AndyMichelle Posted June 21, 2020 #201 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Everything said is correct in theory, but I can't imagine Carnival or any other line taking on, or being allowed to take on more liability when they are surviving on Billions of dollars in deposit liability, which is not seen as their money yet, and loans. Their future is uncertain if cruising doesn't resume soon, it would be regarded as reckless to do anything but consolidate at the moment. Andy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Selbourne Posted June 21, 2020 #202 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, molecrochip said: If CMV were to fail, an administrator can pick and choose what he sells to maximise the return available. In the same way, Carnival could come along and offer to project voyages if it can buy the biggest two ships, maybe some IP or the name. It doesn't have to buy what it doesn't want. Where things get 'clever' is if same Carnival teamed up with Fred to launch a joint bid for most of the assets with a pre-agreed split of who gets what afterwards. This is attractive to an administrator as it maximises return. I understand how company administrations and insolvencies work, but P&O does not need more ships, let alone ancient ones, however cheap they may be. The cost of buying them is just the start. Then there’s the cost of getting them to the required standard and then running them, all at a time when the industry is on its knees. As I say, the oldest P&O ships are better than the newest CMV ones and the cruise industry is going to take some years to even get back to where it was last year, let alone achieve the originally projected growth. P&O is going to have its work cut out just to get back to where it was. It therefore makes no sense whatsoever IMO for them to buy CMV. Collapse of CMV is P&O’s best outcome. They are bound to pick up some of their customers at zero cost and it will help address their over capacity problem. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denarius Posted June 21, 2020 #203 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) I do not believe that there is any chance whatsoever of P&O buying CMV ships should they go bust. But it could make the difference between them selling or retaining one of their smaller ships if they felt that they could pick up a good proportion of former CMV passengers who may favour that size of vessel. Edited June 21, 2020 by Denarius 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majortom10 Posted June 21, 2020 #204 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 hours ago, wowzz said: Not sure where you looked, but the Saga web site clearly states that all drinks are free at all times in all venues, and that there is no supplement for speciality dining venues. Our cruise doesn't go to Flam, so not bothered about the overnight stop. https://travel.saga.co.uk/cruises/ocean/find-your-cruise/all-inclusive.aspx I would read that link again, only unlimited selected drinks and Saga house branded spirits so know well known brand spirits are included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majortom10 Posted June 21, 2020 #205 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Am I in the wrong if CMV did go into administration then the ships would not be for sale as they are leased from another company and not owned by CMV. So if I am right surely the ships would be returned to their owners and not any part of the administration process. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No pager thank you Posted June 21, 2020 #206 Share Posted June 21, 2020 28 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said: Everything said is correct in theory, but I can't imagine Carnival or any other line taking on, or being allowed to take on more liability when they are surviving on Billions of dollars in deposit liability, which is not seen as their money yet, and loans. Their future is uncertain if cruising doesn't resume soon, it would be regarded as reckless to do anything but consolidate at the moment. Andy If the market is going to consolidate, then Gala 2 would have to be scrapped first? The truth is if anyone had known five years ago of this year's pandemic, then Iona most probably would not be being constructed now. Iona creates an unexpected problem for P&O - would have been delayed for 2-3 years. Gala 2 is £750m+ of new capital, whereas the savings from taking one of the smaller ships would be far less. However, Carnival shows no intention of doing that and has been pointed out by other posters, the overall size of the fleet will increase, taking in to account new commissions and deleting the smaller vessels. Their strategy appears to be to upscale the fleet, deleting the smaller ships gradually. It just remains to be seen if the "opportunity" of a CMV collapse may allow them (+ Fred) to split their offer, across any administration or negotiation with the parent company, and respond to what their traditional customers want, as opposed to constantly target the "new age" group. If Carnival don't go for CMV (at all) and carry on with Gala 2, then you can read across that the next three ships to leave the P&O fleet will probably be Oceana, Aurora, and Arcadia - probably in that order; replaced by two larger Excellence + class vessels. Probably quicker than otherwise was going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No pager thank you Posted June 21, 2020 #207 Share Posted June 21, 2020 In that scenario, as said by others, then traditional cruisers will either follow the times (reluctantly) or drift towards Saga, Fred, Viking etc, and/or Cunard. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapau27 Posted June 21, 2020 #208 Share Posted June 21, 2020 47 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said: Everything said is correct in theory, but I can't imagine Carnival or any other line taking on, or being allowed to take on more liability when they are surviving on Billions of dollars in deposit liability, which is not seen as their money yet, and loans. Their future is uncertain if cruising doesn't resume soon, it would be regarded as reckless to do anything but consolidate at the moment. Andy I agree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMichelle Posted June 21, 2020 #209 Share Posted June 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, No pager thank you said: If the market is going to consolidate, then Gala 2 would have to be scrapped first? The truth is if anyone had known five years ago of this year's pandemic, then Iona most probably would not be being constructed now. Iona creates an unexpected problem for P&O - would have been delayed for 2-3 years. Gala 2 is £750m+ of new capital, whereas the savings from taking one of the smaller ships would be far less. However, Carnival shows no intention of doing that and has been pointed out by other posters, the overall size of the fleet will increase, taking in to account new commissions and deleting the smaller vessels. Their strategy appears to be to upscale the fleet, deleting the smaller ships gradually. It just remains to be seen if the "opportunity" of a CMV collapse may allow them (+ Fred) to split their offer, across any administration or negotiation with the parent company, and respond to what their traditional customers want, as opposed to constantly target the "new age" group. If Carnival don't go for CMV (at all) and carry on with Gala 2, then you can read across that the next three ships to leave the P&O fleet will probably be Oceana, Aurora, and Arcadia - probably in that order; replaced by two larger Excellence + class vessels. Probably quicker than otherwise was going to happen. I doubt they can get out of the contracts for the new ships, millions would have been invested to get to this stage, but I'm sure they will delay Iona2 as long as they can. Committed money against spending new money are completely different. Taking on old stock while you are not even sailing and having to maintain it, refurbish it and man it, or continuing with plans that you are already committed to that will probably delay for a while that is costing you nothing today? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josy1953 Posted June 21, 2020 #210 Share Posted June 21, 2020 I can't see Carnival taking on CMV's ships, they are too old. CMV Columbus was originally built for Carnival, we sailed on her as Star Princess in 1989, then as Arcadia in 2000. I believe she then became Ocean Village. She is now over 30 years old. I am not sure how old their other ships are but Columbus is probably one of the newer ones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No pager thank you Posted June 21, 2020 #211 Share Posted June 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said: I doubt they can get out of the contracts for the new ships, millions would have been invested to get to this stage, but I'm sure they will delay Iona2 as long as they can. Committed money against spending new money are completely different. Taking on old stock while you are not even sailing and having to maintain it, refurbish it and man it, or continuing with plans that you are already committed to that will probably delay for a while that is costing you nothing today? Andy Fair points, thank you. As an aside, The Guardian reported that Carnival was an existing creditor of CMV, so it may well acquire some "assets" if CMV collapses. How it disposes of them may indicate whether or not Carnival (and their backers) see the future of cruising to be on more of a "V" shaped demand curve, versus a "U." That will address how strong the future of cruising is seen to be, and also how far Carnival think that the "traditional" British cruising market will be prepared to upscale on to larger ships, in time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adawn47 Posted June 21, 2020 #212 Share Posted June 21, 2020 20 minutes ago, No pager thank you said: In that scenario, as said by others, then traditional cruisers will either follow the times (reluctantly) or drift towards Saga, Fred, Viking etc, and/or Cunard. I certainly wouldn't consider the larger ships at all. I want a leisurely cruise from port to port, not be carted about in an ugly block of flats and theme park. That's not my idea of a cruise no matter what Carnival think. Avril 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No pager thank you Posted June 21, 2020 #213 Share Posted June 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Adawn47 said: I certainly wouldn't consider the larger ships at all. I want a leisurely cruise from port to port, not be carted about in an ugly block of flats and theme park. That's not my idea of a cruise no matter what Carnival think. Avril If I may say so Avril, I think that you are part of a strong minority view here. My feeling is that with the loss of Adonia, Oriana and possibly Oceana now, the Americans are at risk of under estimating how strongly this strong minority feels about the issue of the design and ambience of their ship. They of course won't care if you switch to Cunard, but won't want to lose your custom from the Carnival "umbrella." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Eddie99 Posted June 21, 2020 #214 Share Posted June 21, 2020 ... and they could ease that by “Anglicising” Cunard. Back to £, gratuities included etc but at a premium from “new P&O” Actually, that’s not such a bad prospect as long as the premium isn’t too great. IMO the ships themselves are just lovely 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adawn47 Posted June 21, 2020 #215 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, No pager thank you said: If I may say so Avril, I think that you are part of a strong minority view here. My feeling is that with the loss of Adonia, Oriana and possibly Oceana now, the Americans are at risk of under estimating how strongly this strong minority feels about the issue of the design and ambience of their ship. They of course won't care if you switch to Cunard, but won't want to lose your custom from the Carnival "umbrella." They will undoubtedly lose my custom and many others too. I will not stay with the Carnival brand and probably give Fred a try as i still want to continue cruising. We may only be a small minority but I am not a sheep that is willingly led to be fleeced by a company that refuses to believe that I don't want to be 'Americanised' Avril Edited June 21, 2020 by Adawn47 Added text 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMichelle Posted June 21, 2020 #216 Share Posted June 21, 2020 21 minutes ago, Adawn47 said: They will undoubtedly lose my custom and many others too. I will not stay with the Carnival brand and probably give Fred a try as i still want to continue cruising. We may only be a small minority but I am not a sheep that is willingly led to be fleeced by a company that refuses to believe that I don't want to be 'Americanised' Avril I am so torn on this... Our favourite ships are Aurora and Britannia. Whenever I get on Aurora, I spend the first couple of days pining for Britannias technology, entertainment and choice of bars, restaurants etc, but soon settle in to the relaxed beauty that is Aurora.. They are 2 different holidays, but we love both. We booked Iona, decided we wouldn't like it and switched back to Aurora but have now cancelled that to book Iona again.... Confused.com... Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowzz Posted June 21, 2020 #217 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 hour ago, majortom10 said: I would read that link again, only unlimited selected drinks and Saga house branded spirits so know well known brand spirits are included. Doesn't bother us. Beer and wine is included, what else do you need ? Mrs W has the odd G&T, but not bothered about what brand.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zap99 Posted June 21, 2020 #218 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Josy1953 said: I can't see Carnival taking on CMV's ships, they are too old. CMV Columbus was originally built for Carnival, we sailed on her as Star Princess in 1989, then as Arcadia in 2000. I believe she then became Ocean Village. She is now over 30 years old. I am not sure how old their other ships are but Columbus is probably one of the newer ones. Yes, Columbus was OV1. The other newer one was OV2, ex Aida. Sent to P&O Australia then dumped to CMV. I don't see why P&O would want them back, especially as Carnival have better and newer ships in their fleet, which may soon be surplus to requirements. Edited June 21, 2020 by zap99 Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adawn47 Posted June 21, 2020 #219 Share Posted June 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said: I am so torn on this... Our favourite ships are Aurora and Britannia. Whenever I get on Aurora, I spend the first couple of days pining for Britannias technology, entertainment and choice of bars, restaurants etc, but soon settle in to the relaxed beauty that is Aurora.. They are 2 different holidays, but we love both. We booked Iona, decided we wouldn't like it and switched back to Aurora but have now cancelled that to book Iona again.... Confused.com... Andy Frank and I have one or two years on you Andy (cough cough)😉 and we've had our times of eating , drinking and partying holidays so now we just want the calm, peaceful, laid back type of cruising that Aurora and Arcadia gives us. We still like to have fun and a drink or three but at less frenetic pace. The head and heart might be up for a good ol' party, but unfortunately the body couldn't keep up anymore.😂 Avril 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare ToxM Posted June 21, 2020 #220 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 hours ago, majortom10 said: I would read that link again, only unlimited selected drinks and Saga house branded spirits so know well known brand spirits are included. Even regent charges for their premium premium brands, so this doesn’t mean Saga isn’t all inclusive, it just means they are following the pattern of the industry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowzz Posted June 21, 2020 #221 Share Posted June 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, ToxM said: Even regent charges for their premium premium brands, so this doesn’t mean Saga isn’t all inclusive, it just means they are following the pattern of the industry. Exactly the same as many AI hotels (although we try and avoid them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britboys Posted June 21, 2020 #222 Share Posted June 21, 2020 3 hours ago, majortom10 said: Am I in the wrong if CMV did go into administration then the ships would not be for sale as they are leased from another company and not owned by CMV. So if I am right surely the ships would be returned to their owners and not any part of the administration process. Yes, sort of. I guess it depends who goes into Administration. As I said earlier in this thread, CMV sell and operate the cruises but most of the ships are leased from Global Cruise Lines in Greece. Global Cruise Lines is part of Global Maritime Group, who manage cruise ships and also provide hotel and crew/entertainment teams for cruise ships too. It may therefore depend on whether CMV, Global, or both go bust?..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare DamianG Posted June 21, 2020 #223 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 hour ago, AndyMichelle said: I am so torn on this... Our favourite ships are Aurora and Britannia. Whenever I get on Aurora, I spend the first couple of days pining for Britannias technology, entertainment and choice of bars, restaurants etc, but soon settle in to the relaxed beauty that is Aurora.. They are 2 different holidays, but we love both. We booked Iona, decided we wouldn't like it and switched back to Aurora but have now cancelled that to book Iona again.... Confused.com... Andy We used to love going on Oriana and Aurora when we could, but our son found even Ventura "too old" last year because of the lack of variety and functionality on the cabin TV. So it will be Britannia or Azura cruises for us if and when cruising resumes. I shudder at the thought of being on Iona with 5,203 other passengers but I guess we'll probably end up giving it a try one day depending on price, date and itinerary. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeanlyon Posted June 21, 2020 #224 Share Posted June 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Adawn47 said: I certainly wouldn't consider the larger ships at all. I want a leisurely cruise from port to port, not be carted about in an ugly block of flats and theme park. That's not my idea of a cruise no matter what Carnival think. Avril Avril, I am with you there all the way. Cruising used to be about being on a ship, not on a floating hotel block. Part of the pleasure for me is sitting on the Prom deck with a book around sunset with the sound of the sea. I don't want all these other things. We thought Azura was the worst we had been on, so we wouldn't be trying anything that size again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adawn47 Posted June 21, 2020 #225 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, jeanlyon said: Avril, I am with you there all the way. Cruising used to be about being on a ship, not on a floating hotel block. Part of the pleasure for me is sitting on the Prom deck with a book around sunset with the sound of the sea. I don't want all these other things. We thought Azura was the worst we had been on, so we wouldn't be trying anything that size again. My idea of hell was RCI'S Indy. I admit she's beautiful, but to us it was a full on American party ship. I hated being greeted everywhere we went with a cheery o.t.t "Hi Guys" On an 18 night cruise it drove me mad. It had everything a person could want except peace and quiet. If that had been our first cruise it would have been the last. Avril Edited June 21, 2020 by Adawn47 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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