Carnival to Dump Six Ships

[No pager thank you]

19 minutes ago, jeanlyon said:

I don't think they want loyal, traditional customers.  They just want to fill bigger and bigger ships.

Also agree Jean.

 

On a personal level, I wouldn't call myself a traditionalist (but then have had several great relaxing holidays on Aurora), however to be honest, I'd just wish that they would use this planning opportunity to get on with defining the product properly. 

 

I don't use a card room much but then to me, the idea of innovation is not a gelato bar either (for instance) - as is planned under that category for Iona.

 

The only thing that the "traditionalists" can do is not to book Iona and Britannia out of season, when fares are cheaper and families are unable to travel as otherwise the market keeps being generated.  If the ship doesn't cater for you, don't go.

Edited June 19, 2020 by No pager thank you
Typo

[No pager thank you]

5 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I doubt that P&O will be permitted to buy a new 2000 passenger ship by Carnival, unless the covid pandemic has a marked effect on cruising preferences. The latest HAL Pinnacle class ships, although still a very similar platform to the old Vista class, like Arcadia, have now grown to take 3000+ passengers.

Similarly I doubt Carnival would want to take an older ship and refit it to make it feel new, which leaves P&O with the bigger ships once Aurora and Arcadia are retired.

So UK passengers wanting the small ship feel will need to look at Azamara or Oceania for fly cruises or the new Saga ships for UK round trip cruises, and they all have much higher fares than even Aurora and Arcadia. Or they will have to accept Fred's old ladies, or hope CMV survive.

I agree with you John.  The problem here is not enough scope is being given to the "sub brand" P&O who understand some of this versus the dominant Carnival planning model. 

 

But the current planning model risks alienating both groups, in very different ways and this accelerated fleet change risks exaggerating the conflict in the brand.

[jeanlyon]

I suppose the traditionalist is someone who just wants to be on a ship and to cruise to nice ports.  Don't need celeb shows, don't want specialty restaurants, etc. etc.  As long as there is fairly good food, a show or two and a nice bar, that's all I need.

 

All these gimmicks leave me cold.  But that's they way of the new ships.  Also they don't look like a ship. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by jeanlyon

[terrierjohn]

1 minute ago, No pager thank you said:

I agree with you John.  The problem here is not enough scope is being given to the "sub brand" P&O who understand some of this versus the dominant Carnival planning model. 

 

But the current planning model risks alienating both groups, in very different ways and this accelerated fleet change risks exaggerating the conflict in the brand.

TBH I don't believe that any cruise line has difficulty filling their ships during school holidays, which is when young families take their holidays. Also I doubt that those young couples or singles, who want the RCI, NCL experience would ever consider P&O, but those wanting a Princess or Celebrity experience will certainly consider the bigger P&O ships offer a cheaper option. if not exactly as plush or polished.

So IMO P&O do seem to have found their niche, and I have never yet sailed on a ship that was not just about full.

[No pager thank you]

1 minute ago, terrierjohn said:

So IMO P&O do seem to have found their niche, and I have never yet sailed on a ship that was not just about full.

Fair point, so if they have found the niche, why keep changing beyond natural incremental movement?

 

I've been on all the current ships in the fleet, mostly full, some peak, some off peak.  On each sailing, more "traditional cruisers" than "new age," often the clientele most obviously the former.

 

Almost without exception, the "traditional cruisers" on any ship apart from Aurora and Arcadia often grumble from my experience.  Without them, the larger ships wouldn't fill outside of season I think fair to say though.

 

The problem is brand loyalty.  Stop the brand loyalty, as opposed to the product loyalty, and the niche will accordingly re-define itself, most likely for the benefit of all.

[wowzz]

As a thought, would it not be possible for P&O to adopt the "Yacht Club" scenario as practised by MSC? Basically you are in a sanctum, away from the hoi polloi.

Seperate pool, restaurants etc.

Having said that, when you arrive at a destination,  you will still be engulfed by the 5,000 other pax. 

The downside,  as I see it, is that the yacht club is almost as expensive as a bespoke line such as Viking.

[No pager thank you]

6 minutes ago, wowzz said:

As a thought, would it not be possible for P&O to adopt the "Yacht Club" scenario as practised by MSC? Basically you are in a sanctum, away from the hoi polloi.

Seperate pool, restaurants etc.

Having said that, when you arrive at a destination,  you will still be engulfed by the 5,000 other pax. 

The downside,  as I see it, is that the yacht club is almost as expensive as a bespoke line such as Viking.

That would be a possibility Wowzz, but at the premium price point it would create, I should imagine that the likes of Saga (and probably a few of the upmarket Carnival sub brands) would become a better match for the clientele in terms of perceived value for money?  Not sure if you would agree?  I wouldn't pay it, but then that's just me.

 

I would also imagine that to draw in punters to a Yacht Club style concept, the itineraries would need to be more typically geared along the lines of the "Discovery" cruises, as opposed to the North Europe, Nordic, Canary, Italian /Med and Spain, Portugal and France and Carribbean Fly Cruises that are the more "staple" voyages for the 7-14 day cruises.

 

However, I can't see P&O finding it easy to fill up the other "non Yacht" cabins week in week out in that case, given that they carefully charge a premium for such "Discovery" cruises often, sometimes up to double per passenger per night.  Do able on Arcadia, more difficult to sell at triple the passenger volume perhaps?

 

I think that's it more likely they will continue their current strategy of not quite meeting anyone's ideal, but doing just about enough to protect a niche in the medium term, unless they make a more fatal error such as getting rid of Aurora and/or Arcadia "in favour of" Gala 2 - with water parks and such like.

[ToxM]

P&O need to up their mini suite/suite class amenities in order to be able to compete with Saga’s entry level offering. Adult only ships are a huge market and whilst they have an edge by pretty much cornering the Southampton departure market the “silver pound” brigade are much more discerning and all inclusive drinks and tours (as Saga will be offering if/when all this calms down and goes back to how it was) are going to be a huge draw. 

 

The premium for a suite and the resultant offerings as perks are windows dressing around space, and are losing ground against Saga. 

[wowzz]

Tom and No Pager. Thanks for your replies. We have actually booked  a Saga 7 day cruise next March (hopefully). Although the initial cost looked high, once we took into account the cabin size, free drinks, transport to and from the cruise, etc, plus the fact that there were only 1000 pax on board, we felt the price was good value.

I do feel that P&O do need to be careful with regard to their pricing architecture  - the prices for their mini suites and suites are now very close to Viking and Saga prices, without offering the same exclusivity you get on those rather more premium lines.

 

 

[Eddie99]

We’re looking at Saga too, should we be able to cruise at some point in the future.  As you say, prices look eye-watering at first but if you consider all the included items, from chauffeur to & from port, all beverages, gratuities, some excursions, insurance, it seems more acceptable.

Plus, the itineraries look more interesting 

 

 

Going back to the previous page  - here’s a link to an article about the CMV situation.  Poor crew 🙁

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/19/uk-port-authorities-board-cruise-ships-amid-welfare-fears-for-crew-coronavirus

 

 

[drsel]

I was about to pull the trigger and pay Carnival and Princess deposits on Cruises for April and May 2021, but now I am not sure.

I was expecting that by April 2021, the virus would be under control, but I am not sure about them going bankrupt and their future Cruises been cancelled.
And the risk of them defaulting on refunds of deposits

[Captain_Morgan]

I think the best way to describe P&O at present is they seem to be in a situation where they want to have their cake and eat it too...in one breath they want to be considered 'Britain's best cruise line' or at the very least the best vacation option for the British public, yet on the other hand they're being forced into falling down the black hole that is American-izing their fleet with bigger, more obnoxious ships which don't appeal to the majority of the British cruising public unless the price is right, and even then many would think twice i'm sure.

 

Which of course then brings the next point of loyalty which has been mentioned at times...the reality is that the majority of the cruising public is loyal to the lowest price and nothing more.  Sure they might enjoy cruising with a specific brand because they had a memorable trip or enjoyed the ports, or maybe they even feel they're given some form of preferred treatment due to their days sailed but if there were a deal to be had elsewhere and it lined up with their holiday schedule I can guarantee they'd be on it like a rat up a drain pipe. 

I remember not that many years ago we sailed on Seabourn because all of the factors lined up for us at the time and although its not now or likely to ever be our regular choice it was nice to try something different and I recall speaking with multiple other guests who outright said they only booked because there was a 'too good to lose' deal so as I say, loyalty is limited in most cases to the bottom line.

 

I think if P&O continue down the road of alienating the 'small ship' clientele they will find it increasingly more difficult to fill the mega ships week in and week out during off-peak holiday times which will fall nicely into the hands of the competition.  As has been said, you might pay more for Saga but when you factor in the value it ends up being the same if not perhaps cheaper in some cases due to the lack of added extra costs, and they will have brand new ships with a fraction of the number of guests as Iona, etc.

[terrierjohn]

7 minutes ago, Captain_Morgan said:

I think the best way to describe P&O at present is they seem to be in a situation where they want to have their cake and eat it too...in one breath they want to be considered 'Britain's best cruise line' or at the very least the best vacation option for the British public, yet on the other hand they're being forced into falling down the black hole that is American-izing their fleet with bigger, more obnoxious ships which don't appeal to the majority of the British cruising public unless the price is right, and even then many would think twice i'm sure.

 

Which of course then brings the next point of loyalty which has been mentioned at times...the reality is that the majority of the cruising public is loyal to the lowest price and nothing more.  Sure they might enjoy cruising with a specific brand because they had a memorable trip or enjoyed the ports, or maybe they even feel they're given some form of preferred treatment due to their days sailed but if there were a deal to be had elsewhere and it lined up with their holiday schedule I can guarantee they'd be on it like a rat up a drain pipe. 

I remember not that many years ago we sailed on Seabourn because all of the factors lined up for us at the time and although its not now or likely to ever be our regular choice it was nice to try something different and I recall speaking with multiple other guests who outright said they only booked because there was a 'too good to lose' deal so as I say, loyalty is limited in most cases to the bottom line.

 

I think if P&O continue down the road of alienating the 'small ship' clientele they will find it increasingly more difficult to fill the mega ships week in and week out during off-peak holiday times which will fall nicely into the hands of the competition.  As has been said, you might pay more for Saga but when you factor in the value it ends up being the same if not perhaps cheaper in some cases due to the lack of added extra costs, and they will have brand new ships with a fraction of the number of guests as Iona, etc.

Your points are valid from your perspective, but since P&O manage to fill the big ships it's clearly not a universal view.  We have a special requirement, we need an accessible cabin, so the newer bigger ships ideally fit our cruising template.  Saga sounds nice but they don't seem to have many accessible cabins, and because my wife cannot board a normal coach the included tours would be pointless.

I cannot see Carnival allowing P&O to spend what would be needed to bring Aurora and Ardadia up to a modern standard, the return just would not be there.  We actually took our first trip on Aurora last Spring, not long after an extensive refit, the result in our opinion was that it was still an old ship and new carpets and furnishings only partly hid the tired and worn out feel of the ship.

I expect Gala 2 will go ahead, but will be delayed, and the 3 smaller ships will gradually be phased out over the next 4 or 5 years.  There are IMO enough P&O stalwarts who are happy enough with big ships to enable P&O to continue running full, even outside peak season, and possibly Gala 2 will be tweaked to offer families a little of the excitement that RCI, NCL and Carnival ships provide, giving P&O some extra younger clientele for the future. 

It would be unwise to write them off just yet.

[Captain_Morgan]

13 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Your points are valid from your perspective, but since P&O manage to fill the big ships it's clearly not a universal view.  We have a special requirement, we need an accessible cabin, so the newer bigger ships ideally fit our cruising template.  Saga sounds nice but they don't seem to have many accessible cabins, and because my wife cannot board a normal coach the included tours would be pointless.

I cannot see Carnival allowing P&O to spend what would be needed to bring Aurora and Ardadia up to a modern standard, the return just would not be there.  We actually took our first trip on Aurora last Spring, not long after an extensive refit, the result in our opinion was that it was still an old ship and new carpets and furnishings only partly hid the tired and worn out feel of the ship.

I expect Gala 2 will go ahead, but will be delayed, and the 3 smaller ships will gradually be phased out over the next 4 or 5 years.  There are IMO enough P&O stalwarts who are happy enough with big ships to enable P&O to continue running full, even outside peak season, and possibly Gala 2 will be tweaked to offer families a little of the excitement that RCI, NCL and Carnival ships provide, giving P&O some extra younger clientele for the future. 

It would be unwise to write them off just yet.

 

Definitely not writing anything off, just saying that they run the risk of alienating a large portion of their clientele in favor of trying to woo younger and comparitively un-seasoned cruisers to the market.

 

I agree as well that an old ship won't change despite new carpet and furnishings...as they, you can put lipstick on a pig but it will always be a pig!  By the same rationale, large ships are less likely to do longer more dynamic cruises because it would be cost prohibitive to keep such a large asset away from 'home' for the amount of time required to do a long voyage when it could be used on a 'bus route' of 7-14 days instead.

 

Also, your estimate of the smaller ships being phased out over the coming 4-5 years I think is liberal thinking at best as i wouldn't be surprised if 2 of the 3 weren't axed inside the next 6-9 months if not put into 'cold storage' with a skeleton crew keeping the lights on.

[grapau27]

1 hour ago, Captain_Morgan said:

I think the best way to describe P&O at present is they seem to be in a situation where they want to have their cake and eat it too...in one breath they want to be considered 'Britain's best cruise line' or at the very least the best vacation option for the British public, yet on the other hand they're being forced into falling down the black hole that is American-izing their fleet with bigger, more obnoxious ships which don't appeal to the majority of the British cruising public unless the price is right, and even then many would think twice i'm sure.

 

Which of course then brings the next point of loyalty which has been mentioned at times...the reality is that the majority of the cruising public is loyal to the lowest price and nothing more.  Sure they might enjoy cruising with a specific brand because they had a memorable trip or enjoyed the ports, or maybe they even feel they're given some form of preferred treatment due to their days sailed but if there were a deal to be had elsewhere and it lined up with their holiday schedule I can guarantee they'd be on it like a rat up a drain pipe. 

I remember not that many years ago we sailed on Seabourn because all of the factors lined up for us at the time and although its not now or likely to ever be our regular choice it was nice to try something different and I recall speaking with multiple other guests who outright said they only booked because there was a 'too good to lose' deal so as I say, loyalty is limited in most cases to the bottom line.

 

I think if P&O continue down the road of alienating the 'small ship' clientele they will find it increasingly more difficult to fill the mega ships week in and week out during off-peak holiday times which will fall nicely into the hands of the competition.  As has been said, you might pay more for Saga but when you factor in the value it ends up being the same if not perhaps cheaper in some cases due to the lack of added extra costs, and they will have brand new ships with a fraction of the number of guests as Iona, etc.

Royal Caribbean cruise line have a fantastic loyalty program to keep their regulars loyal but P&O loyalty program is poor so they leave themselves open to competition special offers.

[No pager thank you]

7 minutes ago, grapau27 said:

Royal Caribbean cruise line have a fantastic loyalty program to keep their regulars loyal but P&O loyalty program is poor so they leave themselves open to competition special offers.

Quite agree. 

 

With P&O, on average you need to have 28 weeks on board, to get just 10% off in the shops/bar bill - with a pin badge to remind you of your good fortune in receiving this.  Maybe the odd glass of standard bubbly too - about it.

 

The reason why they get away with this, is partly price, but partly because there is a more "brand" (instead of product) loyalty than most when it comes to P&O.

[ToxM]

I think big ships simply aren’t going to be viable for the next couple of years. 

 

If I was a canny planner at P&O I would be drawling the families in with the big ships, then offering multiple options of facilities across multiple ships for multiple types of holidays, so people could “level up” their experience as they become more experienced with cruising: 

 

Families

Families Premium

Adults Only

Adults Only Premium/Boutique

 

They really have to pull their finger out and offer something a bit more premium. 

 

My next trip with P&O is in a suite, primarily to see if my husband can cope with P&O after enjoying Oceania so much. The reality is we want to do a world cruise, but he doesn’t want to fly. I don’t want the formality of Cunard but I don’t want to be stuck in a poky cabin for 4 months either. I’d happily be stuck in a poky cabin for 6 months on Oceania’s world cruise because although it is more expensive their perks are excellent and it would be hard to replicate those perks on a world cruise on P&O. 

 

They need to up their suite game and they need to understand that the British cruiser isn’t all about pile it high sell it cheap, especially in the forthcoming post (Fingers crossed) Covid landscape. 

[Britboys]

15 hours ago, jeanlyon said:

I just looked at a 2022 cruise with Fred Olsen.  25  nights on Braemar Greece, Corinth Canal etc.  £4999 for an inside cabin!!  Do me a favour.

That sort of price is, I think, exceptional for Fred Olsen, in that most of their cruises are less than that. I suspect that it is already heavily booked, with the Corinth Canal being a big draw as so few ships can sail it. I have paid £120 per person per day for a cruise on Boudicca next year in an outside cabin, with included gratuities and £75 per person obc.

[grapau27]

14 minutes ago, No pager thank you said:

Quite agree. 

 

With P&O, on average you need to have 28 weeks on board, to get just 10% off in the shops/bar bill - with a pin badge to remind you of your good fortune in receiving this.  Maybe the odd glass of standard bubbly too - about it.

 

The reason why they get away with this, is partly price, but partly because there is a more "brand" (instead of product) loyalty than most when it comes to P&O.

Any P&O obc has to be used up first before discounts are activated too.

[jeanlyon]

17 minutes ago, Britboys said:

That sort of price is, I think, exceptional for Fred Olsen, in that most of their cruises are less than that. I suspect that it is already heavily booked, with the Corinth Canal being a big draw as so few ships can sail it. I have paid £120 per person per day for a cruise on Boudicca next year in an outside cabin, with included gratuities and £75 per person obc.

Hi Andrew, I looked at some other cruises on Fred and they are all way more expensive than P&O

[Son of Anarchy]

48 minutes ago, grapau27 said:

Royal Caribbean cruise line have a fantastic loyalty program to keep their regulars loyal but P&O loyalty program is poor so they leave themselves open to competition special offers.

 

Peninsula Club offerings are pretty measly.  Additional to what is already out there, they could do with offering at the least a bit of internet access - useful for sea days.

 

Even the Baltic/Ligurian lunch isn't as exclusive as it used to be (yep, bof!).  The last two cruises the Baltic/Ligurian lunch had to be split over 2 days there were so many on board!

 

We don't choose PandO for the loyalty scheme, who would?  But they certainly could do with improving it.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Son of Anarchy

[jeanlyon]

i have never bothered with Caribbean lunch or the Peninsular parties.  Don't want all that food at lunchtime and now that the party is at 7.45, we eat around 8 and want to have a drink at 7 normally.  Perks don't actually bother me.  Quite happy with my 10% discount on drinks.

[majortom10]

It is not a new thing that P&O trying to get new younger clientele. We were chatting years ago before Ventura was launched on Arcadia to a senior manager on the ship and he said then the plans were to attract younger people because they spend more on the ships. He said the "traditional" P&O cruises of many years i.e. pre Oriana and Canberra days were used to having to pay for nothing on the ship except for alcohol and many didnt drink so were getting off the ship with a zero bill. When we first started cruising in 1997 there were no speciality restaurants or coffee shops, if you wanted a coffee or tea between meals you wnet to the buffet which was free. In our early days of cruising we chatted to many people who said there plans were to not spend anything at all on the ship.

[Britboys]

Just been catching up on this thread and thought I'd share my thoughts.

If P&O do dispose of a ship in the near future, my money would be on Oceana as she is less flexible than Aurora. As has been said by others, Oceana was built solely for short cruises in warm weather. Aurora is still used for long/warm weather as she has her covered pool and decent storage space in the cabins.

 

Personally, I don't think there is any chance Carnival Corp will be interested in buying any of the CMV ships should they cease to operate. The small ship, mid-market cruise operation is very much a niche market. Smaller/older ships are generally much more expensive to operate - hence Fred Olsen's prices going up. I think Carnival Corp are really only interested in serving the mass market on large ships or the luxury, small ship market. CMV is also a slightly unusual set-up in that CMV operate the cruises but the ships are leased from Global Cruise Lines Ltd. IIRC, Global also employ many of the staff and are based in Greece.

 

Iona/Gala 2 to do Dubai in winter and Canaries in Summer? Quite possible. She could overnight in Dubai so flights could operate over 2 days. In the Canaries, they could use more than one island as a starting point to spread the flight-load.

[Britboys]

18 minutes ago, jeanlyon said:

Hi Andrew, I looked at some other cruises on Fred and they are all way more expensive than P&O

Indeed Jean - but as I have just said in my post above, smaller/older ships are more expensive to operate and as Fred's ships only carry between around 900 to 1300 pax, they are not going to be as cheap as P&O - especially as P&O are generally lowering the standards gradually.

I will find out next year (hopefully) but Fred Olsen also seem to spend a lot more upgrading and refurbishing their fleet than P&O do these days.

Small-ship cruising is very much a niche and as such, I expect it to be more expensive. Whilst I am still very happy at present to sail on Aurora and Arcadia, I am increasingly attracted to Fred Olsen and, if they survive, CMV.