Carnival to Dump Six Ships

[molecrochip]

1 minute ago, terrierjohn said:

Why would Carnival want to buy CMV when they are currently considering selling off 6 of their own ships. What might be more sensible is to try to recover some of the ships they sold to CMV and where they are still awaiting  final payment.

Carnival are disposing if ships that will cost more to lay up / maintain / bring back & operate than they believe is financially viable. Some were already due to leave anyhow but are now going quicker.

Carnival are exiting ships they don’t want. With all the deliveries on the books, this is still a net increase in worldwide cross-brand fleet.

 

People are loyal. Buy CMV, buy another chunk of loyal customers.

[besberry]

20 hours ago, majortom10 said:

I think Oceana's future looked bleak even before Coronavirus as that the effect she was built and designed for 7nt Carribean cruises and with Iona being built it was only a matter of time P&O reduced their fleet and think she would be the favourite to go.

 

A member of the entertainment team told me in 2013 that P&O only wanted 7 ships in the fleet and that when Britannia joined one of the others would be for the chop.  That ship was of course Adonia.  So did Oriana make way for Iona?  When Gala2 arrives then presumably another ship is heading for the exit.  Of course non of this takes into account our good old friend COVID-19.

[No pager thank you]

1 hour ago, molecrochip said:

 

Its also worth noting that Royal Caribbean, Norwegian, Saga, Thomson (Marella), MSC and Fred all serve the UK market to different degrees. Its unlikely that the acquisition would be seen as abstracting custom from the other brands, or creating a market monopoly over the offering.

 

I do agree that Fred may be interested at the lower end.

Assuming that the market remains that diverse with any unrelated mergers and acquisitions then yes, should see off the CMA.

 

More of a philosophical point, but I see in the design of the new ships an unwillingness to go head first for the family market if I'm honest, and it's unclear if any brand repositioning would be significant enough.  It's almost as if with the newer ships, P&O assumes that enough "traditionalists" and "new age" cruisers will compromise, such that there is seen to be something for everyone; risky in the long term perhaps?

 

I should say that I don't come at this from the perspective that the bigger the ship, the bigger the monster, or the children should preferably not be seen and most definitely not heard mentality.

 

However, if I look at Royal Caribbean as a higher cost alternative or Marella as a lower/ equivalent cost alternative, then to attract this market P&O (Carnival) needs to make a more definitive choice, it is stuck in between. 

 

Five questions stand out:

 

1) Do they commit fully and equip a new P&O vessel with family friendly amenities like water parks, climbing walls, dodgem cars, Escape Rooms, High tech gaming and Arcades - and take a really hard look at the evening shows and Entertainment teams?  You can get all of these elsewhere, and British service.

 

2) Do they get over the fact that most of the British family cruising market won't pay £40 pppd for alcohol and won't tolerate 20% tips on drinks and £15 pd tips either?  Heaven forbid have less than three pages of rules for the AI package?

 

3) Do they create a more exciting, family orientated shore excursion programme?

 

4) Does the speciality dining need to go more contemporary?

 

5) Are they prepared to ditch the jewellery and art auctions; exclusively higher end shopping; card rooms; classical music recitals; dance classes; guest speakers; club dining etiquettes etc?  Some, but not all "new age" cruisers just aren't interested, fly cruise or no fly cruise?

 

At the moment, without criticising the current product, the answer appears to be, in the main no, or very slow reluctant steps in the "new age" direction.  They need to either decide no or yes more clearly.

 

Otherwise I just don't think that in the long term Carnival will have an easy time playing both decks of cards under the P&O umbrella - having increasingly larger ships, without at least matching the family orientated offer of a rivals accessible at a similar pricing point.  

[molecrochip]

1 hour ago, Captain_Morgan said:

 

Ironic to think that because P&O's market wasn't growing fast enough that instead of getting a 3400 passenger ship they get a 5000 passenger ship?!?  Surely it would have made more sense to delay the introduction of a second Royal class ship for P&O until 2020, send what we now know to be Iona to Aida or Costa given they've already got one of those class and continue to monitor the trends.

These things are decided so far in advance...

 

The decision on Britannia 2 was likely taken before Britannia launched. The decision on Iona was taken in early 2016. It’s about 4 years from deciding to design and build to maiden cruise with steel cutting starting half way through that process. Port calls are also booked about 3-4 years out.

[grapau27]

2 hours ago, jeanlyon said:

If Aurora goes, then that would be it for us.  No more cruising, unless there is something special with Fred O.

Maybe Fred Olsen might buy Aurora and Oceana and dispose 1 or 2 of their small ships.

Oceana is in Newcastle which is a homeport of Fred Olsen.

[SeaJane]

1 hour ago, Adawn47 said:

Absolutely agree with you. When the small ships leave , then unfortunately so do we.

Avril  

Same for us. If P&O get rid of Aurora and Arcadia we shall look at other cruise lines.

[molecrochip]

15 minutes ago, No pager thank you said:

Assuming that the market remains that diverse with any unrelated mergers and acquisitions then yes, should see off the CMA.

 

More of a philosophical point, but I see in the design of the new ships an unwillingness to go head first for the family market if I'm honest, and it's unclear if any brand repositioning would be significant enough.  It's almost as if with the newer ships, P&O assumes that enough "traditionalists" and "new age" cruisers will compromise, such that there is seen to be something for everyone; risky in the long term perhaps?

 

I should say that I don't come at this from the perspective that the bigger the ship, the bigger the monster, or the children should preferably not be seen and most definitely not heard mentality.

 

However, if I look at Royal Caribbean as a higher cost alternative or Marella as a lower/ equivalent cost alternative, then to attract this market P&O (Carnival) needs to make a more definitive choice, it is stuck in between. 

 

Five questions stand out:

 

1) Do they commit fully and equip a new P&O vessel with family friendly amenities like water parks, climbing walls, dodgem cars, Escape Rooms, High tech gaming and Arcades - and take a really hard look at the evening shows and Entertainment teams?  You can get all of these elsewhere, and British service.

 

2) Do they get over the fact that most of the British family cruising market won't pay £40 pppd for alcohol and won't tolerate 20% tips on drinks and £15 pd tips either?  Heaven forbid have less than three pages of rules for the AI package?

 

3) Do they create a more exciting, family orientated shore excursion programme?

 

4) Does the speciality dining need to go more contemporary?

 

5) Are they prepared to ditch the jewellery and art auctions; exclusively higher end shopping; card rooms; classical music recitals; dance classes; guest speakers; club dining etiquettes etc?  Some, but not all "new age" cruisers just aren't interested, fly cruise or no fly cruise?

 

At the moment, without criticising the current product, the answer appears to be, in the main no, or very slow reluctant steps in the "new age" direction.  They need to either decide no or yes more clearly.

 

Otherwise I just don't think that in the long term Carnival will have an easy time playing both decks of cards under the P&O umbrella - having increasingly larger ships, without at least matching the family orientated offer of a rivals accessible at a similar pricing point.  

P&O can't make a one-off shift as they rely on the 'traditionalists' to fill up the ships in core term-time. But with each new book launch and each fleet change, they are slowly maneuvering their proposition.

 

My thoughts:

1) I think some of these improvements have happened - the more modern shows with digital backgrounds and the acrobatic shows due to be on Iona. The improved cinema offering, teen hang-out and 710 bar on Iona also stick out as more family focused. OK - they have not gone waterpark, climbing walls etc because they take a lot of cruise ship real estate and are often subject to extra fees. Iona has their biggest kids water park ever. Given that Gala 2 is intended for sunshine destinations only, it wont surprise me to see it have a bigger water park on top.

2) Drinks package is always optional and they've already made the jump re daily tips and have never had tips on drinks in line with UK land based bars.

3) If you look at Iona, and the offerings on board school holiday cruises this is increasingly happening.

4) On Iona this is happening. Look at the Keel & Cow, The Quays with its Asian Fusion, Snowflake Gelato etc. First P&O rolled out the Glasshouse, then the Epicurean was rolled out as more modern alternatives. Sindhu has been refocused also. Not forgetting the beach-house having taken over some more traditional italian dining spots across the fleet.

5) Card rooms, classical music recitals, guest speakers, club dining are diminishing with each new large ship. Not sure that Iona will have any of these although multi-purposes spaces can still be used for playing cards and classical music will still get an airing in the crows nest.

 

 

[tring]

3 hours ago, Manx buoy said:

My money is on Oceana going. It doesn’t look like any of them will be going in CMVs direction though all ships impounded this morning by the MCA due to crew welfare concerns and apparently an emergency loan deal fell through yesterday

 

Can I ask where you saw this information about CMV.  I have searched the net and news outlets and cannot find anything about ship's being impounded today.  I am aware the company were refused a Government backed loan from Barclays and were looking for other forms of funding as has been reported a couple of days ago. 

 

[Son of Anarchy]

8 minutes ago, tring said:

 

Can I ask where you saw this information about CMV.  I have searched the net and news outlets and cannot find anything about ship's being impounded today.  I am aware the company were refused a Government backed loan from Barclays and were looking for other forms of funding as has been reported a couple of days ago. 

 

I had a trawl for info as well and couldn't find anything either.

[tring]

19 minutes ago, Son of Anarchy said:

I had a trawl for info as well and couldn't find anything either.

 

Someone found this, but seems to be largely about crew stuck on board and not able to get home, which we know is world wide because of border closures:-   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/19/uk-port-authorities-board-cruise-ships-amid-welfare-fears-for-crew-coronavirus

 

Astoria another matter as the intention is to send her to LIsbon, to return to her owners, so yes the crew on her would not have any easy way to get home from there either, so not sure what would happen - some othercrew were transferred from Astoria to another ship in Tilbury earlier this week.  Apparently some Myanmar crew have now left the ships on their way home after action by their government to let them return.  I knew someone had died of a heart attack and stress of being stuck on the ship would not have helped, but otherwise I do not know if anything had triggered it.  I think some CMV ships came back late from far flung places so they had perhaps missed a window when they would have been able to send the crew home before borders closed. 

 

I am sure CMV would have preferred to send most crew home long ago. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by tring

[molecrochip]

8 minutes ago, tring said:

 

Someone found this, but seems to be largely about crew stuck on board and not able to get home, which we know is world wide because of border closures:-   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/19/uk-port-authorities-board-cruise-ships-amid-welfare-fears-for-crew-coronavirus

 

Astoria another matter as the intention is to send her to LIsbon, to return to her owners, so yes the crew on her would not have any easy way to get home from there either, so not sure what would happen - some othercrew were transferred from Astoria to another ship in Tilbury earlier this week.  Apparently some Myanmar crew have now left the ships on their way home after action by their government to let them return.  I knew someone had died of a heart attack and stress of being stuck on the ship would not have helped, but otherwise I do not know if anything had triggered it.  I think some CMV ships came back late from far flung places so they had perhaps missed a window when they would have been able to send the crew home before borders closed. 

 

I am sure CMV would have preferred to send most crew home long ago. 

I don't wish to post a link but its out there if you look on social media. Its alleged that the crew have not been treated or looked after particularly well. Some times being a minnow in an industry can provide flexibility and be an advantage but in this case, its worked the other way as there were not the worldwide support systems in place to support the crew that the big boys had - and they've not had it easy with all the restrictions.

 

India has been a particular hardship as they've not allowed repatriation cruises to dock or non-Indian airlines to fly home crew on direct flights. The only long-haul Indian airline with authority to provide passenger services in Europe is state owned Air India and capacity is tight.

[tring]

24 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

I don't wish to post a link but its out there if you look on social media. Its alleged that the crew have not been treated or looked after particularly well. Some times being a minnow in an industry can provide flexibility and be an advantage but in this case, its worked the other way as there were not the worldwide support systems in place to support the crew that the big boys had - and they've not had it easy with all the restrictions.

 

India has been a particular hardship as they've not allowed repatriation cruises to dock or non-Indian airlines to fly home crew on direct flights. The only long-haul Indian airline with authority to provide passenger services in Europe is state owned Air India and capacity is tight.

 

Thanks, so some substance in it, which is sad, but as I thought other bits about the problems of getting staff back.  I do feel for all the crew concerned across the world and surprised more has not hit the news.  I know Fred has still got his Indian crew on board, but they are not the majority for him.

 

It took quite an effort to get Brits back home and would expect that to be more straight forward.

 

[jeanlyon]

I just looked at a 2022 cruise with Fred Olsen.  25  nights on Braemar Greece, Corinth Canal etc.  £4999 for an inside cabin!!  Do me a favour.

[Eddie99]

We did a ship’s tour on one of the FO ships @ Southampton last summer.

😳

I went with an open mind but ... really???

Those prices?  For that?

 

Each to his own but it would need to be a very special itinerary (and I’ll admit they do some) to tempt me

[jeanlyon]

Yes agree.  We have done 4 cruises with Fred, but not at those prickes.  One on Braemar which I enjoyed down to Dakar in Senegal, the Gambia and quite a few others.  It was a really good cruise.  Nowhere near that price.  Also Balmoral first sector of a Worldie out to Dubai, again, good cruise and cheap.  But that was a while ago and since then their prices have been ridiculous.

[Captain_Morgan]

For all the talk of P&O morphing into RCCL or NCL with the water slides, rock climbing walls, etc. there is a reason that the industry has evolved into a niche travel option, and quite simply that is because if you want all the bells and whistles you can find it on a specific brand or a specific ship.  I really dislike the idea of larger and larger ships all being expected to follow the trend of the tacky American brands with giant television screens blasting out of date action movies and repeated children's animated films throughout the day, or mile long queues for burgers and ice cream on deck, which then get deposited around the ship on over-sized platters.

Again, if you want the holiday camp atmosphere at sea there are plenty of options for that, but if you want a grown-up or adult oriented holiday at sea you should be able to get that as well, even on the scale of Iona despite the likes of Arcadia and Aurora being more synonymous with that atmosphere.  Sadly however, the model of bigger and bigger ships is to fill them to capacity which means lower comparable cost per person in the hopes that translates into onboard spend (i.e. drinks packages, specialty dining, souvenirs, etc) and to turn them around on shorter (7 day) trips and then rinse, wash, repeat which will inevitably dilute the experience IMO.

[Manx buoy]

3 hours ago, tring said:

 

Can I ask where you saw this information about CMV.  I have searched the net and news outlets and cannot find anything about ship's being impounded today.  I am aware the company were refused a Government backed loan from Barclays and were looking for other forms of funding as has been reported a couple of days ago. 

 

MCA Twitter feed with link to the website

[No pager thank you]

9 minutes ago, Captain_Morgan said:

I really dislike the idea of larger and larger ships all being expected to follow the trend of the tacky American brands with giant television screens blasting out of date action movies and repeated children's animated films throughout the day, or mile long queues for burgers and ice cream on deck, which then get deposited around the ship on over-sized platters.

Again, if you want the holiday camp atmosphere at sea there are plenty of options for that, but if you want a grown-up or adult oriented holiday at sea you should be able to get that as well, 

The crux of the issue is that P&O wants of course to attract more families to their Cruises.  We can either like that or lump it, but that is their strategy.

 

The question is, if you are a family with younger to teenage children, and you are attracted to the "holiday camp style cruise," then why would you choose P&O versus a line like Marella, or, depending on your budget NCL or RC etc?  

 

My contention is the P&O brand cannot continue to serve both these groups forever - what each wants from a holiday is different.  Each has money to spend, each wants their own holiday.

 

Therefore, what would be wrong with Gala 2 being set up in a holiday camp way, if Aurora and Arcadia stay traditional?

 

Theoretically, the "traditionalist" / smaller ship, upbrand British market has other options than P&O too - so it's not really that unique.  Some people in this group won't go on a 5,000 pax ship, even if it is set up in that way?

 

You might as well create very obvious splits in the brand, as opposed to attempting the halfway house, and risk not meeting fully the explanation of either client group?  There is a risk otherwise that Iona will get a lot of the same mixed feedback that Britannia did.

[jeanlyon]

True.  We tried Azura and hated it, so if Aurora and Arcadia go, we will holiday elsewhere.

[No pager thank you]

The disappointing part of Carnival's strategy is that it does not appear to be considering commissioning a new smaller vessel in the next five years to cater properly for its current / actual, as well as it's targeted market.

 

Yes it might refurb / reacquire one from CMV perhaps, but if the next two new ships were:

 

Gala 2 and

New Oriana, say 1500-2000 pax

 

Then I would imagine that, over time, traditional cruisers would be more forgiving of the loss of Adonia, Oriana, and possibly Oceana etc.

 

The problem, if I may say so, is that the traditional market are perceived to be more loyal - just look how badly some customers are being treated at the moment and yet many, without question, will still only go with P&O.  This is not criticising loyalty, far from it, it can just be taken for granted, hence the slow push towards "holiday camp"...

[jeanlyon]

I don't think they want loyal, traditional customers.  They just want to fill bigger and bigger ships.

[majortom10]

6 minutes ago, jeanlyon said:

I don't think they want loyal, traditional customers.  They just want to fill bigger and bigger ships.

Correct because that is where the profit is that is why majority if not all mass market cruise lines are making ships bigger and bigger. There is no sentiment in business and top executives at Carnival all they are interested in is profits whatever the brand is  under their umbrella.

[jeanlyon]

Totally agree.

[Manx buoy]

1 hour ago, Manx buoy said:

MCA Twitter feed with link to the website

 

4 hours ago, tring said:

 

Can I ask where you saw this information about CMV.  I have searched the net and news outlets and cannot find anything about ship's being impounded today.  I am aware the company were refused a Government backed loan from Barclays and were looking for other forms of funding as has been reported a couple of days ago. 

 

Just updated 5/6 ships detained Magellan the odd one out

[terrierjohn]

7 minutes ago, No pager thank you said:

The disappointing part of Carnival's strategy is that it does not appear to be considering commissioning a new smaller vessel in the next five years to cater properly for its current / actual, as well as it's targeted market.

 

Yes it might refurb / reacquire one from CMV perhaps, but if the next two new ships were:

 

Gala 2 and

New Oriana, say 1500-2000 pax

 

Then I would imagine that, over time, traditional cruisers would be more forgiving of the loss of Adonia, Oriana, and possibly Oceana etc.

 

The problem, if I may say so, is that the traditional market are perceived to be more loyal - just look how badly some customers are being treated at the moment and yet many, without question, will still only go with P&O.  This is not criticising loyalty, far from it, it can just be taken for granted, hence the slow push towards "holiday camp"...

I doubt that P&O will be permitted to buy a new 2000 passenger ship by Carnival, unless the covid pandemic has a marked effect on cruising preferences. The latest HAL Pinnacle class ships, although still a very similar platform to the old Vista class, like Arcadia, have now grown to take 3000+ passengers.

Similarly I doubt Carnival would want to take an older ship and refit it to make it feel new, which leaves P&O with the bigger ships once Aurora and Arcadia are retired.

So UK passengers wanting the small ship feel will need to look at Azamara or Oceania for fly cruises or the new Saga ships for UK round trip cruises, and they all have much higher fares than even Aurora and Arcadia. Or they will have to accept Fred's old ladies, or hope CMV survive.