Mask exemption policy

[BermudaBound2014]

@DCGuy64

Agreed: A very slippery slop.

Fact: I am less optimistic than you.

My Opinion: Vaccines will be required for some travel (airplanes, cruise ships, etc..). 

 

Can you elaborate on your promise that mandatory vaccines won't fly in the USA?  I'm genuinely curious.

Edited November 25, 2020 by BermudaBound2014

[DCGuy64]

7 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

@DCGuy64

Agreed: A very slippery slop.

Fact: I am less optimistic than you.

My Opinion: Vaccines will be required for some travel (airplanes, cruise ships, etc..). 

 

Can you elaborate on your promise that mandatory vaccines won't fly in the USA?  I'm genuinely curious.

Sure, I just think that too many people will balk at the idea of being forced to choose between a vaccine and living their lives as normal. When I was a child, I was immunized against the mumps, measles, and chicken pox, but I was never required to show some kind of physical proof (such as a document) throughout my life in order to attend school, get on public transportation, shop, travel, etc. Shoot, here in the USA a few years ago, there was talk of stopping people in Arizona "suspected of being in the country illegally," and that set off a whole debate about "show us your papers" and other dystopian scenarios of people being kept on lists and being asked to prove they weren't illegal. If vaccinations against COVID-19 are handled this way, it would be (in my opinion) a two-tiered society of those who could prove they were vaccinated and those who couldn't. Scary, and I strongly suspect, unconstitutional. Of course I could be wrong.

[sidari]

DC ... Possibly against Human Rights as well.

[Two Wheels Only]

23 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

When I was a child, I was immunized against the mumps, measles, and chicken pox, but I was never required to show some kind of physical proof (such as a document) throughout my life in order to attend school, get on public transportation, shop, travel, etc.

 

My kids were required to show proof of immunization for public school.

 

"The Florida Certification of Immunization, Form 680, must be used to document the immunizations required for entry and attendance in Florida schools."

 

 

[DCGuy64]

Just now, Two Wheels Only said:

 

My kids were required to show proof of immunization for public school.

 

"The Florida Certification of Immunization, Form 680, must be used to document the immunizations required for entry and attendance in Florida schools."

 

 

Well in my case it was 50 years ago, so my memory might be going, LOL. 🤣

But be that as it may, we're talking about vaccinations (or proof thereof) being required to move about in society at all. That strikes me as a bit of a stretch. What if someone has a bad reaction to the vaccine and can't work or gets sick, who pays for that person's care? We've had lots of debate in the US over whether to require photo ID just to vote. Telling people they're not welcome without proof of a vaccine is going to be a tough sell, in my view. Why would it stop at airlines and cruise ships? I'm just saying it's going to be tricky.

[DCGuy64]

Here's an article describing why the German Ethics Council advised (back in September) against the use of so-called immunity passports.

https://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/germany-ethics-council-advises-against-covid-19-immunity-passports/

Here's an excerpt: "The other half of the members advise against the use of immunity passports even if the uncertainties regarding immunity are resolved, because they believe this will lead to a two-tier society. (At 40, para. 3.2.3.) They state that instead of issuing immunity passports, the current successful pandemic protection strategies of the federal government and the German states should be continued and adjusted accordingly to reinstate individual freedoms and rights."

[Geobugs]

19 minutes ago, Two Wheels Only said:

 

My kids were required to show proof of immunization for public school.

 

"The Florida Certification of Immunization, Form 680, must be used to document the immunizations required for entry and attendance in Florida schools."

 

 

In Florida, Form DH 681, Religious Exemption From Immunization, is issued if immunizations are in conflict with the religious tenets and practices of the child's parent or guardian. This exemption is issued by a County Health Department (CHD) and based on established religious beliefs or practices only.

[Two Wheels Only]

3 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

But be that as it may, we're talking about vaccinations (or proof thereof) being required to move about in society at all.

 

It depends on how you look at it. Nobody is required to cruise. The argument could be made that people aren't required to show proof of immunization for everyday life but are required to show for other things such as mass transit. I don't think that it will happen across the board but a cruise line requiring proof isn't out of the question. 

 

15 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Telling people they're not welcome without proof of a vaccine is going to be a tough sell, in my view. Why would it stop at airlines and cruise ships? I'm just saying it's going to be tricky.

 

I agree that deciding on the "boundaries" would be tricky. What private businesses decide is usually stricter than what society decides. I can walk around in public all day in shorts and a t-shirt but if a private business such as a restaurant decides that a jacket and tie is required, I cannot dine in their restaurant until I meet their requirement. 

 

3 minutes ago, Geobugs said:

In Florida, Form DH 681, Religious Exemption From Immunization, is issued if immunizations are in conflict with the religious tenets and practices of the child's parent or guardian. This exemption is issued by a County Health Department (CHD) and based on established religious beliefs or practices only.

 

It's still a document. The point was that documentation is still required. 

 

"Exemptions for personal or philosophical reasons are not permitted under Florida law." 

[hamrag]

4 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

....I promise you that taking a stance of "get vaccinated or be shunned" is not going to fly, legally speaking.

 

Opinion or fact?

[Formula280SS]

6 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

As vaccines begin to be distributed and administered, which in the USA could be as early as mid-December, I will be interested to see how the pro-vaccine vs anti-vaccine debate plays out. There are legitimate civil liberty concerns, in my opinion, about how much "the common good" outweighs people's personal rights and bodily autonomy. Imagine a scenario in which people aren't allowed to go out in public, to the grocery store, school, job site, shopping mall, etc., to say nothing of airplanes or cruise ships, without proof they've been vaccinated. That's a massive slippery slope, if you ask me. One suggestion of a COVID passport for tourists has already been struck down in Germany over concerns it would create a two-tiered society. Speaking for myself, I have no problems with vaccines, but I know many people who do, and I promise you that taking a stance of "get vaccinated or be shunned" is not going to fly, legally speaking.

 

Looks like you attracted a "follower."  😲 

 

Doesn't read the clearly open and considerate discussion of the matter.  🙈 🙉 🙊

 

 

 

 

[capriccio]

9 hours ago, Two Wheels Only said:

 

My kids were required to show proof of immunization for public school.

 

 

Our kids were required to show proof of immunization for college (private universities) in 2000 and 2004 and grad school (public university) in 2011.

[emmas gran]

We have a little "Yellow Fever" passport size vaccination card, I would be happy to carry something like that

[8420PR]

I see two possible vaccine scenarios:

 

Scenario 1 - The best case:

The vaccine is successful in creating immunity in at risk groups.    This means at-risk groups can be protected by the vaccine and others can decide if they want the vaccine or not.  COVID-19 will no longer be a immediately deadly disease, so life can return to some normality.  If you take a cruise and are not vaccinated you run the risk of getting ill and possibly having long term side effects and big medical bills, but it will have been your choice.  Both the vulnerable and anti-vaxers are happy.

 

Scenario 2 - The worst case:

If the vaccine doesn't create immunity in at risk groups (typically because their immune systems are not strong enough) then we need to vaccinate everyone else in order to reduce the disease prevalence and create real herd immunity.  It will take much longer to return to normal (as many more need to be vaccinated), and social media won't be pretty.

[surmy555]

Best idea I've heard is to skip another individual $1,200 stimulus payment and pay each individual $1,200 if they are vaccinated instead  

[crazyank]

On 11/25/2020 at 2:59 PM, DCGuy64 said:

One suggestion of a COVID passport for tourists has already been struck down in Germany over concerns it would create a two-tiered society.

Please quote a source for this info.  There is nothing whatsoever in the German media saying anything like this.

 

On 11/25/2020 at 2:59 PM, DCGuy64 said:

I promise you that taking a stance of "get vaccinated or be shunned" is not going to fly, legally speaking.

Don't make promises you can't keep.  "get vaccinated or be shunned" (your words) absolutely CAN be enforced by private companies like airlines and cruise lines.  Vaccinations have been mandatory to do certain things for many years.  Take a look at mandatory vaccinations to travel to certain countries, and that's just one example.

[Homosassa]

On 11/25/2020 at 12:43 PM, DCGuy64 said:

Well in my case it was 50 years ago, so my memory might be going, LOL. 🤣

 

I entered kindergarten sixty five years ago.

 

At that time, an  immunization for  smallpox and the DTP (diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis) were required for entry into school in New York State.

 

The polio vaccines (first Salk, later Sabin) were also mandatory when they became available.

 

While I wish Covid 19 would be mandatory for all, it has already been reported here in Florida that the state leadership has already signaled that the Covid 19 will not be required for all.   

[popsaw]

All 55 states  allow immunization exemptions for medical conditions so your wish that the covid 19 vaccine be mandatory for all will not happen. Surely you do not disagree with the existing legal exemptions for medical reasons?

Edited November 29, 2020 by popsaw
missing word

[popsaw]

Meant to say all 55 states.

[d9704011]

20 minutes ago, popsaw said:

All 55 states  allow immunization exemptions for medical conditions so your wish that the covid 19 vaccine be mandatory for all will not happen. Surely you do not disagree with the existing legal exemptions for medical reasons?

Exemptions for medical conditions doesn’t necessarily mean that the exempted person is going to be permitted to do anything they wish.  Going back to your original question regarding masks and an MSC cruise, do you believe that people should be able to cruise without a mask while those who are not exempted are required to wear one (similar question for a vaccination requirement)?

[popsaw]

9 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

Exemptions for medical conditions doesn’t necessarily mean that the exempted person is going to be permitted to do anything they wish.  Going back to your original question regarding masks and an MSC cruise, do you believe that people should be able to cruise without a mask while those who are not exempted are required to wear one (similar question for a vaccination requirement)?

Medical exemption means for vaccination means the subject is exempt from vaccination. You have said you wish EVERYONE to be vaccinated so I questioned your wishes and I still do.

Regarding mask exemption, the law in most places, including the flags under which cruises sail makes provision for mask exemption. Private companies are free to deny service to the mask exempt and I would choose to wear a mask if a cruise company insists on it. Whether I agree with it is a different question. I believe that it makes good business sense and is good pr but I also believe it is pointless from a scientific basis, especially considering the latest Danish Controlled randomized trials of 5000 people, undisclosed by msm .

https://fee.org/articles/new-danish-study-finds-masks-don-t-protect-wearers-from-covid-infection/

[gkbiiii]

On 11/25/2020 at 12:34 PM, sidari said:

DC ... Possibly against Human Rights as well.

Illegals have no such right, but deportation: we have laws for a reason.

[Hlitner]

Some anti-vaxers continue to push their fantasy but they are sadly mistaken on several issues.  Mandatory vaccines as the price of admission to a country, cruise line, airline, school, or even some employers is old hat.  Years ago you could not go anywhere without a smallpox vaccination certificate.  Until very recently there were still some countries requiring an official Yellow Fever Vaccination Certificate (actually a small booklet).  Even today many school systems require certain vaccinations.  

 

As to employers, this is where it gets to be an interesting legal issue.  But many healthcare facilities require employees to have annual flu shots, MMR shots, and current DTap. 

 

Anti-vaxers need to understand that each country is able to set their own entry standards and you can be sure that most will be requiring proof of a current COVID vaccination.  There is no argument, no debate, no whining allowed.  You have the shot or you do not get into the country!  As to cruise lines they will likely be forced by the CDC to require COVID vaccinations for any cruise that calls at a US port.  I would expect the same from Canada, most Asian countries and the EU.  If you don't want to get the vaccine you can snuggle at home :).

 

Hank

[Geobugs]

My son has been to over 30 countries, on five continents.  Also a dozen cruises.  Never had a single vaccination.  My wife has been to just about the same number of countries, never been vaccinated.  Keep your poison to yourself, thank you very much.

 

If you don't want to cruise with people un-vaccinated, then you can snuggle at home.

[sidari]

30 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Some anti-vaxers continue to push their fantasy but they are sadly mistaken on several issues.  Mandatory vaccines as the price of admission to a country, cruise line, airline, school, or even some employers is old hat.  Years ago you could not go anywhere without a smallpox vaccination certificate.  Until very recently there were still some countries requiring an official Yellow Fever Vaccination Certificate (actually a small booklet).  Even today many school systems require certain vaccinations.  

 

As to employers, this is where it gets to be an interesting legal issue.  But many healthcare facilities require employees to have annual flu shots, MMR shots, and current DTap. 

 

Anti-vaxers need to understand that each country is able to set their own entry standards and you can be sure that most will be requiring proof of a current COVID vaccination.  There is no argument, no debate, no whining allowed.  You have the shot or you do not get into the country!  As to cruise lines they will likely be forced by the CDC to require COVID vaccinations for any cruise that calls at a US port.  I would expect the same from Canada, most Asian countries and the EU.  If you don't want to get the vaccine you can snuggle at home :).

 

Hank

Hank ... Why should people be forced to have a vaccine that has not been tested in the correct way, most vaccines and subsequent testing takes many years with reports made constantly and side effects made known over those many years.

Yet you call anyone who decides or refuses the vaccines which have been cobbled together in less than six months with little to no correct testing procedures Anti Vaxxers! I call them sensible people who are not prepared to just accept something thrown together in order to fill the pockets of Governments and the Big Pharma companies.

Current rates of deaths are less than 1%, with our Immune systems having a 99% or more chance of survival.

For those wanting to be the Guinea Pigs by all means do so but I am personally prepared to wait to see how many if any fall by the wayside in the next two years at least.

if Countries, Airlines, Cruise Lines and others decide they will not let anyone travel who has the free will to decline these vaccines then so be it, I will be quite happy to keep my money.

Edited November 30, 2020 by sidari

[Geobugs]

The Facts concerning Covid-19 Vaccinations according to CNBC.

Covid-19 vaccines require two doses and patients will come back for a second dose because of potentially unpleasant side effects after the first shot.

Those side effects include high fever, body aches, bad headaches, daylong exhaustion and other symptoms after receiving the shots. The symptoms were uncomfortable, and at times intense, the participants said they often went away after a day.

Moderna and Pfizer acknowledged that their vaccines could induce side effects that are similar to symptoms associated with Covid-19, such as muscle pain, chills and headache.

A Moderna trial volunteer experienced "headache, muscle ache, fatigue, nausea" as a result. But that wasn't the worst of it. Haydon also vomited and fainted and eventually admitted himself to urgent care. These adverse side effects see it as a "small price to pay" for the protection the vaccine can offer.