How About a Cruise With No Ports for Safety

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

It isn’t viable in the old reality. You assume there won’t ever be changes in our economic system.

So, you see a general cut of 2/3 of shipyard worker's salary in the future?  You see a change in the aging of the US shipyard work force, where the average age is 55?  Or do you see US mariners being reduced to the wages of foreign crew?  Please, share your vision of the "new reality", where this would be economically viable.

[Charles4515]

So, you see a general cut of 2/3 of shipyard worker's salary in the future?  You see a change in the aging of the US shipyard work force, where the average age is 55?  Or do you see US mariners being reduced to the wages of foreign crew?  Please, share your vision of the "new reality", where this would be economically viable.

 

No, I don’t see that as being the new reality at all. As for my vision and how it could happen, I think that is politics and that is not allowed on Cruise Critic.

 

 

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[Daniel A]

52 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

It isn’t viable in the old reality. You assume there won’t ever be changes in our economic system. However as I have said I don’t think changing the PSVA is on the agenda now. I also don’t think changing the PSVA to allow cruises to nowhere is going to revive the cruise industry.

 

The changes that I would like see for PVSA would allow cruises from one US city to others without the required foreign port stop.  As long as they aren't in competition with US flagged ships engaged in the same activity.  I would take many more cruises if I could sail from New York to Key West/NOLA/Savannah/Charleston/ etc....  If many Caribbean countries wind up behind the vaccine/treatment curve, they may not reopen their ports to cruise ships for a very long time.  

[chengkp75]

36 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

The changes that I would like see for PVSA would allow cruises from one US city to others without the required foreign port stop.  As long as they aren't in competition with US flagged ships engaged in the same activity.  I would take many more cruises if I could sail from New York to Key West/NOLA/Savannah/Charleston/ etc....  If many Caribbean countries wind up behind the vaccine/treatment curve, they may not reopen their ports to cruise ships for a very long time.  

First, since American Cruises offers these services under US flag, there isn't much hope of getting a waiver for a foreign flag ship to do this.  To amend, as opposed to waive, the PVSA would be problematic until the international definition of passenger vessel (to which the US agrees via treaties and conventions) is changed from any ship carrying more than 12 passengers.

[Daniel A]

25 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

First, since American Cruises offers these services under US flag, there isn't much hope of getting a waiver for a foreign flag ship to do this.  To amend, as opposed to waive, the PVSA would be problematic until the international definition of passenger vessel (to which the US agrees via treaties and conventions) is changed from any ship carrying more than 12 passengers.

Hope springs eternal.🙂  A good test will come with Viking Mississippi in 2022 as to whether or not American built and flagged will be viable.  ( That is if Viking is still in business...)

 

The last time I checked American Cruises, they had a very limited itinerary.  Good to know, the Baltimore to Jacksonville trip looks good.  Thanks for the heads up.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Daniel A

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Hope springs eternal.🙂  A good test will come with Viking Mississippi in 2022 as to whether or not American built and flagged will be viable.  ( That is if Viking is still in business...)

 

The last time I checked American Cruises, they had a very limited itinerary.  Good to know, the Baltimore to Jacksonville trip looks good.  Thanks for the heads up.

While I applaud Viking for finally understanding that they had to meet the PVSA requirements, again the market and demographic are different than ocean cruises, and it will be interesting to see what the fares are, and how they compare with American Cruises and American Queen.

 

Yes, American Cruises are limited itineraries, they only have a few ships, and they are small.  Blount Adventure Cruises also, last I looked did some East Coast cruises.

 

As for hope, the wording of the Act specifically states that any waiver of the PVSA is conditional upon there being no US flag operation along the same route.  So, it would require Congress to amend the act, rather than a waiver.

[Daniel A]

10 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, American Cruises are limited itineraries, they only have a few ships, and they are small.  Blount Adventure Cruises also, last I looked did some East Coast cruises.

 

As for hope, the wording of the Act specifically states that any waiver of the PVSA is conditional upon there being no US flag operation along the same route.  So, it would require Congress to amend the act, rather than a waiver.

There is an article on Cruise Critic that American Cruises is going to start sailing again June 26.  Apparently the ships are small enough that they aren't covered by the CDC ban.

 

I think I also read that any waiver of PVSA can only be done at the request of the Secretary of Defense and Secretary of Homeland Security for a legitimate defense purpose.  Unlike the Jones Act where any waiver request from SECDEF is automatically approved, PVSA still requires such waiver requests to go through an approval process.

 

It's a good diversion from home confinement learning about all this. 

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, Daniel A said:

There is an article on Cruise Critic that American Cruises is going to start sailing again June 26.  Apparently the ships are small enough that they aren't covered by the CDC ban.

 

I think I also read that any waiver of PVSA can only be done at the request of the Secretary of Defense and Secretary of Homeland Security for a legitimate defense purpose.  Unlike the Jones Act where any waiver request from SECDEF is automatically approved, PVSA still requires such waiver requests to go through an approval process.

 

It's a good diversion from home confinement learning about all this. 

I am not aware that a Jones Act waiver is automatically approved for the DOD.  I used to work on a US flag RO/RO vessel that was built in Sweden, so was not Jones Act compliant, and when we were placed on MSC charter during the first Gulf War, the DOD repeatedly had us carry cargo between US ports, and we were consistently fined for Jones Act violations (which we passed back to our charterer, MSC (Military Sealift Command), so the DOD was financing DHS.  I don't know who was proposing the waivers of the Jones Act during hurricane Maria, but they were denied.

[Daniel A]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I am not aware that a Jones Act waiver is automatically approved for the DOD.  I used to work on a US flag RO/RO vessel that was built in Sweden, so was not Jones Act compliant, and when we were placed on MSC charter during the first Gulf War, the DOD repeatedly had us carry cargo between US ports, and we were consistently fined for Jones Act violations (which we passed back to our charterer, MSC (Military Sealift Command), so the DOD was financing DHS.  I don't know who was proposing the waivers of the Jones Act during hurricane Maria, but they were denied.

According to Blankrome Publications:  "All waiver requests by the Secretary of Defense must be granted. Specifically, the Waiver Provision states that “[o]n the request of the Secretary of Defense, the head of an agency responsible for the administration of the navigation or vessel-inspection laws shall waive compliance with those laws to the extent the Secretary considers it necessary in the interest of national defense.”

 

Apparently some congressmen asked the DHS Secretary to request a Jones Act Waiver after Maria but the DHS Secretary refused to request the waiver citing sufficient capacity for U.S. Flagged vessels.  This was due to extensive damage to the ports in Puerto Rico limiting the ability of the ports to handle increased capacity. 
 

[rkacruiser]

21 hours ago, Hlitner said:

It would be interesting to see how many folks would be willing to pay significantly higher prices for cruises because the ships are American flagged.  There are many reasons (not only taxes) why very few ships are US flagged.   I believe that American Hawaii Cruises had American flagged ships and that line went bankrupt. 

 

 

My experience sailing American flagged ships may be too long ago to be relevant to your comment, but as a young person in my profession (not noted for being a high paying one), I was able to pay for a stateroom on Pacific Far East Lines S. S. Monterey for my Mother and me on a Los Angeles-Honolulu-Honolulu-San Francisco-Los Angeles itinerary in 1977.

 

1986 found us on a 7 day Hawaiian cruise itinerary aboard American Hawaii Cruises' S. S. Independence.  A very good cruise on a rather well worn vessel, but the price was affordable.  American crews on both ships as I recall.  

 

What AHC's financial situation was and why they ceased operations, I don't recall.  

 

If sailing on an American flagged ship in 1977 and in 1986 could be made affordable then, why could not such happen now?  

[Charles4515]

 

My experience sailing American flagged ships may be too long ago to be relevant to your comment, but as a young person in my profession (not noted for being a high paying one), I was able to pay for a stateroom on Pacific Far East Lines S. S. Monterey for my Mother and me on a Los Angeles-Honolulu-Honolulu-San Francisco-Los Angeles itinerary in 1977.

 

1986 found us on a 7 day Hawaiian cruise itinerary aboard American Hawaii Cruises' S. S. Independence.  A very good cruise on a rather well worn vessel, but the price was affordable.  American crews on both ships as I recall.  

 

What AHC's financial situation was and why they ceased operations, I don't recall.  

 

If sailing on an American flagged ship in 1977 and in 1986 could be made affordable then, why could not such happen now?  

 

The NCL Pride of Aloha is not cheap but it is affordable. The reason I haven’t booked it is because I prefer Hawaii as a land vacation not because of the pricing.

 

 

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[Hlitner]

9 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

My experience sailing American flagged ships may be too long ago to be relevant to your comment, but as a young person in my profession (not noted for being a high paying one), I was able to pay for a stateroom on Pacific Far East Lines S. S. Monterey for my Mother and me on a Los Angeles-Honolulu-Honolulu-San Francisco-Los Angeles itinerary in 1977.

 

1986 found us on a 7 day Hawaiian cruise itinerary aboard American Hawaii Cruises' S. S. Independence.  A very good cruise on a rather well worn vessel, but the price was affordable.  American crews on both ships as I recall.  

 

What AHC's financial situation was and why they ceased operations, I don't recall.  

 

If sailing on an American flagged ship in 1977 and in 1986 could be made affordable then, why could not such happen now?  

WOW!  Where to start.  The Independence (my parents cruised her in 1952) was built by Bethlehem Steel in 1950.  At the time, American Export Lines had a few ships, all built in the USA.  Many might find it interesting that the Independence was about 23,000 tons!  But you ask why it could not happen now?  Well, one problem is that there are simply no modern cruise ships built in the USA (a requirement for American flagged vessels).  As has been mentioned, the cost of building a new vessel in the USA would cost multiples of building that same vessel in some of the efficient yards of Western Europe.  Why?  I will leave that for others since part of the problem is too political for CC.  At one time there were some decent US shipping lines (United States Lines comes to mind) but these companies gradually faded away for several reasons not the least of which was the high operating cost of US built/flagged vessels.   The few US flagged ships used in the 70s were all older vessels (now gone).   You might want to do some research and look for the last modern cruise ship built in the USA.  I think you will come up with nothing!

 

But is it possible to resurrect some US lines with modern new builds manufactured in the USA?  Absolutely!   But I wonder how many would be willing to pay the much higher price when compared to high quality European/Asian built ships which would operate at much lower costs since those ships would not need to adhere to US labor laws.   

 

Hank

[Daniel A]

56 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

WOW!  Where to start.  The Independence (my parents cruised her in 1952) was built by Bethlehem Steel in 1950.  At the time, American Export Lines had a few ships, all built in the USA.  Many might find it interesting that the Independence was about 23,000 tons!  But you ask why it could not happen now?  Well, one problem is that there are simply no modern cruise ships built in the USA (a requirement for American flagged vessels).  As has been mentioned, the cost of building a new vessel in the USA would cost multiples of building that same vessel in some of the efficient yards of Western Europe.  Why?  I will leave that for others since part of the problem is too political for CC.  At one time there were some decent US shipping lines (United States Lines comes to mind) but these companies gradually faded away for several reasons not the least of which was the high operating cost of US built/flagged vessels.   The few US flagged ships used in the 70s were all older vessels (now gone).   You might want to do some research and look for the last modern cruise ship built in the USA.  I think you will come up with nothing!

 

But is it possible to resurrect some US lines with modern new builds manufactured in the USA?  Absolutely!   But I wonder how many would be willing to pay the much higher price when compared to high quality European/Asian built ships which would operate at much lower costs since those ships would not need to adhere to US labor laws.   

 

Hank

I was just reading up on American Cruise lines doing river and coastal cruising.  They will be sailing to Alaska are flagged and built in the US manned by US citizens.  The ships are being built in their own Chesapeake Shipbuilding facility in Salisbury, Maryland.  If you look at their offerings, they're not outrageously priced either.  This is a sample of what they are building in Maryland.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

But you ask why it could not happen now?

Because the construction subsidies that were in place when those ships were built went the way of the Dodo under President Reagan.

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

I was just reading up on American Cruise lines doing river and coastal cruising.  They will be sailing to Alaska are flagged and built in the US manned by US citizens.  The ships are being built in their own Chesapeake Shipbuilding facility in Salisbury, Maryland.  If you look at their offerings, they're not outrageously priced either.  This is a sample of what they are building in Maryland.

 

We might actually try one of those new boats and look forward to the experience.    River and coastal US cruises are a market that has never been fully developed and some of the concepts are exciting.   But that is an entirely different industry/market then the world wide cruise industry.    But you might ask why very successful companies such as Viking and Avalon are not operating on US rivers?  It is one thing to develop a US business that is protected from most foreign competition, and an entirely different matter to try and compete in the world wide cruise industry.  

 

Hank

[Daniel A]

15 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

 

We might actually try one of those new boats and look forward to the experience.    River and coastal US cruises are a market that has never been fully developed and some of the concepts are exciting.   But that is an entirely different industry/market then the world wide cruise industry.    But you might ask why very successful companies such as Viking and Avalon are not operating on US rivers?  It is one thing to develop a US business that is protected from most foreign competition, and an entirely different matter to try and compete in the world wide cruise industry.  

 

Hank

Viking is having the Viking Mississippi built in Edison Chouest Offshore, Galliano, La. Viking will lease the Mississippi from Edison Chouest, flag it in the US and man it with a US crew.  Viking had originally planned to start cruising the Mississippi in August of 2022.

[Hlitner]

4 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Viking is having the Viking Mississippi built in Edison Chouest Offshore, Galliano, La. Viking will lease the Mississippi from Edison Chouest, flag it in the US and man it with a US crew.  Viking had originally planned to start cruising the Mississippi in August of 2022.

Thanks for that info as we had no clue.  They run a decent company and I hope they do not get destroyed by COVID-19.

 

Hank

[PrincessLuver]

41 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

Viking is backed by Russian oligarchs so they may have money....


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Viking is owned by a Norwegian billionaire.  
 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurendebter/2019/04/15/meet-the-man-who-started-viking-cruises-in-his-50s-after-being-fired-losing-millions-and-surviving-cancer/#23b8be3a2652

[suzyed]

On 5/23/2020 at 9:11 PM, brisalta said:

 

Supposedly spit tests for the active virus are becoming available as are antibody tests. Both of these types of tests supposedly are fairly rapid.  Question is how sensitive and how accurate are they.

The antibody test is a blood test.

[Charles4515]

Viking is owned by a Norwegian billionaire.  

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurendebter/2019/04/15/meet-the-man-who-started-viking-cruises-in-his-50s-after-being-fired-losing-millions-and-surviving-cancer/#23b8be3a2652

 

After going bankrupt he obtained four river ships from Russian oligarchs that became Viking. Viking was founded in St. Petersburg Russia.

 

 

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[brisalta]

2 minutes ago, suzyed said:

The antibody test is a blood test.

 

That is one form of it but there is also a spit based one under development.

[suzyed]

On 5/24/2020 at 1:20 PM, Cruise Raider said:

Count me in on that cruise without any stops, especially if it were up in Alaska where the scenery is the main attraction!  Just think, it would even keep the port charges to a minimum.   But, I realize that is just me as I am not one to travel for the ports as much as for cruise itself.... oftentimes, we don't even get off when in the ports.  At 50% capacity, that would be a dream cruise IMO.  

I see that Canada is considering allowing cruiselines to stop to pick up supplies but, no passengers can get off the ship and of course, no embarkation / disembarkation in one of their ports.  I don't know how this would work out in light of US maritime laws.  I'm sure when the cruiselines start back up, they request an exception to the PVSA .. whether or not they get it, that is another question.  

Sounds like the last 18 days of our Coral Princess cruise!  The last port we went to was the Falklands on March 13th and didn't get off the ship until April 4th-10th.  That's a long time to be at sea and not set foot on land!

 

[brisalta]

On 5/26/2020 at 7:54 AM, gmjc2 said:

Wow, you are going to ignore multiple articles on the subject just because they are on the internet! Incidentally where did you get your information from? Most likely the internet is my guess!!!  Just saying!!!   LOL!

 

Your sources are incorrect!

"Generally, the coastwise laws prohibit the transportation of passengers or merchandisebetween points in the United States embraced within the coastwise laws in any vessel other than a vessel built in, documented under the laws of, and owned by citizens of the United States. The coastwise law pertaining to the transportation of merchandise is known as the Jones Act, codified at 46 U.S.C. § 55102. The coastwise law pertaining to the transportation of passengers is known as the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA),codified at 46 U.S.C. § 55103."

That is from:

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Sep/PVSA-ICP.pdf

 

You can look up the actual full text of the codes at the Congressional web site.

 

 

 

 

[brisalta]

On 5/26/2020 at 8:15 AM, gmjc2 said:

Interesting. The laws maybe as he sees written but the interpretation of them is as current cruise lines use them. If they were not pertaining to their business they would not use them. It is indisputable that almost all ships are registered in foreign ports so the Jones Act is applicable as they are not considered US ships. Why else would they have to cancel the Alaska cruise because of the closure of Victoria? The cruise lines themselves quoted the Jones Act!

 

Anyway enough said. I was willing to concede that we were both right but I guess he/she is not.

Change of subject.  How is everyone doing today!!!

 

Why do you keep writing incorrect information?

[caribill]

7 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

 

The NCL Pride of Aloha is not cheap but it is affordable.

 

 

In 2017, Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings President and CEO Frank Del Rio called the vessel the highest yielding in the company's fleet.

 

source:

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/23000-hawaii-predicts-no-cruise-passengers-until-second-half-of-2021.html