Selling the whole ship

[greykitty]

I would hope any vaccines, once shown to be safe and not apt to actually make the disease worse or have any really awful side effects, would be targeted to health care workers, first responders in all their forms, very possibly all those workers who really need to be on the front lines (food-related industries, etc.), then seniors and others.  Assuming we haven't found any other weird correlations by then of course, that would drive another demographic up the waitlist to a more appropriate spot.

 

And I would hope whichever consortium finds an appropriate vaccine or other treatment, that production and distribution be worked out to be globally equitable.  

 

I'm a senior with risk factors and am more than fine to bide my time til I hit my appropriate turn in my own country. I have to admit I'd be worried about karma if I 'jumped the line' to use resources, no matter how much money I had.  That's just me though.  

 

Medical tourism, I think, has some questionable ethics.  I do feel a lot of empathy for those in search of fertility help, let's say, seeking everywhere for aid. I think people like that are often preyed upon as well, but that's a separate discussion.

 

That said, I do think that medical tourists who have resources at home should pay, what, a very substantial surcharge to materially aid whatever other medical system they're utilizing not out of acute need, but out of want.

 

 

[Travelcat2]

It is easy to judge others when you know nothing about them.  In my opinion, no one should pass judgement on anyone but that is not the subject here.  Let me provide some clarification:

 

1.  My husband is very elderly (but thankfully very healthy) and so our time together may be more limited than most.  Spending a year without going on vacation is wasting the time that he has left (our March cruise was cancelled).  

 

2.   My DH is from England ...... he holds two passports - one of which is from the U.K so this is not like going to some strange country for treatment (but I would also consider going elsewhere if it were available).  

 

3.  This is an amazing man who has done much for others and even this country (through his 35 years of work in the space industry).  He went through WWII and was evacuated from his parents for 4+ years - seeing them only once a year.  Finally, in 2002, he was able to retire and together we found our passion in cruising.  We forego other things in order to afford to cruise.

 

The bottom line is that I would do anything on earth to make this man's last few years the best that they can be.  I want him safe - I want him to be able spend time cruising (in between being with our beloved kitties).  Would it be a risk taking a new vaccine (which, buy the way could be globally available by May 2021)?  Absolutely, but this is. a risk that he is willing to take (and I support him so I'd be right by his side as I have been for over 40 years).

 

I truly hope that all of you stay safe and healthy during this crisis.  I also hope that we an all return to cruising safely as soon as possible.  Maybe we can be more tolerant and less judgmental of each other going forward.  We are all in this together and each of us does the best that they can under whatever circumstances we live in.   

Edited April 23, 2020 by Travelcat2

[bissel]

That’s all fine, well, and good. No one is personally attacking you for wanting any of that. I don’t understand your defensiveness. Remember you are absolutely unique. Just like everybody else.

[Travelcat2]

25 minutes ago, bissel said:

That’s all fine, well, and good. No one is personally attacking you for wanting any of that. I don’t understand your defensiveness. Remember you are absolutely unique. Just like everybody else.

 

Yes we are all unique.  The reason that I feel attacked is that I am the only one stating that we would go to England (or other countries) for a vaccine if/when a safe vaccine is available.  I am also going against what many people in the U.S. believe in terms of our country being the best or only country that can produce a safe vaccine.  I love our country but do understand that there are other countries (certainly not all) that can develop a vaccine that is as safe as in the U.S. but in a shorter length of time.  

 

I am not only defending myself but others that are in similar situations (and many times in worse situations than we are).  IMHO, one reason quite a few people pass away on ships is because they know they have little time left and just want to take their last cruise that could bring them some happiness.  I personally knew a man (a CC member) that sailed on Oceania (and Regent once or twice).  He wanted to do a world cruise very badly.  Shortly before the cruise was to depart, the ship caught on fire and killed at least one crew member.  Oceania decided not to do the cruise that year.  So, he booked for the following year.  One month into the cruise, he passed away.  Although I still miss him on the boards (and we did not always agree), I feel better knowing that he died doing what he wanted to do.  I suspect that some people reading this know who I am referring to.

 

So, for many of us, threatening "karma" is a very bad thing and is worth defending.

 

P.S.  bissel - I don't mind you questioning me at all.  It gives me the opportunity to further explain why we do what we do in terms of cruising.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Travelcat2

[bissel]

Yes, you explained yourself very well. I think I and others were pointing out why travelling to England, say, is possibly not particularly a good idea. That is not at all a personal attack.

[fizzy]

My very dear, elderly friend came to this country from Greece... became a citizen, joined the army and was with the group that landed at Omaha beach in ww2. My father, also a citizen, designed fighter planes for Grumman and was totally involved in the LEM lunar landing program. They are both very great men to me.  What should the age be for especially deserving elderly men? I must have missed the perceived karma threat.

[cerise638]

3 minutes ago, fizzy said:

My very dear, elderly friend came to this country from Greece... became a citizen, joined the army and was with the group that landed at Omaha beach in ww2. My father, also a citizen, designed fighter planes for Grumman and was totally involved in the LEM lunar landing program. They are both very great men to me.  What should the age be for especially deserving elderly men? I must have missed the perceived karma threat.

I am not sure of the relevance of your post.  I think T C 2 was simply articulating why her husband was so important to her. I don't think  that warrants unnecessary comparisons of importance compared to others.  We all have people who are important and special to us and different things we would do to make them happy.

 

Keep safe and well 

 

[greykitty]

I said I'd be worried about my own karma if I 'jumped the line' to utilize resources ahead of my turn, no matter how much money I had.  And I would be. And I said that's me though.  Guess I'm attacking myself.

 

Also, I'm sure I'd never hear the end of it from Sister Mary Catherine if we bump into each other in the afterlife.  Even if I made a $10 million cash donation to the NHS, let's say.

 

But I'll be comfy standing in line at Walgreens to get my shot when licensed, approved, and distributed, whenever that happens.  Just like I was for Shingrex - which did take a while to get in my area.  That first year was a doozy with distribution - I certainly hope a COVID vaccination will be a lot more readily and widely available - and less expensive too!  Again, that's me.  

 

I do think  another poster, who lives in the US I believe,   mentioned going to Israel to get a vaccination.  She was the second one that I recall bringing up medical tourism.

[1982CruzStart]

3 minutes ago, greykitty said:

I do think  another poster, who lives in the US I believe,   mentioned going to Israel to get a vaccination.  She was the second one that I recall bringing up medical tourism.

It was the same person. She said she would go to both places. 

No judgement on my part. Just passing on the info. 

[Travelcat2]

bissel, cerise638 and greykitty - thank you for your posts!

 

greykitty - your comment made me laugh (about attacking yourself).  The word "karma" means a lot to me - it is something that I believe in so just seeing the word was upsetting..  Sorry that I misunderstood.

 

Getting back to what I initially responded to, I would love to see the U.S. fast-track a vaccine.  I would be happy for us to get the vaccine in the U.S.  We would be amongst the fairly early people to get the vaccination due to age and health factors.  It is so important for our health care workers to get the vaccine ASAP (as well as those working in grocery stores and in other areas that are helping the public while putting themselves at risk).  These folks are high on the karma scale!

[greykitty]

4 minutes ago, 1982CruzStart said:

It was the same person. She said she would go to both places. 

No judgement on my part. Just passing on the info. 

Oh, I thought Ladys Mom in post #37 or 38 who brought up Israel and taking a "jaunt" over there as well.  Sorry if I misread.

[Travelcat2]

5 minutes ago, greykitty said:

Oh, I thought Ladys Mom in post #37 or 38 who brought up Israel and taking a "jaunt" over there as well.  Sorry if I misread.

 

You are correct - Ladys Mom did post about going to Israel on post #38.

[cerise638]

11 minutes ago, Travelcat2 said:

bissel, cerise638 and greykitty - thank you for your posts!

 

greykitty - your comment made me laugh (about attacking yourself).  The word "karma" means a lot to me - it is something that I believe in so just seeing the word was upsetting..  Sorry that I misunderstood.

 

Getting back to what I initially responded to, I would love to see the U.S. fast-track a vaccine.  I would be happy for us to get the vaccine in the U.S.  We would be amongst the fairly early people to get the vaccination due to age and health factors.  It is so important for our health care workers to get the vaccine ASAP (as well as those working in grocery stores and in other areas that are helping the public while putting themselves at risk).  These folks are high on the karma scale!

I am hoping that whichever country develops the approved vaccine first shares this so it can be manufactured globally and distributed to all countries.  It is important that this virus is controlled globally and that key workers and vulnerable people are vaccine asap

 

None of us are going to cruise until the risks in all countries are controlled. Where would  you get the wonderful crews from.  

Edited April 23, 2020 by cerise638
Missing word

[1982CruzStart]

20 minutes ago, greykitty said:

Oh, I thought Ladys Mom in post #37 or 38 who brought up Israel and taking a "jaunt" over there as well.  Sorry if I misread.

As TC said you are correct, i forgot there were 2 people who mentioned it. My apologies. 

[Travelcat2]

5 minutes ago, 1982CruzStart said:

As TC said you are correct, i forgot there were 2 people who mentioned it. My apologies. 

 

No need to apologize.  There are so many threads and posts on the same subject that it can easily get confusing.

 

Stay safe!

[greykitty]

8 minutes ago, 1982CruzStart said:

As TC said you are correct, i forgot there were 2 people who mentioned it. My apologies. 

Oh, not to worry - some of these threads are fast moving and in this time of so much news every minute, even posters may forget exactly what they said a few days ago.  I recently was at a seminar about the appeal and ethics medical tourism so it really stuck in my mind.  At that time, I had to think about what would work for me, if/when the opportunity presented itself.

Edited April 23, 2020 by greykitty

[mrlevin]

If Israeli vaccine works, I am just going to take it in the comfort of my home; they are actually working on a pill based vaccine.  It was under development a number of years ago and they just dusted off that development.

 

One thing about a fast tracked vaccine; it won't be given to pregnant women; there will not have been enough testing to verify the safety for unborn children.

[RachelG]

While I am totally against medical tourism for a multitude of reasons, I don't think going to the UK or Israel is really medical tourism.  If one has the means to make the trip and is aware of the risks, as long as the vaccine is plentiful enough to treat those in the country where it is available and you going to get it wouldn't deprive someone else maybe ahead in the line in that country, I have no problem with that. The FDA does move incredibly slowly on some things, but there have just been too many instances of drugs being brought to market too soon and then have very serious or lethal side effects.

[Travelcat2]

11 minutes ago, RachelG said:

While I am totally against medical tourism for a multitude of reasons, I don't think going to the UK or Israel is really medical tourism.  If one has the means to make the trip and is aware of the risks, as long as the vaccine is plentiful enough to treat those in the country where it is available and you going to get it wouldn't deprive someone else maybe ahead in the line in that country, I have no problem with that. The FDA does move incredibly slowly on some things, but there have just been too many instances of drugs being brought to market too soon and then have very serious or lethal side effects.

 

Rachel - if the U.K. developed a vaccine first, we would definitely be in contact with the appropriate people there and would get pre-approved to have the vaccine.  While we would do the same thing in Israel, it would be easier to arrange in the U.K, due to Dennis having citizenship there. We would never want to deprive someone else of the valuable vaccine.

[RachelG]

2 minutes ago, Travelcat2 said:

 

Rachel - if the U.K. developed a vaccine first, we would definitely be in contact with the appropriate people there and would get pre-approved to have the vaccine.  While we would do the same thing in Israel, it would be easier to arrange in the U.K, due to Dennis having citizenship there. We would never want to deprive someone else of the valuable vaccine.

I would think Dennis would be pretty high up on the list as he is a citizen and due to his age.

[Guerncruising]

OK. So off target here. Apparently several cruise lines based/starting from the UK will not be doing so until after July 31st. This includes Cunard, P & O and Fred Olsen. Queen Elizabeth will not be sailing Alaska until September at the earliest. 

 

I find, or should I say, we find it difficult to cruise until a successful vaccine is available. 

 

Living in Guernsey with no passenger ferries until mid May and only repatriation flights from Southampton, with the airport closed at weekends makes me think that this is not going to be over and done with sometime soon. 

 

Keep safe. 

[SusieQft]

54 minutes ago, RachelG said:

The FDA does move incredibly slowly on some things, but there have just been too many instances of drugs being brought to market too soon and then have very serious or lethal side effects.

Just look at all the advertisements, "If you or your loved one took this drug and had that complication, call our law firm and we will get you a big payoff."   No doubt this contributes to the delays in introducing new drugs, and even then sometimes they don't figure out all the problems with it until after it is released.

[flossie009]

8 hours ago, Guerncruising said:

Now, as regards a vaccine, if/should a vaccine be developed quickly do we say Britain first? Obviously I sincerely hope that any vaccine developed be available to everywhere and as soon as possible.

 

2 hours ago, cerise638 said:

I am hoping that whichever country develops the approved vaccine first shares this so it can be manufactured globally and distributed to all countries.  It is important that this virus is controlled globally and that key workers and vulnerable people are vaccine asap

 

The Oxford research group in the UK have made it clear that if their trials are successful they will licence the vaccine worldwide without profit.

They are starting trials today and hope to have proven results by September.

However, even if everything goes according to plan they only predict the manufacture of one million doses by this Autumn.

Initial supplies would be reserved for healthcare workers (over 1.5 million in the UK NHS)  and other key workers.

The consensus is that widespread availability of a vaccine in sufficient quantities for a public vaccination programme is still between 12-18 months away at best.

[Guerncruising]

Yes, I appreciate that vaccination will be provided to key workers first, I have a daughter who works for the NHS. 

I do agree that any mass vaccine is some way away yet. 

We do not come under the NHS and pay for Primary Care so heyho, let’s hope for the best for everyone. 

Take care. 

[Travelcat2]

1 hour ago, flossie009 said:

 

 

The Oxford research group in the UK have made it clear that if their trials are successful they will licence the vaccine worldwide without profit.

They are starting trials today and hope to have proven results by September.

However, even if everything goes according to plan they only predict the manufacture of one million doses by this Autumn.

Initial supplies would be reserved for healthcare workers (over 1.5 million in the UK NHS)  and other key workers.

The consensus is that widespread availability of a vaccine in sufficient quantities for a public vaccination programme is still between 12-18 months away at best.

 

Unfortunately, as was said on U.S television last night, one an find an article supporting whatever position they have.  In this case, Belfast Taxman referred to an article (post #29 on this thread)  that states that Oxford could have the vaccine available by September and would have enough to go globally by the end of the year.  I posted the article but here it is again:  https://www.marketwatch.com/story/oxford-university-coronavirus-vaccine-to-begin-human-trials-on-thursday-as-uk-throws-everything-at-vital-breakthrough-2020-04-21. I'm not sure if this is the article Belfast Taxman was referring to because I did not find where it said that it will be available globally by the end of the year.

 

There are other articles that have other dates.  So, all of us need to remember that not everything we read is accurate.  I understand that the article that I found could be overly optimistic and the article stating that it would take between 12-18 months could be overly pessimistic.

 

BTW, here is a promising article from Israel https://www.sfgate.com/science/article/COVID-19-coronavirus-vaccine-Israel-15093659.php. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Travelcat2