Covid-19 infections onboard - future plans

[phoenix_dream]

I realize this topic gets briefly touched upon in other threads, but it is so important I strongly feel it warrants its own thread.  I also understand this is far from all being decided yet, but feel it warrants discussion as much or more so than mask wearing or shore excursions.

 

Most of the discussion around resuming sailing seems to revolve around concerns about wearing masks, going on ship sponsored shore excursions, timed embarkation, and other inconvenient but not literally life changing procedures.  I admit I have taken part in a few of those discussions.  But in the scheme of things, those changes are minor inconveniences.  So much more important (by a landslide) is how will Celebrity handle infections and exposures onboard?  I realize we don't know many answers yet, but we have some very general guidance from the sailing panel.  I personally will not sail again until I am comfortable with how Celebrity will handle the following:

 

• How will medical facilities change?  Will additional equipment, personnel, space, and Covid specific training take place?
• How will infected passengers not required to be in sick bay be isolated?  Are specific isolation cabins to be set aside?  If so, what kind?
• How will contact tracing take place?  
• If someone has been identified as exposed due to contact tracing, will they be required to be quarantined?  If so, for how long, and where?
• If a passenger is infected, will they be dropped off at the next/nearest port of call, regardless of whether that port has good medical facilities?  Will all their traveling companions be expected to disembark with them?  (thinking of families traveling in groups).  The sailing panel if I recall talks about dropping passengers off in pre-arranged ports and providing a way for them to get home but it is very vague.
• Presuming they are being dropped off, how are they expected to get back to their home country, and then to their home city, and who pays for that transportation?
• If they are too sick to travel, who is responsible for food and shelter of their companions while they (hopefully) recover?
• Worse yet - what if they are disembarked at a port of call, and end up dying there.  Does Celebrity still have responsibility for getting them and their companions home?  Sounds awful but folks, this is certainly a possibility.
• I realize this is a sticky legal question - but if someone catches the virus onboard the ship, who is responsible for the medical care costs?  I realize this answer could vary depending upon whether Celebrity is found to be negligent.  This is a crucial question as most travel insurance excludes pandemics.  And on that thought, will we be required to sign some sort of hold harmless agreement before boarding? 

 

As I've stated, I feel these questions are so much more critical than whether we need to wear a mask or not.  What do we know now on these topics, and does anyone have any additional insight on what might be coming down the line regarding Celebrity's procedures on these important topics?

[Arizona Wildcat]

If the Royal Caribbean/NCL guideline are made into rules then most of your questions are answered.  Until final rules are put into place anything is simply guessing.  It does seem likely that the framework of the multipoint plan will being pretty close.  Again resumption of cruising involves lots more than just ships being ready to go.

To answer some of your questions:

 

There are specific changes in the RC/NCL guidelines expending medical staffing, equipment and beds.

If you become ill on board it would be your problem for expenses.  There actually is insurance available that covers COVID.  More companies will be writing in the future.  If using your own insurance it is certainly policy specific.

 

If you become ill you would certainly be quaranteened in your own cabin.  Where else would they put you?

 

If COVID positive the proposal suggests you would be disembarked at the next port.  Each port of call required to have an agreement to accept patients.  Yes, I 100% get it this not always possible.  Port agreements will likely take some time.  Again the bills would be your expense.  

 

If travelling with others they could stay on board or leave the ship.  Nothing different here from existing situations when someone dies or say has a heart attack.  Again medical etc is your $$.

 

Cruise lines have historically assisted with accommodation and organizing travel and occasionally some expenses but have no legal obligation that I am aware of to do so.

 

Who knows how contact tracing will take place.  Bracelets work great but I expect interviews. Quaranteen certainly would be in your cabin for X days.

 

COVID testing at the port is unclear as to who pays but it seems if required the cruiseline would pay for that and any on board required testing.  Again TBD on $.

 

My DW is asthmatic, a teeny tiny bit overweight and a cancer survivor.  Thus we are a bit more cautious. We will examine cruising after a vaccine is generally available AND as our existing insurance does not cover travel into areas under a medical travel advisory - wait until that is rescinded.  Hoping to cruise in August.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Arizona Wildcat

[jelayne]

Until final plans are approved and published there are no clear answers.  Personally, we will have coverage for medical, evacuation and repatriation expenses just as we always do when traveling.  

Even if all passengers test negative within 5 days of boarding and again on boarding  it is possible that some will come down with Covid while on the ship from exposure days before boarding
Unless the cruise line was clearly negligent I don’t feel they would be liable to pay medical expenses. 

[Jeremiah1212]

The piece that RCG and NCL created contains what is likely the most valid insight to all of the concerns listed at this point in time. It addresses most of the items mentioned, even if in a loose manner. 

 

The full report is located here. 

 

Just my own opinion, but if you choose to travel during a pandemic, you should be on your own to pay for the costs associated with getting yourself to safety or to get yourself home. You took the risk, you should have to deal with the reprocussions.   

[Fouremco]

Hopefully, all of these questions will be answered when Celebrity publishes its new safety protocols. While I think these issues are important, IMO the preventative protocols are at least as important.

[Covepointcruiser]

I believe the report recommends cabins set aside for quarantined passengers.    If you have the virus and your cabin mates doesn’t there is no sense in you both becoming ill.  
I would assume the cabins put aside for this purpose won’t be the nicest on the ship.

[phoenix_dream]

30 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Hopefully, all of these questions will be answered when Celebrity publishes its new safety protocols. While I think these issues are important, IMO the preventative protocols are at least as important.

I agree completely hat the preventive protocols are at least as important.  I didn't mean to imply I didn't - sorry if it came out that way.  But it seemed to me that so many were just so worried about being inconvenienced that they were totally ignoring the critical questions.  So what I meant was the care of the sick onboard was much more important than whether we would be inconvenienced by having to wear masks, etc..

[wrk2cruise]

I believe the recommendation was for a balcony cabin preferably.   That's why I think people claiming that what's in that report IS what Celebrity will be doing is not necessarily true.

[wrk2cruise]

I'm also concerned with the issues you brought up with this topic.   For example if I test positive during the cruise and am asymptomatic, or mild symptoms, I would much prefer to be isolated on the ship until the conclusion of the cruise rather than being disembarked in a foreign port.  I'm also been concerned about finding a travel insurance policy with the proper (to me) protection for covid (medical, cancellation, trip interruption etc.)

[deliver42]

As far as expenses are concerned, I would think that whatever expenses you would have if you got sick ( not Covid-19) on any cruise, the expenses would be yours, not the cruise lines.

[Arizona Wildcat]

11 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

I agree completely hat the preventive protocols are at least as important.  I didn't mean to imply I didn't - sorry if it came out that way.  But it seemed to me that so many were just so worried about being inconvenienced that they were totally ignoring the critical questions.  So what I meant was the care of the sick onboard was much more important than whether we would be inconvenienced by having to wear masks, etc..

It did not sound you were not concerned about responsible behavior.

Read the RC/NCL guidelines again.  

Since cruising will resume with limited occupancy of course there will be lots of open cabins. 

With limited medical facilities the procedure with patients has been to evacuate when possible.  Would it be different with COVID? 

Pretty much people need to get it that the cruise contract says you pay for treatment if you get sick.  COVID no different than other conditions.

Your questions were well articulated.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Arizona Wildcat

[howiefrommd]

When the April NSO was published they outlined what needed to be in place to safely resume cruising.   Although I have not been in  clinical practice for some time, I still provide consultation in regard to Medical/Healthcare Quality Analytics.  You articulate very legitimate concerns in your post. From a practical standpoint, your first bullet point alone is a herculean task to overcome.  What CDC has indicated in their NSO is that a ship must maintain an ICU level of care and that the clinicians aboard (physicians and nurses) possess the education, training and experience appropriate to that level of care.  The reality there is tremendous shortage on intensivist physicians and nurses. Where are the cruise lines going to get these clinicians in the numbers that will be required?

 

 

[phoenix_dream]

12 hours ago, howiefrommd said:

When the April NSO was published they outlined what needed to be in place to safely resume cruising.   Although I have not been in  clinical practice for some time, I still provide consultation in regard to Medical/Healthcare Quality Analytics.  You articulate very legitimate concerns in your post. From a practical standpoint, your first bullet point alone is a herculean task to overcome.  What CDC has indicated in their NSO is that a ship must maintain an ICU level of care and that the clinicians aboard (physicians and nurses) possess the education, training and experience appropriate to that level of care.  The reality there is tremendous shortage on intensivist physicians and nurses. Where are the cruise lines going to get these clinicians in the numbers that will be required?

 

 

Agreed.  Some of the discussion on these boards has failed to remember all the restrictions the CDC had set forth.  ICU level of care is one of the biggest.  I think the second biggest perhaps is related to getting passengers back home.  The CDC was requiring the cruise lines to ensure private transportation for their sick passengers.  This is potentially an enormous cost, and certainly not one the average cruiser could manage.  And to those who think travel insurance will pay for it - guess again.  If there is in fact travel insurance that will cover pandemics (and one had better read that fine print carefully!!) it would be extremely expensive.  Even your standard "cancel for any reason" policy may exclude pandemics (in fact I think most/all do).  The fact that many posters mention getting travel insurance from now on leads me to believe they think they would be covered.  But in all likelihood not.  Huge issues IMHO.

[TeeRick]

17 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

I realize this topic gets briefly touched upon in other threads, but it is so important I strongly feel it warrants its own thread.  I also understand this is far from all being decided yet, but feel it warrants discussion as much or more so than mask wearing or shore excursions.

 

Most of the discussion around resuming sailing seems to revolve around concerns about wearing masks, going on ship sponsored shore excursions, timed embarkation, and other inconvenient but not literally life changing procedures.  I admit I have taken part in a few of those discussions.  But in the scheme of things, those changes are minor inconveniences.  So much more important (by a landslide) is how will Celebrity handle infections and exposures onboard?  I realize we don't know many answers yet, but we have some very general guidance from the sailing panel.  I personally will not sail again until I am comfortable with how Celebrity will handle the following:

 

• How will medical facilities change?  Will additional equipment, personnel, space, and Covid specific training take place?
• How will infected passengers not required to be in sick bay be isolated?  Are specific isolation cabins to be set aside?  If so, what kind?
• How will contact tracing take place?  
• If someone has been identified as exposed due to contact tracing, will they be required to be quarantined?  If so, for how long, and where?
• If a passenger is infected, will they be dropped off at the next/nearest port of call, regardless of whether that port has good medical facilities?  Will all their traveling companions be expected to disembark with them?  (thinking of families traveling in groups).  The sailing panel if I recall talks about dropping passengers off in pre-arranged ports and providing a way for them to get home but it is very vague.
• Presuming they are being dropped off, how are they expected to get back to their home country, and then to their home city, and who pays for that transportation?
• If they are too sick to travel, who is responsible for food and shelter of their companions while they (hopefully) recover?
• Worse yet - what if they are disembarked at a port of call, and end up dying there.  Does Celebrity still have responsibility for getting them and their companions home?  Sounds awful but folks, this is certainly a possibility.
• I realize this is a sticky legal question - but if someone catches the virus onboard the ship, who is responsible for the medical care costs?  I realize this answer could vary depending upon whether Celebrity is found to be negligent.  This is a crucial question as most travel insurance excludes pandemics.  And on that thought, will we be required to sign some sort of hold harmless agreement before boarding? 

 

As I've stated, I feel these questions are so much more critical than whether we need to wear a mask or not.  What do we know now on these topics, and does anyone have any additional insight on what might be coming down the line regarding Celebrity's procedures on these important topics?

phoenix_dream these are great questions and every one of them would need to be answered to my satisfaction before I cruise again.  Thanks for framing the important questions here!

[bigbenboys]

On 10/1/2020 at 3:31 PM, Covepointcruiser said:

I believe the report recommends cabins set aside for quarantined passengers.    If you have the virus and your cabin mates doesn’t there is no sense in you both becoming ill.  
I would assume the cabins put aside for this purpose won’t be the nicest on the ship.

Recommendations from the Healthy sail Panel. Link in Post #4. Thanks #Jeremiah1212.

Page 46

For isolation, cruise operators will need dedicated space that has been configured for this purpose. The Panel recommends that isolation rooms be redesigned to limit the risk of transmission through surfaces (e.g., remove carpets so floors can be sanitized, remove throw pillows that can’t be easily washed, use disposable items where possible). Additionally, the ventilation of these rooms should have increased filtration and a negligible risk of contamination for adjacent spaces

Page 47

Individuals who have tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 or individuals who are experiencing symptoms consistent with a SARS-CoV-2 infection will be isolated in designated isolation cabins within close proximity to the medical ward. A set of protocols apply to isolation including periodic health checks, cleaning, and meal delivery. • Individuals who were exposed to an individual with a confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection will be quarantined in a single occupancy cabin with a private bathroom (unless quarantining with family members or close contacts with the same exposure history), no interconnection with an adjoining room, door closed, and preferably with a balcony.

[Sunshine3601]

There are some travel insurance plans now covering Covid.  I usually get Geo Trekker but they will only cover testing.  The Geo Voyager plan now covers covid.  I did a mock quote last week and a 2 week trip was a cost of $165.  Bit more than what it used to be but a heck of alot cheaper than paying for med expenses out of pocket.

[TeeRick]

13 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

There are some travel insurance plans now covering Covid.  I usually get Geo Trekker but they will only cover testing.  The Geo Voyager plan now covers covid.  I did a mock quote last week and a 2 week trip was a cost of $165.  Bit more than what it used to be but a heck of alot cheaper than paying for med expenses out of pocket.

Thank you for posting this information.  I looked at the policy and they cover the medical costs and transportation costs for COVID-19 and pandemics. Great news. 

[bouhunter]

On 10/1/2020 at 5:13 PM, phoenix_dream said:

I realize this topic gets briefly touched upon in other threads, but it is so important I strongly feel it warrants its own thread.  I also understand this is far from all being decided yet, but feel it warrants discussion as much or more so than mask wearing or shore excursions.

 

Most of the discussion around resuming sailing seems to revolve around concerns about wearing masks, going on ship sponsored shore excursions, timed embarkation, and other inconvenient but not literally life changing procedures.  I admit I have taken part in a few of those discussions.  But in the scheme of things, those changes are minor inconveniences.  So much more important (by a landslide) is how will Celebrity handle infections and exposures onboard?  I realize we don't know many answers yet, but we have some very general guidance from the sailing panel.  I personally will not sail again until I am comfortable with how Celebrity will handle the following:

 

• How will medical facilities change?  Will additional equipment, personnel, space, and Covid specific training take place?
• How will infected passengers not required to be in sick bay be isolated?  Are specific isolation cabins to be set aside?  If so, what kind?
• How will contact tracing take place?  
• If someone has been identified as exposed due to contact tracing, will they be required to be quarantined?  If so, for how long, and where?
• If a passenger is infected, will they be dropped off at the next/nearest port of call, regardless of whether that port has good medical facilities?  Will all their traveling companions be expected to disembark with them?  (thinking of families traveling in groups).  The sailing panel if I recall talks about dropping passengers off in pre-arranged ports and providing a way for them to get home but it is very vague.
• Presuming they are being dropped off, how are they expected to get back to their home country, and then to their home city, and who pays for that transportation?
• If they are too sick to travel, who is responsible for food and shelter of their companions while they (hopefully) recover?
• Worse yet - what if they are disembarked at a port of call, and end up dying there.  Does Celebrity still have responsibility for getting them and their companions home?  Sounds awful but folks, this is certainly a possibility.
• I realize this is a sticky legal question - but if someone catches the virus onboard the ship, who is responsible for the medical care costs?  I realize this answer could vary depending upon whether Celebrity is found to be negligent.  This is a crucial question as most travel insurance excludes pandemics.  And on that thought, will we be required to sign some sort of hold harmless agreement before boarding? 

 

As I've stated, I feel these questions are so much more critical than whether we need to wear a mask or not.  What do we know now on these topics, and does anyone have any additional insight on what might be coming down the line regarding Celebrity's procedures on these important topics?

All good questions.  But honestly, with that many extensive, detailed concerns, I don't think you're going to be cruising for a long time.  May as well relax and forget about it until the virus is pretty much gone, which will be a few years.

[D C]

On 10/1/2020 at 8:59 PM, howiefrommd said:

When the April NSO was published they outlined what needed to be in place to safely resume cruising.   Although I have not been in  clinical practice for some time, I still provide consultation in regard to Medical/Healthcare Quality Analytics.  You articulate very legitimate concerns in your post. From a practical standpoint, your first bullet point alone is a herculean task to overcome.  What CDC has indicated in their NSO is that a ship must maintain an ICU level of care and that the clinicians aboard (physicians and nurses) possess the education, training and experience appropriate to that level of care.  The reality there is tremendous shortage on intensivist physicians and nurses. Where are the cruise lines going to get these clinicians in the numbers that will be required?

 

 

 

ICU level of care on a ship is really a perplexing requirement.   The only time where I can see that making sense is in an ocean crossing where the ship is really out of reach for days.   In the Caribbean, for example, a port is never so far away that a detour or helicopter isn't an option.  

[D C]

14 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

There are some travel insurance plans now covering Covid.  I usually get Geo Trekker but they will only cover testing.  The Geo Voyager plan now covers covid.  I did a mock quote last week and a 2 week trip was a cost of $165.  Bit more than what it used to be but a heck of alot cheaper than paying for med expenses out of pocket.

That's not too bad.   I'll have to check it out. 

[Sunshine3601]

1 hour ago, D C said:

 

ICU level of care on a ship is really a perplexing requirement.   The only time where I can see that making sense is in an ocean crossing where the ship is really out of reach for days.   In the Caribbean, for example, a port is never so far away that a detour or helicopter isn't an option.  

The health plan rcl submitted to cdc detailed their plan to have x amount of doctors and nurses on board each ship that are or will be trained to handle any covid patients.  They stated they will have x amount of ventilators and be stocked on whatever therapeutics are approved at the time to treat covid.  If I remember correctly when reading their plan 2 weeks ago they would have a medical area set up in a separate area from their standard medical area that is available to treat any non covid medical needs.

[phoenix_dream]

10 hours ago, bouhunter said:

All good questions.  But honestly, with that many extensive, detailed concerns, I don't think you're going to be cruising for a long time.  May as well relax and forget about it until the virus is pretty much gone, which will be a few years.

IMHO anyone who is willing to sail without satisfactory answers to these questions is a fool, or fooling themselves.   This virus may in fact never go away.  But I have a right to know how things will be handled before I set foot onboard. Why would anyone even consider going without knowing these things? Once procedures are spelled out, people can then evaluate risk versus reward and decide whether to sail.  I seriously doubt that will take years, much less a few years.

[phoenix_dream]

On 10/4/2020 at 10:54 AM, D C said:

 

ICU level of care on a ship is really a perplexing requirement.   The only time where I can see that making sense is in an ocean crossing where the ship is really out of reach for days.   In the Caribbean, for example, a port is never so far away that a detour or helicopter isn't an option.  

But do you really want to rely on the ICU level capabilities of a port like Jamaica, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, etc,? I know I wouldn’t.

[TeeRick]

Perhaps very, very few COVID-infected passengers that got sick on a ship would immediately require ICU care.  Remember these are folks who passed a COVID test in order to board.    It takes a number of days to even weeks for the disease to progress to this ICU level in most hospitalized individuals.  So not sure that ships require ICU's and the small number requiring them could be taken by medivac to a qualified hospital (like other serious medical conditions on ships).  We have come a long way in understanding and diagnosis and treatment since Feb-Mar 2020.

[Baron Barracuda]

On 10/3/2020 at 8:39 PM, Sunshine3601 said:

There are some travel insurance plans now covering Covid.  I usually get Geo Trekker but they will only cover testing.  The Geo Voyager plan now covers covid.  I did a mock quote last week and a 2 week trip was a cost of $165.  Bit more than what it used to be but a heck of alot cheaper than paying for med expenses out of pocket.

Prior to purchasing I recommend calling them and asking some pointed questions regarding their covid coverage.   Many of the plans benefits are only covered if deemed "medically necessary".  So if for example you test positive and are put ashore, even if asymptomatic, what assistance does the policy provide?  You aren't sick enough to be hospitalized and can't get a hotel room or flight home without lying about your condition.