Will vaccines now be required?

[cl.klink]

2 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Ok, here's my perspective. This will be from the perspective of a US passenger.  I don't see  Northern European, Mediterranean.  Asian,  South American or South Pacific in the reasonable range of options for me in 2021.  If I'm going on any of these cruises I will spend some time pre-cruise or post cruise in these regions and I don't see these areas being anything close to back to normal in 2021.  I think there will still be lockdowns, quarantines and restricted travel in these regions.  I want to get off the ship and explore on my own and I think international travel will be restricted through 2021.  I do see the Caribbean opening up in 2021 and even if the region doesn't open in 2021 for unescorted tours, I'm ok just staying on the ship in the Caribbean.  I may take a shorter 7-day cruise before  November 2021, but I'll be booking a longer 10 -12 day cruise in November.

 

So that's my plan. 🙂

 

Good to know your thoughts.  Thanks,

 

- Joel

[sanger727]

34 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

Your life; your decisions.  But I have to say that in Mexico everything is anything but normal.  They may have acted like normal, in the sense of no Covid precautions, but Mexico itself is a very dangerous place, Covid-wise.  To think they disregarded protective practices is even more disturbing.  I'm glad for you that you came back healthy.  For me, I would rather go on a cruise taking a lot of precautions than stay at a resort where they are apparently taking none.

 

COVID-19 in Mexico - COVID-19 Very High - Level 4: COVID-19 Very High - Travel Health Notices | Travelers' Health | CDC

really??? Is anywhere ‘normal’ right now? Of course not. I made the decision that was right for me given the situation I’m in right now. My state is out of control with Covid. My county is red verging on purple. My coworkers that I’m around all day every day are coming down with Covid left and right. In my judgement, a vacation where I spent 90% of my time outside and separated from everyone else was no more danger than being stuck in a building all day where in the last week, 3 people I see regularly (1 I share an office with) caught Covid. Life isn’t safe right now. I agree that if I was able to sit at home and work from home and barely venture out that a trip to Mexico would have been a high risk activity. My life is a high risk activity right now. Less worried about it.

Edited December 9, 2020 by sanger727

[LGW59]

37 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

really??? Is anywhere ‘normal’ right now? Of course not. I made the decision that was right for me given the situation I’m in right now. My state is out of control with Covid. My county is red verging on purple. My coworkers that I’m around all day every day are coming down with Covid left and right. In my judgement, a vacation where I spent 90% of my time outside and separated from everyone else was no more danger than being stuck in a building all day where in the last week, 3 people I see regularly (1 I share an office with) caught Covid. Life isn’t safe right now. I agree that if I was able to sit at home and work from home and barely venture out that a trip to Mexico would have been a high risk activity. My life is a high risk activity right now. Less worried about it.

Sounds like you took all the right precautions on your vacation!  Would I have done that no, but that is just me, not a judgment in any way shape or form.  I am fortunate that I can work from home 100% of the time, have been doing so for 9 months now and will be for the foreseeable future.  I do have to ask though, your company has you share an office with another individual???  That is just not right to me.  

[diamondintn]

1 hour ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Ok, here's my perspective. I'm assuming that I will be vaccinated by Spring 2021.  This will be from the perspective of a US passenger.  I don't see  Northern European, Mediterranean.  Asian,  South American or South Pacific in the reasonable range of options for me in 2021.  If I'm going on any of these cruises I will spend some time pre-cruise or post cruise in these regions and I don't see these areas being anything close to back to normal in 2021.  I think there will still be lockdowns, quarantines and restricted travel in these regions.  I want to get off the ship and explore on my own and I think international travel will be restricted through 2021.  I do see the Caribbean opening up in 2021 and even if the region doesn't open in 2021 for unescorted tours, I'm ok just staying on the ship in the Caribbean.  I may take a shorter 7-day cruise before  November 2021, but I'll be booking a longer 10 -12 day cruise in November.

 

So that's my plan. 🙂

I hope you  are right, pee. I have a 10 night ultimate Caribbean that I lifted and shifted to late in March 2022. You gotta go too, you owe me a plastic straw!

[Ozzmund]

2 hours ago, cl.klink said:

 

Right .. so .. gut check:  Even granting the uncertainties and the pros and cons and fears and upsets ... and granting that there will remain some non-zero risk of getting coronavirus infection and getting COVID for a while (as you note) ... what's a seat of the pants prediction as to when we can expect not just some cruises but some amount of free port time and some opening up the cruise experience?  If the vaccines start rolling out now / soonish, with all the issues that some have already taken the time to spell out, do we think that there will be not just some cruises, but a liberalization of the cruising experience some, starting in 6 months (probably too soon), 5 years (probably too late), 1 year (possible but perhaps still too optimistic)?  What are some non-herperbolic, non-pollyana-ish, non-doomsday-ish, sober predictions?

 

- Joel

For us, early Summer of 2022 would be our prediction.

There certainly will be cruises before then, but would they be cruises we would want to take? Not sure.

Limiting shore excursions to cruise sponsored offerings is a deal breaker for us.

I hope I am wrong and that things open up earlier, but if I was at a sports book in Las Vegas and had to pick a date, I would pick June 1, 2022

[LGW59]

2 minutes ago, Ozzmund said:

For us, early Summer of 2022 would be our prediction.

There certainly will be cruises before then, but would they be cruises we would want to take? Not sure.

Limiting shore excursions to cruise sponsored offerings is a deal breaker for us.

I hope I am wrong and that things open up earlier, but if I was at a sports book in Las Vegas and had to pick a date, I would pick June 1, 2022

I am with you!  Have an Aug 28 2021 booked, Greek Isles, Turkey, Barcelona, I sorta kinda think it will sail, but if it does, most likely with the CC excursions only.  Just don't want to do that with this itinerary, so so much more we can see and learn on our own.

[cl.klink]

48 minutes ago, Ozzmund said:

For us, early Summer of 2022 would be our prediction.

There certainly will be cruises before then, but would they be cruises we would want to take? Not sure.

Limiting shore excursions to cruise sponsored offerings is a deal breaker for us.

I hope I am wrong and that things open up earlier, but if I was at a sports book in Las Vegas and had to pick a date, I would pick June 1, 2022

 

Thanks!

- Joel

[nocl]

On 12/7/2020 at 11:50 AM, TeeRick said:

It is just puzzling to me that on these CC threads and in society in general we still have continuous discussions about COVID vs Flu.   A virus competition.  The Super Bowl of Respiratory viruses.  Both are very bad and can infect and kill a lot of people.  Those that think the SARS-CoV-2 is no worse than Influenza virus generally are not paying much attention to the overwhelming data.  But just be patient!  A strain of Influenza could certainly arise at any time that could even be more deadly than COVID.  So best to not justify your actions (or inactions) by trying to prove to everybody that COVID is no worse than Flu.  

 

Of course if it wasn't a comparison to the flu, it be something else.  It is all just a way for someone to convince themselves that their choice is correct.  If they weren't using the its just the flu comparison it would another just as irrelevant.

[LGW59]

9 minutes ago, nocl said:

Of course if it wasn't a comparison to the flu, it be something else.  It is all just a way for someone to convince themselves that their choice is correct.  If they weren't using the its just the flu comparison it would another just as irrelevant.

I just continue to follow the experts, some on here and others in US lexicon, just hate to say the name of those, it evokes such vitriol, so I will just say, keep up the great work Dr. F and others, we need you!

[sanger727]

9 hours ago, LGW59 said:

Sounds like you took all the right precautions on your vacation!  Would I have done that no, but that is just me, not a judgment in any way shape or form.  I am fortunate that I can work from home 100% of the time, have been doing so for 9 months now and will be for the foreseeable future.  I do have to ask though, your company has you share an office with another individual???  That is just not right to me.  

it’s an old building and very few offices are small Enough for one person. There are 4 people in my office. But that’s the same throughout the building. Most rooms are large enough for 4-6 desks. 

[upwarduk]

IMO The vaccine does need to be a requirement before boarding in the future.

I’ve copied the following from another thread( posted by me).

UK.

“V day yesterday (DH birthday will be forever remembered) but unfortunately the vulnerable are down the list unless living in a care home.

1) Over 80’s and Care home residents

2) NHS and Care staff

3) over 75’s and vulnerable

4) over 70’s etc etc

 

I fit into section 3 on both counts, so I’m not expecting to be called this side of Christmas, so am not booking a cruise yet!”

[d9704011]

40 minutes ago, upwarduk said:

IMO The vaccine does need to be a requirement before boarding in the future.

Maybe, although it could be well into the future.

 

How does the remainder of your post support your hypothesis in any way or did you just want to throw something out there then copy and paste something else that’s seemingly unrelated?

[nomad098]

Warning after two NHS workers suffer allergic reaction to Covid-19 jab

 

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/12/09/warning-after-allergic-reactions-from-covid-19-jab/

 

No surprise, as the phase III trials were on a limited number of people, population studies will throw up anomalies like this one.

 

This then puts a crimp in the idea of vaccinated cruises if to many people fall into the unable to vaccinate category

 

Hopefully the non mRNA vaccines will not have the same issues. 

[d9704011]

14 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

Warning after two NHS workers suffer allergic reaction to Covid-19 jab

 

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/12/09/warning-after-allergic-reactions-from-covid-19-jab/

 

No surprise, as the phase III trials were on a limited number of people, population studies will throw up anomalies like this one.

 

This then puts a crimp in the idea of vaccinated cruises if to many people fall into the unable to vaccinate category

 

Hopefully the non mRNA vaccines will not have the same issues. 

Perhaps you could focus a bit more on the possibility that vaccinating people with pre-existing allergy issues (to the extent they carry epipens) may pose some difficulties rather than how this story may impact on future cruises.  I understand this is a cruise forum but you’ve spent a lot of time posting about vaccines and vaccination in a general sense.

[nomad098]

22 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

Perhaps you could focus a bit more on the possibility that vaccinating people with pre-existing allergy issues (to the extent they carry epipens) may pose some difficulties rather than how this story may impact on future cruises.  I understand this is a cruise forum but you’ve spent a lot of time posting about vaccines and vaccination in a general sense.

 

Did I miss read the title of the thread?

 

Critical mass of vaccination or vaccinated cruises are not a possibility or extremely limiting if a significant proportion of the customers are unable to vaccinate. My hope is that other platforms will enable cruising but this is not a certainty.

 

Vaccines and vaccination in a general sense are at present having a huge impact on cruising so a fair subject for conversation

 

More importantly on what subjects I choose to post about or how many times I post or choose to just read passively is none of anybody's business other than the forums moderators. 

 

Some people might find your post offensive but personally I think it's just sad that you think you can decide on what others should and should not post about.   

 

 

 

[sanger727]

18 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

 

Critical mass of vaccination or vaccinated cruises are not a possibility or extremely limiting if a significant proportion of the customers are unable to vaccinate. My hope is that other platforms will enable cruising but this is not a certainty.

 

 

From what I've read it appears they had tested the vaccines on 40,000-ish people without running into a major allergy issue. Curious how many people they have vaccinated so far in the UK. If it's ends up running at a rate of 2 out of 1,000 or 10,000 that have an allergy that prohibits vaccination, that's hardly a "significant proportion" of any population. Think it's still too soon to call on whether or not that would be a hindrance to attaining herd immunity and therefore drastically reducing covid transmission and getting us to the "critical mass" of the thread topic.

[mickey89]

Back to the original question - is a vaccine a pre-requisite to cruise ?

 

That won't happen unless fully supported by Governments. In the UK the Government has said that they will NOT make vaccines mandatory.  I will definitely be inline when I am called and would encourage everyone else to do the same but would fall short of making it compulsory.

[TeeRick]

1 hour ago, nomad098 said:

Warning after two NHS workers suffer allergic reaction to Covid-19 jab

 

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/12/09/warning-after-allergic-reactions-from-covid-19-jab/

 

No surprise, as the phase III trials were on a limited number of people, population studies will throw up anomalies like this one.

 

This then puts a crimp in the idea of vaccinated cruises if to many people fall into the unable to vaccinate category

 

Hopefully the non mRNA vaccines will not have the same issues. 

It is good that you recognize this as an anomaly.  There will be other unexpected reactions for sure as each vaccine is administered to millions in a global effort.  So how many people in the general population have such a history of strong allergic reactions that they have to carry an Epipen?  The ones that do will now know not to get vaccinated with this particular type of vaccine.  You can estimate this by the number of prescriptions per year of Epipens.  This gives a number of about 0.7% in one USA study I came across.  And the risk is skewed to younger children.   I'm sure this will be looked at in some detail starting immediately.  It is possible that people with such strong allergic reactions were excluded based on clinical trial criteria but that is only a guess on my part.  Not sure if this is a significant problem for cruising as you express even if vaccines are required for now.  These folks just won't cruise I imagine if they cannot get vaccinated.  But not a huge number.  Unfortunate for them but not a big issue for cruising I think.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5107144/

 

[nomad098]

4 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

From what I've read it appears they had tested the vaccines on 40,000-ish people without running into a major allergy issue. Curious how many people they have vaccinated so far in the UK. If it's ends up running at a rate of 2 out of 1,000 or 10,000 that have an allergy that prohibits vaccination, that's hardly a "significant proportion" of any population. Think it's still too soon to call on whether or not that would be a hindrance to attaining herd immunity and therefore drastically reducing covid transmission and getting us to the "critical mass" of the thread topic.

 

To be honest I have heard figures of between 4000-6000 people were vaccinated but I have a feeling those numbers are way to low. I don't think there has been an official figure yet. 

 

I suppose anomalies were bound to happen on a population scale when most of the previous recipients were fit and healthy mainly within certain age groups.

 

I think it will be a cumulative effect of people not being able to take the Pfizer vaccine that could stop "critical mass" not any single group this is why we need the other vaccines to come online otherwise it could push back and back the start of cruising.

[nomad098]

7 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

It is good that you recognize this as an anomaly.  There will be other unexpected reactions for sure as each vaccine is administered to millions in a global effort.  So how many people in the general population have such a history of strong allergic reactions that they have to carry an Epipen?  The ones that do will now know not to get vaccinated with this particular type of vaccine.  You can estimate this by the number of prescriptions per year of Epipens.  This gives a number of about 0.7% in one USA study I came across.  And the risk is skewed to younger children.   I'm sure this will be looked at in some detail starting immediately.  It is possible that people with such strong allergic reactions were excluded based on clinical trial criteria but that is only a guess on my part.  Not sure if this is a significant problem for cruising as you express even if vaccines are required for now.  These folks just won't cruise I imagine if they cannot get vaccinated.  But not a huge number.  Unfortunate for them but not a big issue for cruising I think.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5107144/

 

 

As I posted earlier I don't think any one reason for not being able to be vaccinated will impact on vaccinated cruise only or reach critical mass I think it will be a cumulative effect.

 

If 0.7% use an epipen the chances are their families will choose a different vacation to cruising.

 

There is a list of people who can not have the Pfizer vaccine at the moment and that does not just impact them but those around them when it comes to choosing a vacation, as other vaccines come online hopefully this will change.

 

 

[Fouremco]

40 minutes ago, mickey89 said:

Back to the original question - is a vaccine a pre-requisite to cruise ?

 

That won't happen unless fully supported by Governments. In the UK the Government has said that they will NOT make vaccines mandatory.  I will definitely be inline when I am called and would encourage everyone else to do the same but would fall short of making it compulsory.

I agree that most governments will not make COVID-19 vaccinations mandatory, but I think that there's a very good chance that cruise lines will make it a requirement, with or without the full support of governments. The failure of the Singapore "cruise to nowhere" will simply add impetus to the introduction of the requirement.

[mickey89]

Without Government support there will be no trustworthy evidence of vaccination. There will be no certificate of immunisation digital or otherwise so where's the proof to show to the cruiseline.  Everyone knows its easy to obtain forgeries anyway, so it will be worthless and the cruiselines know this.... so is a non-starter.

[nomad098]

3 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

I agree that most governments will not make COVID-19 vaccinations mandatory, but I think that there's a very good chance that cruise lines will make it a requirement, with or without the full support of governments. The failure of the Singapore "cruise to nowhere" will simply add impetus to the introduction of the requirement.

 

I don't think countries should make in mandatory but make vaccination a requirement for entry into any country mandatory so even on a cruise to nowhere you would require a vaccine. It's a simpler process that negates some of the legal issues.

[Arizona Wildcat]

3 hours ago, nomad098 said:

Warning after two NHS workers suffer allergic reaction to Covid-19 jab

 

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/12/09/warning-after-allergic-reactions-from-covid-19-jab/

 

No surprise, as the phase III trials were on a limited number of people, population studies will throw up anomalies like this one.

 

This then puts a crimp in the idea of vaccinated cruises if to many people fall into the unable to vaccinate category

 

Hopefully the non mRNA vaccines will not have the same issues. 

A couple comments.  The Pfizer vaccine was testing using a very large group.  Not small as you suggest.  There were several moderate reactions to vaccination reported by Pfizer.

The news reporting today noted the caution for those with allergies - but gave absolutely no details.  Certainly seems we need more info before passing judgment.

We all know there are negative reactions to drugs and vaccines.  The point should be the risk is much less than the reward.  The polio vaccine caused a few cases of polio, but reduced deaths from 16K a year to almost zero.  Does that mean the vaccine should not have been used?  Tough question as humanity in general was positively served by vaccination; while a few were indeed harmed.

[yorky]

4 hours ago, nomad098 said:

Warning after two NHS workers suffer allergic reaction to Covid-19 jab

 

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/12/09/warning-after-allergic-reactions-from-covid-19-jab/

 

No surprise, as the phase III trials were on a limited number of people, population studies will throw up anomalies like this one.

 

This then puts a crimp in the idea of vaccinated cruises if to many people fall into the unable to vaccinate category

 

Hopefully the non mRNA vaccines will not have the same issues. 

I honestly don’t see this as an issue, having the flue vac they ask you if you have had allergic reactions in the past, it’s all pretty standard. I don’t believe for a minute that there will be large scale issues with any of the vaccines.