was with no explanation.

All on the same credit card.

1. $500.00 

2. a week later another $4500.00 

3. a week later another $15,000.00