July cruises cancelled?

[seaman11]

3 hours ago, pcakes122 said:

I truly wish you would stop saying this Seaman. The cruise industry is not being vilified. What is being vilified (maybe not the correct word but surely the enemy here) is LARGE GATHERINGS in confined spaces. The ships could be literally antiseptic and every surface sanitized round-the-clock, but that's not the real issue. While Covid-19 can be transmitted on surfaces, the primary way that people are infected is through droplets in the air that have come from the nose or mouth of someone with an active virus.  It's not the elevator button that's going to kill you, it's the person standing next to you in the elevator breathing with their mouth open LOL

 

It's just impossible to figure out a way to keep people safely distant from each other on a cruise ship. That's it in a nutshell. Nobody is vilifying cruising. We all love cruising!  It's just the nature of the beast - cruise ships are big packed sardine cans floating in the ocean and the perfect breeding ground for a highly contagious virus.  And they have bare minimum medical facilities should you actually get seriously sick.

 

I love NCL. I don't want to see their business hurt. And I can't wait to cruise again as soon as it's safe! (and I had Covid-19 AND caught it on an NCL ship so that says a lot!)  But I just don't think it's safe right now and it won't be for a while.  This has been discussed on many threads, but if we have to cruise with masks and social distancing measures then that is proof positive that it isn't really safe.  

How  can so called Cruisers , not realize big ships are not a confined space?  I get it muster drills and shows . i know sometimes it is . I trust they will make changes. cruise lines are well aware of whats going on  they will be spreading ppl out .limiting pax onboard  chairs laid out further apart and casinos 4 to a table and so on.  ncl had only 3 cases total on board ships before the shut down , lets not forget that. so yes imo vilified .  you think walmart is 100 percent safe? or a casino ?  but they are open .  

[pcakes122]

5 minutes ago, seaman11 said:

How  can so called Cruisers , not realize big ships are not a confined space?  I get it muster drills and shows . i know sometimes it is . I trust they will make changes. cruise lines are well aware of whats going on  they will be spreading ppl out .limiting pax onboard  chairs laid out further apart and casinos 4 to a table and so on.  ncl had only 3 cases total on board ships before the shut down , lets not forget that. so yes imo vilified .  you think walmart is 100 percent safe? or a casino ?  but they are open .  

NCL had more than that and you know it because I have posted my experience many, many times. I contracted Covid-19 on the Bliss in March and NCL is NOT counting me. The numbers they have reported to the CDC are only those confirmed cases that they KNOW about. I can guarantee you that when I was on the Bliss with Covid other people got it too.  I was not wearing a mask so I'm sure I passed it on to other folks that I interacted with. I did not get tested until I got home and NCL sent the email advising that the CDC required them to tell us that there had been confirmed Covid-19 on the ship. They did not tell me to get tested and report back to them (which would have increased the numbers they would have had to report to the CDC.)

 

I'm weary of having the same argument over and over so just believe what you want to believe.  While it's nice to prevail in a debate, this is one situation where it won't make me feel better to one day have to tell anyone here that "I told you so."

[hftmrock]

12 minutes ago, seaman11 said:

How  can so called Cruisers , not realize big ships are not a confined space?  I get it muster drills and shows . i know sometimes it is . I trust they will make changes. cruise lines are well aware of whats going on  they will be spreading ppl out .limiting pax onboard  chairs laid out further apart and casinos 4 to a table and so on.  ncl had only 3 cases total on board ships before the shut down , lets not forget that. so yes imo vilified .  you think walmart is 100 percent safe? or a casino ?  but they are open .  

Here is the challenge...

you have all the same challenges as casinos, in restaurant dining, malls, elevators, shows, pools, and stores on land

 

PLUS

 

There is a limited way to assist if one person is infected. they dont have ventilators and they cant get people off the ship fast enough. If one person gets it, and he was at the casino, the shows, the MDR , the Pool.... then EVERYONE will need to quarantine

 

The problem is that a ship has EVERY SINGLE issue that can be had PLUS no way to really treat them and no way to isolate everyone that was around them

 

its complicated and it wont be resolved easily and it will ONLY be resolved when the CDC and the ships owners agree. Not 1 second before and so far that is September at the earliest

 

They are not vilifying them, they realize that cruise ships are the perfect storm

[mugtech]

36 minutes ago, seaman11 said:

How  can so called Cruisers , not realize big ships are not a confined space?  I get it muster drills and shows . i know sometimes it is .   

Only need one incident to transfer the infection.

[seaman11]

19 minutes ago, hftmrock said:

Here is the challenge...

you have all the same challenges as casinos, in restaurant dining, malls, elevators, shows, pools, and stores on land

 

PLUS

 

There is a limited way to assist if one person is infected. they dont have ventilators and they cant get people off the ship fast enough. If one person gets it, and he was at the casino, the shows, the MDR , the Pool.... then EVERYONE will need to quarantine

 

The problem is that a ship has EVERY SINGLE issue that can be had PLUS no way to really treat them and no way to isolate everyone that was around them

 

its complicated and it wont be resolved easily and it will ONLY be resolved when the CDC and the ships owners agree. Not 1 second before and so far that is September at the earliest

 

They are not vilifying them, they realize that cruise ships are the perfect storm

this is a good post.  I do think though they have a good plan, they also plan to set aside some cabins as quarantine qtrs in case some one is infected i also believe they will have some mini ventilators also (but i cant confirm that), also they will be vetting with temp checks and such before ppl board. of course there will be some risk, just as there is in the land based businesses opening. 

[hftmrock]

Just now, seaman11 said:

this is a good post.  I do think though they have a good plan, they also plan to set aside some cabins as quarantine qtrs in case some one is infected i also believe they will have some mini ventilators also (but i cant confirm that), also they will be vetting with temp checks and such before ppl board. of course there will be some risk, just as there is in the land based businesses opening. 

its much  more of a risk because they are so far from land.

[seaman11]

2 minutes ago, hftmrock said:

its much  more of a risk because they are so far from land.

thats why . start with smaller and shorter  trips.  they can hug the coasts .  florida to the bahamas and such. Also if one had no symptoms coming on board it could take days up to 14 to actually show signs. you wouldn't go from healthy day one to day 3 on a ventilator.  so this is why 3-5 day cruises should be fine as a test run the first month they restart. 

[pcakes122]

25 minutes ago, seaman11 said:

this is a good post.  I do think though they have a good plan, they also plan to set aside  also they will be vetting with temp checks 

NCL took my temperature on embarkation AND again at disembarkation. Didn't detect my Covid-19. I NEVER had a fever throughout the entire 2 months I was sick.

 

So, not a very effective vetting tool.

[seaman11]

1 minute ago, pcakes122 said:

NCL took my temperature on embarkation AND again at disembarkation. Didn't detect my Covid-19. I NEVER had a fever throughout the entire 2 months I was sick.

 

So, not a very effective vetting tool.

maybe you didnt have it on board ?  but i dont think thats the only vetting they will do. hence why i said vetting and temp checks . 

[seaman11]

8 hours ago, beerman2 said:

They can't start in June no matter how limited until the CDC recinds the order , which is scheduled to end July 24th. 

 

Until July 24th as it stands Now " NO Sailing"!  There is no interpretation to it. Now we can speculate if CDC will relent , however it isn't likely. CLIA can state whatever, they don't have final say.

right i agree it now looks like they wont , but what i am saying is , if other things are opening now it is unfair to tell cruises they cant restart slowly  in 2 months . 

[Cafedumonde]

If folks are worried, just don’t sail.  That goes for employees as well.  Others are not worried about covid at all.  A bad cold for us, no big deal.  Plenty of us already have the antibodies now as well.  I don’t see why cruising is shut down at this point if there are people ready to go, especially for cruises of 7 nights or less. The curve has been flattened and cruises will have more medical equipment on board.  We also know a lot more about how to treat the virus for people who have a rough time with it.

[pcakes122]

2 minutes ago, seaman11 said:

maybe you didnt have it on board ?  but i dont think thats the only vetting they will do. hence why i said vetting and temp checks . 

I absolutely had it on board. I was sick in my cabin most of the cruise because I was just too fatigued to go anywhere - by Day 3 I was exhausted  and I didn't know why.  Being sick actually caused me to social distance because I could barely leave my cabin.  I NEVER went to the buffet, any theater or entertainment venue, The Atrium, any specialty restaurant, the spa, the gym or any other common areas except for the Haven Restaurant (maybe 2-3 times) and the casino three times exactly.  I was purposely avoiding these areas from the time I got on the ship because Covid was in the news at that point. I had also brought my own disinfectant from home and sanitized all of the cabin door handles, telephones, remote controls, etc. (I was in the Deluxe Owner's Suite.) My full respiratory symptoms kicked in the day before disembarkation. I received the email from NCL the day after I returned home advising that there had been a confirmed case on the Bliss so that's when I got tested and my results were positive.

 

I've been very vocal on this topic because I was 1000% confident that I was going to be absolutely fine on my cruise. The cruise left on March 8th and all of my family and friends told me I was absolutely crazy for getting on a cruise ship when this pandemic was starting. I  told them all that I was not going to live my life afraid and that I was going to be just fine and I was going to take proper precautions and be smart.  I thought they were being over-cautious and frankly a little ridiculous.

 

I WAS AN IDIOT.  A very, very lucky one who managed to live to tell this story.

 

I hear myself in many of you and I feel compelled to post my experience and over because you may not be as lucky as I was.

 

If I save even one of you it is worth it for me to keep repeating myself.  Please think carefully and don't take chances ESPECIALLY if you are over 60 or have underlying medical conditions. Stay safe! 😷

[pcakes122]

11 minutes ago, Cafedumonde said:

 Plenty of us already have the antibodies now as well.

I have antibodies too, but there is no guarantee of immunity according to the latest science.

[HaveWeMetYet]

10 minutes ago, Cafedumonde said:

If folks are worried, just don’t sail.  That goes for employees as well.  Others are not worried about covid at all.  A bad cold for us, no big deal.  Plenty of us already have the antibodies now as well.  I don’t see why cruising is shut down at this point if there are people ready to go, especially for cruises of 7 nights or less. The curve has been flattened and cruises will have more medical equipment on board.  We also know a lot more about how to treat the virus for people who have a rough time with it.

It is the liability the cruise lines face if there is an outbreak that keeps them shutdown. The average age of death in the US is 78 for Covid. The average for all causes is 77. But the cruise lines can't restrict passenger to certain ages like up to 60. Of course the CDC has a say and that may end up being more of a problem that anything.

[Budget Queen]

1 hour ago, seaman11 said:

thats why . start with smaller and shorter  trips.  they can hug the coasts .  florida to the bahamas and such. Also if one had no symptoms coming on board it could take days up to 14 to actually show signs. you wouldn't go from healthy day one to day 3 on a ventilator.  so this is why 3-5 day cruises should be fine as a test run the first month they restart. 

What does this indicate????  NOTHING.   It pure chance what comes together.    Unless, you are thinking the stats and your data will be positive with short sailings due to the limited ability of tracking???     ONE infected random person,  has endless potential of transmission.   And  symptoms run the range and can go to ventilation rapidly.   

 

So just infect people and push them off the ship-  to move along?    Yeah great plan.  

[Budget Queen]

1 hour ago, Cafedumonde said:

If folks are worried, just don’t sail.  That goes for employees as well.  Others are not worried about covid at all.  A bad cold for us, no big deal.  Plenty of us already have the antibodies now as well.  I don’t see why cruising is shut down at this point if there are people ready to go, especially for cruises of 7 nights or less. The curve has been flattened and cruises will have more medical equipment on board.  We also know a lot more about how to treat the virus for people who have a rough time with it.

Your thinking is grossly simplistic.   Obviously you are not a health care professional.    

 

So you're saying -  for employees to just walk away?  and cruise ships can have sick passengers,  lined up-  what-   taking numbers, and no staff to provide expertise of treatment?   You have got to be kidding.    You might want to take a closer look at "antibodies" and actions and dynamics of viruses.   Especially mutation information.   And while your at it-  get some facts on the flu. -  especially the details of vaccines-  WHY it needs to be formulated every year.  

[pcakes122]

7 minutes ago, Budget Queen said:

And  symptoms run the range and can go to ventilation rapidly. 

IN A DAY.  Silent hypoxia is huge Covid-19 symptom! The problem is that many people posting here have no clue about Covid-19. They think that people would know if they have it (wrong) and that if you need to be on a ventilator you would be gasping for breath (wrong again.)

 

Early during the pandemic doctors were noticing that patients coming to the ER for their cough and fever were breathing normally, but their blood oxygen levels were extremely low.  Like to the point where they should almost be dead. Doctors had to immediately vent these patients and were saying in some cases they had to force people to get off their cellphones to be vented! (normally if you need to be vented you are at the point where you can't even get a sentence out.)  Just imagine a breakout on a cruise ship where multiple people needed to be vented. 😮

 

https://www.freethink.com/articles/silent-hypoxia

[HaveWeMetYet]

14 minutes ago, Budget Queen said:

What does this indicate????  NOTHING.   It pure chance what comes together.    Unless, you are thinking the stats and your data will be positive with short sailings due to the limited ability of tracking???     ONE infected random person,  has endless potential of transmission.   And  symptoms run the range and can go to ventilation rapidly.   

 

So just infect people and push them off the ship-  to move along?    Yeah great plan.  

You are correct that one infected person has endless potential of transmission. But if you are going to shutdown cruise lines with that reasoning then you should shutdown everything. The only effective method to prevent infection is total isolation.

[pcakes122]

4 minutes ago, HaveWeMetYet said:

You are correct that one infected person has endless potential of transmission. But if you are going to shutdown cruise lines with that reasoning then you should shutdown everything. The only effective method to prevent infection is total isolation.

Actually that's not true. The reason for shutting down cruise lines is because there is not adequate medical treatment for the virus on a cruise ship. That doesn't apply to land businesses or services.

[HaveWeMetYet]

22 minutes ago, pcakes122 said:

Actually that's not true. The reason for shutting down cruise lines is because there is not adequate medical treatment for the virus on a cruise ship. That doesn't apply to land businesses or services.

I just meant in terms of potential for transmission.

The cruise lines face enormous problems with liability. It is fairly easy to prove you were infected on a ship if you were tested beforehand and were negative and if a large number become ill the lawsuits we doom them. The Washington state choir practice case shows the problem the cruise lines face. In a confined area forget 6 feet apart. I doubt 20 yards is enough.

[hamrag]

11 hours ago, pcakes122 said:

I truly wish you would stop saying this Seaman. The cruise industry is not being vilified....

 

There is very little which Seaman writes that I would agree with....on this particular point I do, as there was minimal demonstrated Covid-19 infection on the vast majority of cruiselines (Princess excepted). The cruise industry has been unfairly vilified, where other travel industry aspects have not (e.g. airlines).....IMHO. 

 

Do I think it is sensible for cruise ships to sail anytime soon....I don't, because of the 'mass gathering' aspect you have pointed out on various posts. Once cruiselines come up with realistic plans to mitigate risk, I think they should be allowed to sail and potential passengers can decide whether or not the risks are acceptable....for me, that is at least 6 months in the future.

[hamrag]

7 hours ago, pcakes122 said:

.....I contracted Covid-19 on the Bliss in March and NCL is NOT counting me. The numbers they have reported to the CDC are only those confirmed cases that they KNOW about....

 

6 hours ago, pcakes122 said:

I absolutely had it on board. I was sick in my cabin most of the cruise because I was just too fatigued to go anywhere - by Day 3 I was exhausted  and I didn't know why....

 

I am sorry you contracted Covid-19, and agree that with such experience you are much, much better placed than Seaman or me to understand it's effect. Further, I am glad you finally recovered so well from that dreadful experience.

 

However, whilst it is clear from your posts that you had it on board, what can never be certain is that you contracted it on board as you claim. You could have contracted it before or during travel, which seems much more likely given your comment that you were fatigued early in the cruise and by day 3 exhausted.....anything I have heard or read about Covid-19 suggests there is a longer period than 2 or 3 days between contracting and any symptoms, never mind exhaustion.

 

Please understand I am not trying to undermine the extent and reality of the virus in your case, merely pointing out that it is highly unlikely you contracted it on board.

Edited May 18, 2020 by hamrag

[beerman2]

7 hours ago, seaman11 said:

right i agree it now looks like they wont , but what i am saying is , if other things are opening now it is unfair to tell cruises they cant restart slowly  in 2 months . 

Seaman IF the cruiselines can upgrade their medical facilities to accommodate a breakout, they will be able to sail.

 

Probably  the "biggest" hurdle they must prove to CDC. Which includes ICU personal, ventilators, isolation rooms in that environment.

 

That is a huge task/investment.

 

[pcakes122]

2 hours ago, hamrag said:

However, whilst it is clear from your posts that you had it on board, what can never be certain is that you contracted it on board as you claim. You could have contracted it before or during travel, which seems much more likely given your comment that you were fatigued early in the cruise and by day 3 exhausted.....anything I have heard or read about Covid-19 suggests there is a longer period than 2 or 3 days between contracting and any symptoms, never mind exhaustion.

 

Please understand I am not trying to undermine the extent and reality of the virus in your case, merely pointing out that it is highly unlikely you contracted it on board.

I can understand how you might think that based on the info I have shared in my posts, but there are more details I have not shared before.  I know exactly where and from whom I contracted the virus.  It was my own friend.

 

First, I am disabled and 80% housebound normally, but in the weeks before the cruise I hadn't gone out at all  (busy working from home) and I drove myself to the pier in NYC.  Unless I contracted it from grocery or food delivery (which I commonly got even before Covid), I didn't bring it on the ship.  That said, on this cruise I was meeting a friend that I'd met in the casino on cruise several years ago.  We became cruise buddies and we frequently met up on cruises (we both get our own comp cabins from the casino.)  She lives in Westchester County, NY.  About a week prior to the cruise she had a fever and a sore throat.  She went to the doctor and was diagnosed with strep throat and was prescribed antibiotics.  She said her doctor told her she wasn't going to be contagious by our Sunday sailaway, and we'd both been looking forward to this trip for a long time.  By the time I saw her on Sunday was feeling fine (and she looked fine!)  She had NO fever (she passed the embarkation fever screening) and she said her sore throat was gone.  She had no cough.  

 

We we inseparable from the time we boarded and she spent alot of time in my cabin (she had a balcony - but I was in the Deluxe Owners Suite.)  She did not feel sick or did not show any symptoms of being sick during the entire cruise (in fact, she helped ME alot when I was so exhausted!)

 

She has never been sick since returning home, but was recently tested for Covid-19 antibodies which confirmed she'd had the virus.

 

Even my doctor concurs that this is how I contracted Covid.  I have not shared these details before because I didn't want to hear negative comments about her getting onboard sick.  She did NOT know she was still sick (or had Covid) when she got on board (although she was still on antibiotics.)  And neither did NCL's screening. 

[onetimearoundtheworld]

1 hour ago, beerman2 said:

Seaman IF the cruiselines can upgrade their medical facilities to accommodate a breakout, they will be able to sail.

 

Probably  the "biggest" hurdle they must prove to CDC. Which includes ICU personal, ventilators, isolation rooms in that environment.

 

 

That requirement will not stay. It just doesn't make sense. Here are other people with more knowledge on that but where should the line be drawn in regards to rescue and medical assistance at sea. To be able to handl any outbreak that requires infrastructure not even every hospital on land has for (cruise) ships is just ridiculous. 

 

There will be some kind of new guideline with fluffy text that will be face-saving for the CDC and CLIA.