Hospital Ships, Residential Ships, and Quarantine Ships Oh My!

[MoniMommy]

26 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

There was no guarantee before this pandemic nor will their be after, that you are evacuated to a US hospital regardless of your insurance.  You are evacuated to the nearest hospital that Roysl seems acceptable and then it is then up to your  insurance company to get you to a US hospital.

 

If you get sick enough to be evacuated and you are close to Cozumel you are going to a hospital in Cozumel for treatment until your insurance company makes arrangements to move you.  Insert other countries in place of Cozumel as the case may be. 

Yes, makes sense. In many emergencies you need to go to the closest appropriate facility and then once stabilized insurance can help you get a medical evacuation back home. 

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

9 minutes ago, denamo said:

Just a few things that come to mind: Additional time the USCG has to put workers to help, transports to hospitals once the ships port, helping to get US citizens home with flights, perhaps testing, and housing off of the ship if needed for some.  These are just the obvious that I can think of. Any time moving people around arises, there are always unforeseen expenses.

 

Obviously, I'm not privy to all that is financial required. In the order posted, it is a concern. The CDC wants the cruise line to have a plan and the US not have to support monetarily. They do allude to it in the posted order.

 

Thanks for your question. 

 

 

 

Exactly. During a global pandemic - the only one of my lifetime, and I'm old - the cruise industry forced port authorities, health agencies, marine police units and others to deal with one self-created crisis after another: after Diamond came Golden, Coral, the Zaandam, Ruby. 

Cruise lines burned bridges in numerous countries by their short-sighted stupidity and greed in letting too many sailings go forward. Now they'll pay the price.

 

Governments are not the emergency cavalry for lousy planning by corporations. 

[LMaxwell]

3 hours ago, denamo said:

Oh, to be a fly on the wall in the various cruise lines' board rooms!  Overall, I think the cruise lines desire is to keep cruisers safe in all ways. Best business practice is keeping passengers safe.   At the top of it all, they are businesses providing customers with an enjoyable vacation experience while making money. Not pessimism, just a simple fact.

 

As I always say to my husband....follow the money!  What the CDC has put into place with this order does appear to have a monetary concern. The cruise lines for many years have chosen to circumvent paying US taxes and abiding with US labor laws. Not bashing, just stating a fact. Obviously, haven't not cruised due to these practices.  Cruise lines are not the only corporations choosing these types business practices. 

 

Every cruise line at this point is juggling various types of concerns: safety, customer satisfaction, and keeping their companies in good financial standing.  As this thread has unfolded as an exercise in speculation and debate, which is not an issue, in the back of my mind is the lingering thought....follow the money! I believe the CDC is.  🙂

 

 

I don't think it is the money so much as the resources.  All the money in the world won't help if you show up with a ship full of 5000 sick people at Port Miami

[LMaxwell]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Since the ships now have at most 1/3 of the normal number of people onboard, the food and supplies onboard will last that much longer (and even longer since the crew does not waste as much food as the pax).  And, again, they don't have to comply with the following unless they want to conduct "operations".  How about an offshore work boat (rig tenders) from the Bahamas coming out to deliver supplies while at anchor?  Since cargo ships are working, the cruise lines can deliver food and supply containers to the ports in Florida, have a small container ship carry them to the Bahamas (as part of routine service), and then load the supplies on the work boat for delivery back to the cruise ship.  The cruise ship is not making "operations", just the cargo vessels.  Bunkering fuel can be done at anchorage, but again, fuel will go a lot further.

Is anchored up on the reef off Miami considered operations or not operations? 

[gatour]

1 hour ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

 

Exactly. During a global pandemic - the only one of my lifetime, and I'm old - the cruise industry forced port authorities, health agencies, marine police units and others to deal with one self-created crisis after another: after Diamond came Golden, Coral, the Zaandam, Ruby. 

Cruise lines burned bridges in numerous countries by their short-sighted stupidity and greed in letting too many sailings go forward. Now they'll pay the price.

 

Governments are not the emergency cavalry for lousy planning by corporations. 

Disney World has guests from all over the country and the world.  Using this logic why should Florida tax payers take care of people getting sick at Disney World due lack of planning my Disney corporation.

[Germancruiser]

On 4/14/2020 at 11:53 PM, livingonthebeach said:

 

Yes, I live on the beach and I see them from my terrace -- a large number of "ghost ships".  I'm amazed at the number of people who think cruises are going to resume this Summer or Fall.  The magnitude of the health requirements alone imposed by the CDC are going to be one monumental hurdle to overcome.  Cruising as we knew it will cease to exist and will never go back to the way it was.  Some form of it will likely evolve but this year doesn't look very promising. 

Oh my just reading where you live livinonthebeach, made me kind of homesick to my favorite part of Miami Beach- Sunny Isle- went there with my parents in 1987- and still going there every other year- if can. First in the Pan American Ocean- then in the Aqualina- what an evolution Sunny Isles went through.

Alone the view of all those idle ships - ghost ships- out there must be amazing- if somewhat sad! Slightly off Topic- but I could not resist. Greetings to Sunny Isle from - also strugling Germany!

[Sunshine3601]

1 hour ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

 

Exactly. During a global pandemic - the only one of my lifetime, and I'm old - the cruise industry forced port authorities, health agencies, marine police units and others to deal with one self-created crisis after another: after Diamond came Golden, Coral, the Zaandam, Ruby. 

Cruise lines burned bridges in numerous countries by their short-sighted stupidity and greed in letting too many sailings go forward. Now they'll pay the price.

 

Governments are not the emergency cavalry for lousy planning by corporations. 

Very well said.  Thank you! 

 

I could not understand why people were still boarding ships in March.   Far too many of those ships had problems and some with deaths.    Not looking to argue just blew my mind is all I am saying.

[suzyluvs2cruise]

11 minutes ago, gatour said:

Disney World has guests from all over the country and the world.  Using this logic why should Florida tax payers take care of people getting sick at Disney World due lack of planning my Disney corporation.

 

You can't compare a land based resort to a floating cruise ship. Guests at Disneyland who may become ill are treated in local hospitals and are responsible for payment via insurance or personal funds. 

[chengkp75]

23 minutes ago, LMaxwell said:

Is anchored up on the reef off Miami considered operations or not operations? 

Per the definition of operations listed in the CDC order, no, it is not operations.

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, suzyluvs2cruise said:

 

You can't compare a land based resort to a floating cruise ship. Guests at Disneyland who may become ill are treated in local hospitals and are responsible for payment via insurance or personal funds. 

How are they different?  Guests at Disney who become ill are treated in local hospitals regardless of nationality.  Passengers on a cruise ship that become ill are treated in local hospitals regardless of nationality, and some of those local hospitals may not be in the US.  Guests at Disney who become ill are responsible for payment for hospital treatment.  Guests who become ill on a cruise ship are responsible for payment for hospital treatment.  Did I miss something where hospitals treat cruise ship patients for free?  The only hospitals that I'm aware of that routinely treat patients for free are St. Jude's and Shriners.

[suzyluvs2cruise]

19 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

How are they different?  Guests at Disney who become ill are treated in local hospitals regardless of nationality.  Passengers on a cruise ship that become ill are treated in local hospitals regardless of nationality, and some of those local hospitals may not be in the US.  Guests at Disney who become ill are responsible for payment for hospital treatment.  Guests who become ill on a cruise ship are responsible for payment for hospital treatment.  Did I miss something where hospitals treat cruise ship patients for free?  The only hospitals that I'm aware of that routinely treat patients for free are St. Jude's and Shriners.

Sorry that I didn't post all my thoughts. I should have added guests at a resort can be transported easily from the resort to the hospital while guests on a cruise ship need to be evacuated from the ship and then transported to a hospital. 

[bluesea321]

1 hour ago, LMaxwell said:

Is anchored up on the reef off Miami considered operations or not operations? 

 

Below is the definition of Operations per the CDC Order:

 

“Operations" for purposes of this Order means any action by a cruise ship operator to bring or cause a cruise ship to be brought into or transit in or between any international, interstate, or intrastate waterways (e.g., shifting berths, moving to anchor, discharging waste, making port, or embarking or disembarking passengers or crew) subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

 

Recall that there are still a few passengers on some of the ships and of course crew so something has to give in this scenario.

[livingonthebeach]

9 hours ago, Germancruiser said:

Oh my just reading where you live livinonthebeach, made me kind of homesick to my favorite part of Miami Beach- Sunny Isle- went there with my parents in 1987- and still going there every other year- if can. First in the Pan American Ocean- then in the Aqualina- what an evolution Sunny Isles went through.

Alone the view of all those idle ships - ghost ships- out there must be amazing- if somewhat sad! Slightly off Topic- but I could not resist. Greetings to Sunny Isle from - also strugling Germany!

 

Thanks Germancruiser for your kind thoughts!  Yes, Sunny Isles Beach has gone through a tremendous transformation.  I'm pleased you like my area.  Let me know when you're back in this area again, so we can "Prost" to the good ole days and to good times ahead!!

[gatour]

12 hours ago, suzyluvs2cruise said:

Sorry that I didn't post all my thoughts. I should have added guests at a resort can be transported easily from the resort to the hospital while guests on a cruise ship need to be evacuated from the ship and then transported to a hospital. 

Cruise ship can dock.  Patient can then be transported to hospital.  I have been on one ship that had left St Thomas about an hour ago, when the Captain came on the speaker and said we were returning to St Thomas to offload an unhealthy passenger.  We docked the passenger was placed in a waiting ambulance and taken to the hospital. I have been on other cruises where when docked as scheduled and there were waiting ambulance(s)

[Jobeth66]

Land-based resorts pay taxes to support the local infrastructure, as do land-based guests.  A ship sailing from Baltimore to St. Martin has a passenger that gets sick off the coast of Florida, and the passenger is evacuated to Florida.  Florida has gotten no taxes or other benefit either from the cruise line or the passenger.  There is no support going into the infrastructure, only money flowing out.

[MoniMommy]

17 minutes ago, Jobeth66 said:

Land-based resorts pay taxes to support the local infrastructure, as do land-based guests.  A ship sailing from Baltimore to St. Martin has a passenger that gets sick off the coast of Florida, and the passenger is evacuated to Florida.  Florida has gotten no taxes or other benefit either from the cruise line or the passenger.  There is no support going into the infrastructure, only money flowing out.

That's true. I know cruise passengers pay tax but I think that's for port fees. At hotels there is often both a state tax and a city/county tax. 

[npcl]

15 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

How are they different?  Guests at Disney who become ill are treated in local hospitals regardless of nationality.  Passengers on a cruise ship that become ill are treated in local hospitals regardless of nationality, and some of those local hospitals may not be in the US.  Guests at Disney who become ill are responsible for payment for hospital treatment.  Guests who become ill on a cruise ship are responsible for payment for hospital treatment.  Did I miss something where hospitals treat cruise ship patients for free?  The only hospitals that I'm aware of that routinely treat patients for free are St. Jude's and Shriners.

Here are a few differences:

 

1. Decision making - If I go to Disney, I can leave at any time I feel like it.  If I am sick, if I see other people sick. The decision is totally mine.  When I board a ship I surrender the decision making power to the cruiseline and Captain of the ship.  At that time he makes all of the decisions concerning the health and safety of the passengers.  With that authority also comes the responsibility.

 

2. Disney is inside the US.  Cruise ships by their very nature are outside.  A better comparison than to Disney would be if an all inclusive resort located on a Caribbean island had an outbreak and wanted to evacuate their guests to the US for treatment.  I suspect they would be declined just as the cruise ships.

 

3. Last time I stopped by Disney I noticed a number of different taxes that funded local/state governments, such a hotel occupancy taxes, sales taxes, as well as the ones we don't see, property taxes.  A lot of dollars directly flow from a resort like Disney to support the services funded by local government, including but not limited to emergency services, public health departments, etc.  Cruise ships not so much.

Edited April 16, 2020 by npcl

[npcl]

14 hours ago, bluesea321 said:

 

Below is the definition of Operations per the CDC Order:

 

“Operations" for purposes of this Order means any action by a cruise ship operator to bring or cause a cruise ship to be brought into or transit in or between any international, interstate, or intrastate waterways (e.g., shifting berths, moving to anchor, discharging waste, making port, or embarking or disembarking passengers or crew) subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

 

Recall that there are still a few passengers on some of the ships and of course crew so something has to give in this scenario.

However, they can do those functions with the approval of the USCG in consultation with HHS CDC personnel. So some approved actions will be taking place.

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, npcl said:

However, they can do those functions with the approval of the USCG in consultation with HHS CDC personnel. So some approved actions will be taking place.

I'm also seeing offshore supply vessels working the Grand Bahamas Bank area where some of the cruise ships are anchored, so this is likely a start up of supply, water, fuel runs to keep the ships supplied from Freeport, at least for now.  Expect to see more of this, in US anchorages as time goes on.

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

On 4/16/2020 at 12:52 PM, npcl said:

Here are a few differences:

 

1. Decision making - If I go to Disney, I can leave at any time I feel like it.  If I am sick, if I see other people sick. The decision is totally mine.  When I board a ship I surrender the decision making power to the cruiseline and Captain of the ship.  At that time he makes all of the decisions concerning the health and safety of the passengers.  With that authority also comes the responsibility.

 

2. Disney is inside the US.  Cruise ships by their very nature are outside.  A better comparison than to Disney would be if an all inclusive resort located on a Caribbean island had an outbreak and wanted to evacuate their guests to the US for treatment.  I suspect they would be declined just as the cruise ships.

 

3. Last time I stopped by Disney I noticed a number of different taxes that funded local/state governments, such a hotel occupancy taxes, sales taxes, as well as the ones we don't see, property taxes.  A lot of dollars directly flow from a resort like Disney to support the services funded by local government, including but not limited to emergency services, public health departments, etc.  Cruise ships not so much.

 

And I can't recall the USCG being called out again and again and again - during a global pandemic - to bail out mass-scale emergencies at Disney. 

If such a thing did happen, you can bet the government would intervene against Disney very quickly.

 

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

 

And I can't recall the USCG being called out again and again and again - during a global pandemic - to bail out mass-scale emergencies at Disney. 

If such a thing did happen, you can bet the government would intervene against Disney very quickly.

 

And how many times is "again and again"?  By my count, the USCG flew supplies to the Grand Princess, and evacuated one passenger.  They evacuated 7 crew from the Costa Faviosa.  Mass scale emergencies?

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And how many times is "again and again"?  By my count, the USCG flew supplies to the Grand Princess, and evacuated one passenger.  They evacuated 7 crew from the Costa Faviosa.  Mass scale emergencies?

The Coast Guard's emergency order, issued at the height of the chaos caused by the cruise lines:

https://homeport.uscg.mil/Lists/Content/Attachments/62863/MSIB 20-001 COVID-19 Cruiseship Medical Capabilities_Signed.29Mar20.pdf
 

 

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

The Coast Guard's emergency order, issued at the height of the chaos caused by the cruise lines:

https://homeport.uscg.mil/Lists/Content/Attachments/62863/MSIB 20-001 COVID-19 Cruiseship Medical Capabilities_Signed.29Mar20.pdf
 

 

And, that says how many missions the USCG was called out on, where?  When you link to something, it should have facts that support your statement.

[adidas5676]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, that says how many missions the USCG was called out on, where?  When you link to something, it should have facts that support your statement.

There doesn't need to be an exact number for it to prove that these evacuations caused strains on U.S. healthcare locations.  That doesn't happen at Disney.  I think that was his point.

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, adidas5676 said:

There doesn't need to be an exact number for it to prove that these evacuations caused strains on U.S. healthcare locations.  That doesn't happen at Disney.  I think that was his point.

But, again, please advise, even if from news sources, when and what ships had medical evacuations, other than at the dock.  The USCG was mainly referencing that they get a lot more medical consultations, and if these are approved for medical evacuation, then the local hospital system has to receive them, and these hospitals, the end of the medivac chain, are being stressed, so the front of the chain, the USCG SAR helicopters cannot fly the requested missions.  There is no doubt that the health care system was strained due to the evacuations from the cruise ships, I am objecting to the PP's statement:

 

2 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

USCG being called out again and again and again

The USCG was not called out again and again.