Healthy Sail Panel

[rkacruiser]

20 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I guess over 35 years in government health care (and health care policy) has made me naïve and skeptical.   If anyone on my staff had delivered, to me, such a document I would have sent them back to the "drawing board."  Much in this document makes little sense

 

Naive?  No.  Skeptical and cynical?  Yes.  That's an advantage that those of us who are Seniors have.  Is it "wisdom" that we have acquired over the years because of what we have learned and experienced?  It is.  Whether those of us who are junior in years think so or not.  

 

Your post was well written and said what needs to be said.  

 

The issues revolving around this pandemic have become so politicized on so many levels.  

 

Will the CLIA best represent my interests for cruising again?  Will the CDC and/or the Ohio Department of Health provide me with the correct information to allow me to dine in a restaurant again?  Without changing such information the next day?  

 

I have NO confidence regardless of the "expert" information that I am learning.  Only:  wear the darn mask, wash your hands regularly, and practice social distancing.  And, for me, remain in the "bubble" that I have safely ensconced myself within thus far successfully.  

[Hlitner]

1 minute ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Naive?  No.  Skeptical and cynical?  Yes.  That's an advantage that those of us who are Seniors have.  Is it "wisdom" that we have acquired over the years because of what we have learned and experienced?  It is.  Whether those of us who are junior in years think so or not.  

 

Your post was well written and said what needs to be said.  

 

The issues revolving around this pandemic have become so politicized on so many levels.  

 

Will the CLIA best represent my interests for cruising again?  Will the CDC and/or the Ohio Department of Health provide me with the correct information to allow me to dine in a restaurant again?  Without changing such information the next day?  

 

I have NO confidence regardless of the "expert" information that I am learning.  Only:  wear the darn mask, wash your hands regularly, and practice social distancing.  And, for me, remain in the "bubble" that I have safely ensconced myself within thus far successfully.  

LOL you and I are in the same ballpark when it comes to analyzing information/disinformation we are getting from "trusted" entities.  My own physician and I actually had a laugh over this issue when I visited his office this morning.  For the record I am also a senior :).  We are supposed to have gained wisdom from the years....but I am not sure that any of us were prepared for something like COVID.

 

Hank

[rkacruiser]

8 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

but I am not sure that any of us were prepared for something like COVID.

 

If anyone would have told me when I returned home in late January, that "you have just enjoyed your last cruises", I would have thought they were smoking something that is still illegal in the state of Ohio.  

 

With each passing day and the more I learn, the more certain I become:  my cruising days are over.  And, I fear, even my traveling days by whatever means have become more risky than I may choose to do.     

[iancal]

We feel confident that we will feel safe resuming international travel well before we resume cruising.

 

Nonsense from the CLIA Healthy Sail Panel gives us even less confidence in cruising.

Edited September 22, 2020 by iancal

[idiebabe]

I watched an interesting Live from the Port Canaveral Commission Meeting.  To sum it up:

 

They are hoping to have Cruises going before the end of the Year.  As everyone knows RCL & NCL submitted their Healthy Sail and Carnival Corp. used outside Independent Experts and submitted theirs to the CDC and all are waiting until a Go Ahead and, hopefully, it will come next week.  Senators Rubio and Scott have proposed the Set Sail Safely Act and formed a Maritime Task Force and all including the Cruise Lines are working with Government, Health, Local Officials.  

 

Yes, sailing at first will be different and some won't Sail until things go back to "Normal" but many are anxious to return and will accept it.  Some Protocols that will definitely be implemented:

1. Contactless Boarding.  He mentioned No Ticket Agents. 
2. If a Passenger is given a Window of a time to Board, for example, 10 a.m. - 10:20 a.m. and is not there at that time, they will not be allowed to Board.  This is to ensure Social Distancing and the Testing completed and keep the Boarding Process smooth and efficient.
3. Ventilation Strategies, etc. put in place.
4. Mask required as well as Social Distancing.
5. 50 - 70% Capacity. 
6. Ship Excursions Only.
7. There will also be Protocols in place with regards to Debarking.

Most of this everyone knew but wanted  to share what happened today at the PC Commission Hearing.   

[chengkp75]

58 minutes ago, idiebabe said:

They are hoping to have Cruises going before the end of the Year.  As everyone knows RCL & NCL submitted their Healthy Sail and Carnival Corp. used outside Independent Experts and submitted theirs to the CDC and all are waiting until a Go Ahead and, hopefully, it will come next week. 

If what RCI and NCL submitted was the document from the Healthy Sail committee, then it is a long way from getting a "go ahead".  That is not an action plan, that is an advisory board's recommendation.  What the CDC is looking for are concrete, specific, protocols and procedures, with contracted vendors of health care, transportation, and housing, with those contractor's contact information and the specifics of the contracts.  They want, specific plans and protocols for onboard ship operations, like what exactly nearly every crew member's duties are regarding covid prevention, containment, and remediation.  Wherever the Healthy Sail report says "the cruise lines should", there needs to be specific duties, responsibilities, preventative actions, remediation actions, etc, etc.  This is not an action or response plan.

[0bnxshs]

CLIA's submitting protocols for a return to cruising found here:

 

https://cruising.org/en/news-and-research/press-room/2020/september/clia-and-its-cruise-line-members-announce-mandatory-core-elements-of-health-protocols

[crusinbanjo]

25 minutes ago, 0bnxshs said:

CLIA's submitting protocols for a return to cruising found here:

 

https://cruising.org/en/news-and-research/press-room/2020/september/clia-and-its-cruise-line-members-announce-mandatory-core-elements-of-health-protocols

I looked at this, the protocols being proposed are non starters for Mrs Banjo and myself.  These may help the cruise lines get up and running and if some want to endure the restrictions, more power to them.  If these protocols are temporary, then we will wait until they are no longer needed, if they become permanent, then sadly our cruising days would be over.  The cruise experience, given the restrictions, would no longer be what we enjoy.  We Have been cruising for more than 30 years, but given the magnitude of proposed changes, would need to find other options.

[chengkp75]

34 minutes ago, 0bnxshs said:

CLIA's submitting protocols for a return to cruising found here:

 

https://cruising.org/en/news-and-research/press-room/2020/september/clia-and-its-cruise-line-members-announce-mandatory-core-elements-of-health-protocols

CLIA is submitting these as part of the "request for information", and so they are not action plans, they are recommendations that will be reviewed by CDC as part of its "request for information", so they are likely still a long way from restarting cruises from the US.

[vedettes1]

Since one cannot smoke with a mask on, I wonder if there will still be a smoking area on deck when cruising resumes.

[SightCRR]

Once the cruising starts back up cruisers will be like pilots. There will be old cruisers, there will be bold cruisers but there will be no old, bold cruisers. We will be cruisers in the past. 

sightcrr

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, vedettes1 said:

Since one cannot smoke with a mask on, I wonder if there will still be a smoking area on deck when cruising resumes.

Or in the casinos?

[RocketMan275]

These are the Guiding Principles of the Set Sail Panel:

 

Preservation of human life;

Preventing the further introduction, transmission, and spread of COVID-19 into and throughout the United States; 

Preserving the public health and other critical resources of federal, state, and local governments;

Preserving hospital, healthcare, and emergency response resources within the United States;

Maintaining the safety of shipping and harbor conditions, including safety of personnel.

 

What's missing?

 

Providing an enjoyable cruise.

[idiebabe]

On 9/23/2020 at 3:29 PM, chengkp75 said:

If what RCI and NCL submitted was the document from the Healthy Sail committee, then it is a long way from getting a "go ahead".  That is not an action plan, that is an advisory board's recommendation.  What the CDC is looking for are concrete, specific, protocols and procedures, with contracted vendors of health care, transportation, and housing, with those contractor's contact information and the specifics of the contracts.  They want, specific plans and protocols for onboard ship operations, like what exactly nearly every crew member's duties are regarding covid prevention, containment, and remediation.  Wherever the Healthy Sail report says "the cruise lines should", there needs to be specific duties, responsibilities, preventative actions, remediation actions, etc, etc.  This is not an action or response plan.

 

Do you know that the Cruise Lines haven't submitted an Action and Response Plan for the Protocols they have outlined?  I don't really know what the process is of dealing with the CDC. I know the Cruise Lines have been meeting and holding Roundtables with many Government Agencies who have written letters on their behalf urging the CDC to give the "green" light.  Wouldn't it help in getting that "green" light if an Action and Response Plan was submitted now especially since they would like to resume Operations in the next 45 - 60 days?  If the CDC wants more info or something changed, they could go back to them on those issues.  Appreciate your insight!

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, idiebabe said:

 

Do you know that the Cruise Lines haven't submitted an Action and Response Plan for the Protocols they have outlined?  I don't really know what the process is of dealing with the CDC. I know the Cruise Lines have been meeting and holding Roundtables with many Government Agencies who have written letters on their behalf urging the CDC to give the "green" light.  Wouldn't it help in getting that "green" light if an Action and Response Plan was submitted now especially since they would like to resume Operations in the next 45 - 60 days?  If the CDC wants more info or something changed, they could go back to them on those issues.  Appreciate your insight!

This is not just about the CDC although they are vital if cruising is to involve US Ports.   The cruise lines also need to satisfy the requirements of each and every port that the ship wants to visit.  This is a huge problem since there are very few ports/countries that have said they will accept cruise ships from the USA.  Quite a few of the Caribbean islands have adopted specific plans/requirements for tourism (which has already restarted on some islands) but I have not seen any plan that included cruise ships.  Outside of the Caribbean the situation is even worse.  To the best of my knowledge there is not a single port in the world (Mexico might be an exception) that will currently accept a ship from the USA (or even with USA passengers).  

 

As to the CDC we agree with ChengKP, that the CDC is not likely to allow cruising in the near future.  Since the CDC called for public comments, the normal procedure (for State and the Federal Government) is to read and analyze those comments and eventually publish (in the Federal Register) some type of agency response which would discuss some of the comments and the CDC's reaction.  This procedure could take weeks or even months.  The CDC could (I emphasize "could") also decide to hold a public hearing (or hearings) which would allow additional discussion (these kind of public hearings are a norm for many government agencies).  All this takes time.   Of course the CDC could simply let their no-cruise order expire without further comment, but this no longer seems likely.  

 

The CDC has actually painted themselves in a corner.  Since they have now solicited public input it is now difficult to simply ignore comments and  hammer out some kind of deal (behind closed doors) with the cruise lines and/or CLIA.   Those of us who worked in government dreaded dealing with public comments (and hearings) because it always opened up a hornets nest.  This has already happened to the CDC with at least one anti-cruise group submitting multiple comments.  I will admit to being surprised that the CDC opened up the "public comment door" since that now makes any subsequent decision more dicey.  One might argue that they have complicated a process that would have normally been handled as an internal matter.  If I was running the CDC I might have gone the "public comment route" as a CYA move.  

 

Hank 

 

Hank

[rkacruiser]

3 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

What's missing?

 

Providing an enjoyable cruise.

 

Agreed!  

 

Perhaps the "new generation" of cruisers will have a different definition of what constitutes an "enjoyable cruise" if the response to Covid-19 remains the same as it is today.  

[KirkNC]

13 hours ago, crusinbanjo said:

I looked at this, the protocols being proposed are non starters for Mrs Banjo and myself.  These may help the cruise lines get up and running and if some want to endure the restrictions, more power to them.  If these protocols are temporary, then we will wait until they are no longer needed, if they become permanent, then sadly our cruising days would be over.  The cruise experience, given the restrictions, would no longer be what we enjoy.  We Have been cruising for more than 30 years, but given the magnitude of proposed changes, would need to find other options.

Yup, same here.

[iancal]

14 hours ago, crusinbanjo said:

I looked at this, the protocols being proposed are non starters for Mrs Banjo and myself.  These may help the cruise lines get up and running and if some want to endure the restrictions, more power to them.  If these protocols are temporary, then we will wait until they are no longer needed, if they become permanent, then sadly our cruising days would be over.  The cruise experience, given the restrictions, would no longer be what we enjoy.  We Have been cruising for more than 30 years, but given the magnitude of proposed changes, would need to find other options.

We are in the same space.   I also believe that many cruisers and potential cruisers will feel the same way.   Especially families.   It so the cruisaholics.

IMHO this is the real threat to the industry inasmuch as it will elongate cruise start up and elongate the time it takes for potential cruisers to forget the covid experiences.

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, idiebabe said:

Do you know that the Cruise Lines haven't submitted an Action and Response Plan for the Protocols they have outlined?

I can't say, but based on comments a while back from Carnival's CEO that it was too soon to work up protocols and procedures when they didn't know what the requirements were going to be, I have to assume that the cruise lines are offering this report as a "position paper", and if the CDC agrees to the position, then the lines will start to build their plans.  Nothing I've seen in press releases intimates that anything other than the board's recommendations, so I'm hesitant to say that they have actually progressed to action and response plans.

[ontheweb]

12 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Agreed!  

 

Perhaps the "new generation" of cruisers will have a different definition of what constitutes an "enjoyable cruise" if the response to Covid-19 remains the same as it is today.  

Will there be a new generation of cruisers? Without having any positive cruise experience, they have hear over and over "floating petri dish".

[ABoatNerd]

18 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Will there be a new generation of cruisers? Without having any positive cruise experience, they have hear over and over "floating petri dish".

 

Agree. My 32 year old niece has had 1 cruise on Oasis. She enjoyed it. But.....she will not set foot on a cruise ship until it returns to the same experience. She is starting out and cruises and air are expensive. She said no way would she pay more $ for a lesser experience - and - the "floating petri dish" is well established in her mind.

 

She is the future of cruising and she is not interested in any compromise of the cruise experience. A bell weather.

 

 

[brichar499]

The cruise line-sponsored shore excursions in a bubble will be a deal breaker for me. This may be the only Covid-related requirement that will actually help the cruise lines make money. I'm not against that but I need the ability to explore on my own, grab a cab and go, book my own excursions. I guess it will be a while until those freedoms return.

[iancal]

47 minutes ago, ABoatNerd said:

 

Agree. My 32 year old niece has had 1 cruise on Oasis. She enjoyed it. But.....she will not set foot on a cruise ship until it returns to the same experience. She is starting out and cruises and air are expensive. She said no way would she pay more $ for a lesser experience - and - the "floating petri dish" is well established in her mind.

 

She is the future of cruising and she is not interested in any compromise of the cruise experience. A bell weather.

 

 

I believe there will be a significant contradiction in the minds of many would be cruisers.   They will remember the floating petri dish statements, the Diamond Princess (and other ships) challenge, the covid numbers (worst world wide numbers in the cruise industry's number one market) and relate those directly to the suggestion that masks must be worn, social distancing, regulated ship tours,  etc., etc.

 

 I suspect that this market group will not be comforted by these policies...the opposite will be true.  It will concern them, alarm them,  and have an impact on how and where they spend their vacation budget.

Edited September 25, 2020 by iancal

[NapTown Jim]

1 hour ago, ABoatNerd said:

 

Agree. My 32 year old niece has had 1 cruise on Oasis. She enjoyed it. But.....she will not set foot on a cruise ship until it returns to the same experience. She is starting out and cruises and air are expensive. She said no way would she pay more $ for a lesser experience - and - the "floating petri dish" is well established in her mind.

 

She is the future of cruising and she is not interested in any compromise of the cruise experience. A bell weather.

 

 

 

I'm in almost exactly the same position.  I have 7 cruises under my belt and I love cruising....BUT I work hard, and I want to relax on a cruise.  Masks, restricted tours, and all the rest of the COVID safety protocols diminish the cruise experience for us and we don't want to cruise so bad that we'll wear a mask to do it.  

[iancal]

This is why I do not believe there will be as much price elasticity in cruise prices as some may believe. At least in the mass market lines like HAL, Princess, etc.  

 

IMHO some future cruise prices have been  inflated to encourage cruisers to take FCC's and/or re-book when a cruise is cancelled.  It is an artificial market to keep those booked focused on cruising and not replacing their cancelled cruises with other travel options- or none at all.  Book now before the fares go even higher is the intended message.

 

  Ask a TA how busy new cruise bookings are.

 

Paying more for a lesser experience is not attractive to many people.

Edited September 25, 2020 by iancal