CDC Order

[brisalta]

2 hours ago, echoshipmate said:

"follow the advice of my government", really? Like, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you?

 

The only person who would think that "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you?" is bad would be someone that is being investigated for criminal activity.

You need to do some digging but you will find the records.

[nocl]

10 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Big difference between saying you're a doctor/immunologist, and a lawyer. Do you practice law and file lawsuits, as well?

I highly doubt it. And again, I'm not going to change my mind about cruising based on your comments here, or anybody else's, for that matter. This is my opinion and it won't change: cruising needs to resume, the industry has been unfairly targeted by deceptive media reporting, it's time to resume sailing safely, and this has already begun in Europe so it needs to happen in the USA. All of the major cruise lines agree with me and so do the crew members. Period. End of story. Enough is enough.

Now what exactly was deceptive about the media reporting.  Are you saying that their reports about the Ruby, Grand, and Diamond were incorrect.  Or that they made up the reports about ongoing outbreaks of COVID on the ships after the crew members left.  Maybe it was reports of from the newspapers of different Caribbean islands, such as St Vincent, when they reported finding active COVID cases among cruise line crew members being repatriated.

 

 

[brisalta]

4 hours ago, stevenr597 said:

Have to disagree.  I am a physician and we did not have enough Influenza Vaccine to vaccinate our patients, and we did not have enough Tamiflu to treat our patients.  Dr. Fauci was against mass testing, stating, "that because of the absence of Tamiflu, screening was useless. Interestingly one rarely heard from Fauci during this period....he was the "good soldier."

 

 

(H1N1)pmd09 was a novel influenza strain and rapid process was made in developing a vaccine. The strain was detected in April 2009. Tamifllu was ineffective against this strain. Vaccine was coming online in August. Of course it took time to produce a large number of doses.

The interesting thing about the (H1N1)pmd09 variant was that it seems to have been very regional in its spread. In addition a segment of the population were immune to it. 

From what I have read it spread first in rural areas. Not a single person in the area I live in came down with it nor any of the people I worked with.  Mortality in the USA was ~12,000 people.

It was not politicized so need for the CDC to put on a dog and pony show.  They just sent out their educational materials and press releases regarding the illness.

The CDC should be left to do its work without political interference and publish its science based recommendations on what activities are safe to undertake and under what conditions.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by brisalta

[brisalta]

9 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

LOL, I liked that last line. 😃 FYI I'm an American citizen and my government was advising me not to travel outside the US, and still is. Guess what? We went to Mexico at the end of August for a week, and I'm still here. It's almost like they trust me to make my own decisions, like an adult. But hey, you do you. We're also planning to cruise in Europe next year, virus or no virus. I'll post some pics so you can see them from inside your bubble. 😉

 

Was that before Mexico closed it border with the USA except for essential travel?

Have they reopened it?

[brisalta]

16 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Many people do not realize that the point of having non-medical perople wearing masks is not to protect the wearers.

 

It is to protect others if the wearer has undetected Covid-19 and use of the mask traps most virus particles when the wearer sneezes or coughs or breathes heavily.

 

Anyone who says that are willing to take a risk and not wear a mask is really saying they do not care about possibly infecting other people.

 

 

 

Caribill thank you very much for stating this!!!

[caribill]

Resuming cruising requires ports to go to.

 

Here is current status of a number of vacation destinations:

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/destinations/2020/08/06/covid-19-travel-where-can-americans-vacation-internationally/5517408002/?for-guid=48c4aba2-8f65-466f-91bc-202798581874&itm

 

 

[Potstech]

10 hours ago, Abercrombie2019 said:

I’ll follow the advice of my government (which is still to avoid all cruise ship travel).  The CDC is still the most trusted  organization in the world with respect to infectious diseases.  If you want to ignore their wisdom then by all means please book more cruises.  As a shareholder I appreciate your business. 😷

Might want to update your information with regards the world and the CDC.  The have changed their information more in the last 6 months than in the last 30 years  Wait a week and they will change again.

[Potstech]

1 hour ago, brisalta said:

 

The only person who would think that "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you?" is bad would be someone that is being investigated for criminal activity.

You need to do some digging but you will find the records.

Guess why that statement is considered derogatory to government employees? Because many times it has been seen that the government comes to help and disasters happen. How about the people who the government came to help and there was no criminal activity.  

Looks like some does need to do some digging themselves. 

[ukbecky]

1 hour ago, brisalta said:

 

Was that before Mexico closed it border with the USA except for essential travel?

Have they reopened it?

 

2 weeks ago I was at an all-inclusive in Cancun.  Flew Southwest

EZ PZ

 

Had a really nice week

 

[HappyInVan]

Make sure you wear the masks and listen to the scientists...

 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2020/10/02/fox-news-chris-wallace-trump-covid-19-diagnosis-orig.cnn

 

 

[SinbadThePorter]

6 hours ago, Potstech said:

The have changed their information more in the last 6 months than in the last 30 years

 

Knowledge of coronavirus and its effects have changed more in the past 6 months than in the last 30 years.

 

Do you really expect the CDC to be giving out the exact same advice that they gave out 6 months ago?

[DCGuy64]

13 hours ago, brisalta said:

 

Was that before Mexico closed it border with the USA except for essential travel?

Have they reopened it?

Only the land border was closed. Americans are still allowed to fly into Mexico. FYI Mexico has never closed down to travel, and there are no tests or quarantines required.

 

13 hours ago, nocl said:

Now what exactly was deceptive about the media reporting.  Are you saying that their reports about the Ruby, Grand, and Diamond were incorrect.  Or that they made up the reports about ongoing outbreaks of COVID on the ships after the crew members left.  Maybe it was reports of from the newspapers of different Caribbean islands, such as St Vincent, when they reported finding active COVID cases among cruise line crew members being repatriated.

 

 

I'm really glad you asked about this. Yes, media reports were false. Diamond: Quarantine onboard the ship was due to the Japanese Ministry of Health REQUIRING the passengers and crew to stay put (which, BTW was a smart move: Japan is a very populous country and Tokyo especially. Imagine what might have happened if they'd been able to disembark with no protocols in place). But the media blamed PRINCESS for the outbreak onboard. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but cruise lines aren't allowed to disobey orders by the countries where they dock. They had no choice. Ruby: Maybe you saw recently where the ministry of health in New South Wales was found guilty of mishandling the disembarkation of passengers, which led to the outbreak. MSC Cruises was disallowed from docking in Jamaica (I believe it was back in March) because a crew member was sick (NOT COVID, but the port authorities were worried anyway). MSC angrily responded and said it was unfair the entire ship was not allowed to dock because of a non-COVID related illness. Finally, for months the media has been allowed to peddle a falsehood about cruise ships being "petri dishes" for infection, despite evidence that they're actually much safer than other environments. So yeah, I think the media has done a p***-poor job of reporting the facts.

[RocketMan275]

On 10/7/2020 at 1:38 AM, caribill said:

 

Many people do not realize that the point of having non-medical perople wearing masks is not to protect the wearers.

 

It is to protect others if the wearer has undetected Covid-19 and use of the mask traps most virus particles when the wearer sneezes or coughs or breathes heavily.

 

Anyone who says that are willing to take a risk and not wear a mask is really saying they do not care about possibly infecting other people.

 

 

Why not wear two masks,  you'll protect yourself and others?

[voljeep]

11 hours ago, ukbecky said:

 

2 weeks ago I was at an all-inclusive in Cancun.  Flew Southwest

EZ PZ

 

Had a really nice week

 

sounds nice ... glad you weren't there the last couple of days, huh ?⛱️

[HappyInVan]

23 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Why not wear two masks,  you'll protect yourself and others?

 

 

All you need is to wear one good mask, properly fitted. The wearer is protected when the mask covers the nose.

[Potstech]

5 hours ago, SinbadThePorter said:

 

Knowledge of coronavirus and its effects have changed more in the past 6 months than in the last 30 years.

 

Do you really expect the CDC to be giving out the exact same advice that they gave out 6 months ago?

I expect them to be consistent which they are not. By the way some throughout the world think they should.

[Potstech]

4 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

 

All you need is to wear one good mask, properly fitted. The wearer is protected when the mask covers the nose.

How many have let alone wear a properly fitted mask.  Or even knows what one is. 

[voljeep]

7 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

All you need is to wear one good mask, properly fitted.

properly fitted is definitely the key - that might mean going to a professional who has the means and expertise to make that happen - my wife had to do that for a project even before all this Corona's started ...

[DCGuy64]

12 hours ago, ukbecky said:

 

2 weeks ago I was at an all-inclusive in Cancun.  Flew Southwest

EZ PZ

 

Had a really nice week

 

We did that, too, from end of Aug to early Sep. Had a wonderful time, and we were treated wonderfully by the staff at the resort. I wanna go back already!

[voljeep]

I think we fit in better with a Princess cruise demographic rather than an all-inclusive in Cancun demographic

 

maybe 25 years and 25 lbs ago ...

[HappyInVan]

24 minutes ago, voljeep said:

properly fitted is definitely the key - that might mean going to a professional who has the means and expertise to make that happen - my wife had to do that for a project even before all this Corona's started ...

 

 

It was a DIY project for me. I shifted the mask and breathed hard until there was no detectable seepage of air around the edges. 

 

The mask should cover more of the face (like the N95 used in surgeries) and be baggy in front (like the KN95). There's a tendency for the mask to be pulled downwards as we talk. 

 

Do not use a small mask. The mask should fit comfortably under the jaw.

 

That's my 2 cents worth.

Edited October 8, 2020 by HappyInVan

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

 

It was a DIY project for me. I shifted the mask and breathed hard until there was no detectable seepage of air around the edges. 

 

The mask should cover more of the face (like the N95 used in surgeries) and be baggy in front (like the KN95). There's a tendency for the mask to be pulled downwards as we talk. 

 

Do not use a small mask. The mask should fit comfortably under the jaw.

 

That's my 2 cents worth.

Well, then masks as normally worn are truly ineffective.  Especially those made from t-shirts.

The bottom line, if  you want to protect yourself, get a proper mask properly fitted.  Then you don't have to worry about others wearing a mask.

[HappyInVan]

28 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

The bottom line, if  you want to protect yourself, get a proper mask properly fitted.  Then you don't have to worry about others wearing a mask.

 

No. You don't seem to understand the science.

 

We expel the virus as we cough/sneeze and talk/sing. Without a mask, the stuff gets all over the tables/chairs and your clothes and hair. It gets on your forehead, and you're spread it around your face as you wipe your face.

 

Civilians do not have the knowledge or discipline to carry out decontamination. Medical and hazmat staff are trained specifically to avoid infection hazards.

 

The safest protocol is to avoid contamination of the ambient environment. Best not to bring the infection into your workplace, school or home. That way, we can relax once we are in our private space.

 

South Korea (pop 52m) is in a good place because there is such a low incident of covid. Each outbreak is professional managed. The baseline seems to be 50-100 cases a day. That's pretty good?

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by HappyInVan

[nocl]

2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Only the land border was closed. Americans are still allowed to fly into Mexico. FYI Mexico has never closed down to travel, and there are no tests or quarantines required.

 

I'm really glad you asked about this. Yes, media reports were false. Diamond: Quarantine onboard the ship was due to the Japanese Ministry of Health REQUIRING the passengers and crew to stay put (which, BTW was a smart move: Japan is a very populous country and Tokyo especially. Imagine what might have happened if they'd been able to disembark with no protocols in place). But the media blamed PRINCESS for the outbreak onboard. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but cruise lines aren't allowed to disobey orders by the countries where they dock. They had no choice. Ruby: Maybe you saw recently where the ministry of health in New South Wales was found guilty of mishandling the disembarkation of passengers, which led to the outbreak. MSC Cruises was disallowed from docking in Jamaica (I believe it was back in March) because a crew member was sick (NOT COVID, but the port authorities were worried anyway). MSC angrily responded and said it was unfair the entire ship was not allowed to dock because of a non-COVID related illness. Finally, for months the media has been allowed to peddle a falsehood about cruise ships being "petri dishes" for infection, despite evidence that they're actually much safer than other environments. So yeah, I think the media has done a p***-poor job of reporting the facts.

Don't have much time to respond this morning, but will in depth this evening from my hotel.

 

First of all the articles I read, which was quite a few did not assign blame in the Diamond situation. Except for questioning why Princess did not react when their Hong Kong port agent reported that a passenger that had gotten off tested positive. Princess did get mentioned a lot, but I do believe that using the full name of the ship, Diamond Princess is appropriate. Just as it was with Ruby Princess and Grand Princess.

 

There are a number of research papers on the Diamond Princess. They are consistent in that Analysis shows that among the passengers the infections occurred prior to quarantine, with the exception of passengers traveling in the same cabin with previously infected passengers. The crew was a different story with a mix of infections occurring both before and after quarantine. I guess they could have followed the Ruby model and let infected passengers get off and be the cause of a high percentage of all Australian cases at the time.

 

Again the reporting pretty much presented the facts. but unfortunately those facts were not favorable to the cruise lines. I guess the other option would have been not to cover the story.

 

The cruiselines did not exactly demonstrate the ability to control Covid infections on ships among the crew even after the passengers had gotten off.

 

As far as the petri dish comments. Most of the were opinions of individuals, that when reported were presented as such in the stories. Of course at the time, early in the outbreak, the cruise ship cases accounted for a majority of the cases in Australia and Japan and 15%  of the cases in the US.

 

Maybe you should post some links to articles that you think are examples of deceptive reporting. Then we can see and discuss the merits of the articles you pick as being examples of deceptive reporting.

Edited October 8, 2020 by nocl

[RocketMan275]

2 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

No. You don't seem to understand the science.

 

We expel the virus as we cough/sneeze and talk/sing. Without a mask, the stuff gets all over the tables/chairs and your clothes and hair. It gets on your forehead, and you're spread it around your face as you wipe your face.

 

Civilians do not have the knowledge or discipline to carry out decontamination. Medical and hazmat staff are trained specifically to avoid infection hazards.

 

The safest protocol is to avoid contamination of the ambient environment. Best not to bring the infection into your workplace, school or home.

 

South Korea (pop 52m) is in a good place because there is such a low incident of covid. Each outbreak is professional managed. The baseline seems to be 50-100 cases a day. That's pretty good?

 

Oh, I understand the science.

With a mask, the stuff gets all over your face, etc., when you constantly touch  your face while adjusting the mask.

I was a chemical warfare decontamination analyst for about two years.  I know that civilians aren't trained in proper masking. 

If your intent is self-protection and if it requires two masks to stop the virus, then wear two masks.