Are we seeing the first signs of changes for the future and were some lines prescient with respect to the future post COVID?

[Roger88]

I mean, this is how it will work in my opinion. First we get first millions of people vaccinated, then we have them connect with those who haven't vaccinated and see what happens. Then we have another vaccination wave and so on. Until we finally manage to coupe the situation and localize the sick people. I mean just look at China right now. As if nothing ever happened there

[Toofarfromthesea]

17 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

Doesn’t so much put me in a minority group as it does put me in a group where more than 70% of folks on any one of their ships at any time are repeat customers (interestingly, many of who WERE regulars on Celebrity, HAL and Princess). 

Your “percentage” math is a touch irrelevant and taken out of context. Remember that Oceania (and other premium/luxury lines) only want/need to have a few smaller ships each and, for example, the demand (pre-Covid) for O had two new 1200 passenger ships on order. 
 

And, as regards where to post on CC, please be reminded that many CC visitors are newbies often asking “which line for me” only to often hear “line XYZ has the lowest cabin prices” (as if that’s all that matters).
 

 

In fact (while we are at it), I wish more folks would do the research about crewed yacht charters. Want an ocean vacation for 8+\- family/friends? Not as expensive as you may think (and IMO really the only way to experience the best that the Caribbean has to offer).

it is one thing to say, "this is how I like to cruise" and quite another to say "I don't understand why everyone doesn't cruise the way I do" and they are wasting their money.  People are different, have different values, and make their choices accordingly.  

Some like adventure cruises

 

Some like to do brief looks at foreign places

 

Some like to treat it like an all-inclusive at sea

 

Some like a small ultra luxury cruise with very limited onboard activities

 

Some like a cruise on a big boisterous ship with loads of onboard activities

 

Some like a cruise where loads of onboard activities are available but like to be able to retreat to a quit upscale place when they want

 

it is not a one-size fits all world.  You like Oceania because the things it DOESN'T have are things you don't care about.  But despite your Oceania evangelism, many people WANT the things that Oceania doesn't have.

[Roger88]

When I cruise, I prefer to stay away from people. To me its a way to escape this dirty, scarry world. Enjoy myself watching the sun dawn and sunset, get a little tipsy and just walk around thinking of things. I really wish I will have a chance to enjoy life anywhere in the future 

[Toofarfromthesea]

2 minutes ago, Roger88 said:

 . .. I really wish I will have a chance to enjoy life anywhere in the future 

For me, the key to enjoying life is to focus on the enjoyable things I CAN do, and not worry or give a second thought to the things I CAN'T do.  So even in the midst of a pandemic I enjoy life.  We don't get that much life and I intend to enjoy all of it.  

[sverigecruiser]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

When we are in the YC on MSC ships it has zero impact on those not in the YC as they continue to do their own thing.

 

It has impact on them because the forward topdeck is not available for them!

 

People want different things and I'm sure that many should like to book a cheap cabin and still have access to the forward topdeck but they can't on MSCs ships with Yacht Club.

 

   

[MamaFej]

2 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

it is one thing to say, "this is how I like to cruise" and quite another to say "I don't understand why everyone doesn't cruise the way I do" and they are wasting their money.  People are different, have different values, and make their choices accordingly.  

Let's face it; if a large percentage of the cruising population were to insist on sailing only one line, the prices on that line would become so prohibitive that most would be left without a line to sail. 

 

It makes far more sense to have a variety of lines and experiences for a variety of cruisers, none of whom should have to justify their perfectly reasonable preferences to anyone else. 

[SelectSys]

13 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

It would be very interesting to see a comparison of the discrete financial information

 

I was hoping they would have broken it out for their investors, but no.  Too many companies sweep too many things under a single rug imho.

 

13 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

Wouldn’t it be interesting if this all resulted in the (re)appearance of something (money-in-hand) akin to Oceania and Regent’s original Prestige Cruise Holdings and “hasta la bye bye” to their NCL relationship?

 

Certainly the bankers would like this in terms of fees collected.  It could be that pieces of many companies get sold to either "unlock value" or provide funds for the core operating unit(s).  Activist investors might foment these kind of changes in the lines as well.

[cruisemom42]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

To be really blunt, I do not care if a ship is "classless" (to use your term) or not!  If those in the higher prices suites on Celebrity choose to spend part of their evening in Michael's it has no impact on my evening or options.  When we are in the YC on MSC ships it has zero impact on those not in the YC as they continue to do their own thing.

 

I can understand most of your argument regarding those who want "better" amenities coupled with more choice of entertainment and venues aboard ship.

 

Where I disagree with you is that there is "no impact" on other passengers when parts of the ship are off limits to them. There are a considerable number of loyal Celebrity cruisers who have posted their displeasure on the Celebrity board regarding the somewhat recent change that limits access to one of the only (or perhaps the only) area from which one has front-facing views to those in certain categories of accommodations. 

 

Do you really not have any issue with that?  Or with prime deck space that was once available to all that is now only available to suite guests?  

 

Pretty soon the "steerage" passengers may not even have access to a pool and probably will have to pay extra to eat anywhere other than the buffet, if this keeps up!  (This is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but also would not be out of the realm of possibility....)

 

Edited to add:  I see from sverigecruiser's post above that it is not only Celebrity but also MSC that has blocked this area to "non-suite" customers. So....one should go on a cruise without the ability to look at the ocean and where one is headed, which is one of the great pleasures of being at sea?

Edited January 7, 2021 by cruisemom42

[Toofarfromthesea]

2 hours ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

It has impact on them because the forward topdeck is not available for them!

 

People want different things and I'm sure that many should like to book a cheap cabin and still have access to the forward topdeck but they can't on MSCs ships with Yacht Club.

 

   

But they have access to a forward lounge where the differences are that it isn't the top deck and it is more crowded because it IS open to "the cheap cabins".  

You can't order meatloaf and then complain about not having access to filet mignon.

[cruisemom42]

4 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

You can't order meatloaf and then complain about not having access to filet mignon.

 

But you can complain when filet mignon used to be included and now it is not. 

[ontheweb]

20 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

But you can complain when filet mignon used to be included and now it is not. 

You can, but the complaint will most likely not be taken seriously. Not that I disagree with you, but just trying to be factual.

[Flatbush Flyer]

3 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

it is one thing to say, "this is how I like to cruise" and quite another to say "I don't understand why everyone doesn't cruise the way I do" and they are wasting their money.  People are different, have different values, and make their choices accordingly.  

Some like adventure cruises

 

Some like to do brief looks at foreign places

 

Some like to treat it like an all-inclusive at sea

 

Some like a small ultra luxury cruise with very limited onboard activities

 

Some like a cruise on a big boisterous ship with loads of onboard activities

 

Some like a cruise where loads of onboard activities are available but like to be able to retreat to a quit upscale place when they want

 

it is not a one-size fits all world.  You like Oceania because the things it DOESN'T have are things you don't care about.  But despite your Oceania evangelism, many people WANT the things that Oceania doesn't have.

Sorry but you (and a few others on this thread) are totally missing my point.

 

I try to provide folks (including newbies), who share the same/similar cruise interests/preferences as we do, information regarding the financial reality of the poorly chosen names for the cruise industry segments that cater to those preferences.

Sadly, the label “premium” (and, to a worse degree, “luxury”) erroneously suggests “more expensive” than the “mass market.” And, as many have attested to here on CC, that is not necessarily true - particularly in terms of the “net daily cost” of longer, intercontinental cruises with desired inclusive amenities.

 

And in this process, I share examples of a PREFERRED line (not to be confused with “loyalty” which should/does for me apply only to interpersonal relationships) which I am convinced will appeal to that segment of the cruise population that shares the same preferences as do I including wanting “the most bang for their buck.”

 

It was trusted/respected cruise specialist travel agents, other travel/commercial maritime experts and numerous veteran cruisers who educated me about “premium” cruising and the very specific niche formula adopted by FDR in creating my own now PREFERRED line. And I will continue to “pay it forward” for folks who are looking for THEIR version of a “better cruise experience.”

 

So, yet again, for those folks who are looking for the same type of experience/value discovered by the several hundred thousand regular/repeat cruisers who prefer premium lines (and not just Oceania), don’t drink any of the KoolAid that suggests ALL “premium” (and even “luxury”) itineraries are “too expensive” and/or only are appealing to one age demographic or whatever other overgeneralized misinformation one finds on CC.

[SelectSys]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

Pretty soon the "steerage" passengers may not even have access to a pool and probably will have to pay extra to eat anywhere other than the buffet, if this keeps up!  (This is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but also would not be out of the realm of possibility....)

 

It really seems that the cruise lines are following the same path as the airlines.  Before COVID, the drive towards basic economy, no seat pitch, no bags, etc led to extreme stratification of the onboard experience in many of the major airlines.  For me, it was easy to be a coach passenger when seat pitch was 32-33" in coach.  Fly 8-10 hours at 30" and it's way worse if you are tall.

 

I would expect more bemoaning of the "good old days" before all is said and done!   The unfortunate thing is that the market is splitting strongly between high and low end.  The middle is being left behind and those with modest budgets may see the experience continue to diminish.  

Edited January 7, 2021 by SelectSys

[Hlitner]

We have spent plenty of time on Celebrity (not generally in suites).  At one time Michael's was a lounge open to all and most of the time the venue was empty.   Most cruisers could not even find Michaels (on the S Class ships) much less have a desire to go into a generally empty lounge.  So they set it aside for the bigger suites and those in the Zenith category.  As to reserving a small part of deck space, I can live with that since those folks are paying a lot more per passenger day then moi.  On NCL (with their Haven Suite area) and MSC (Yacht Club Area) and Cunard (grill suite area) folks have paid for that access and the ships were designed with that in mind.  One can go on Princess where anyone can buy their way into the Sanctuary (for over $40 per day) and I do not see that as much different.  On most lines anyone can buy their way into alternative dining venues on a daily basis while suites buy their way into some areas with a large lump sum payment.  If it bothers a person that they do not have access to certain venues then they too can spend the bigger bucks for access.   Even on HAL (where they do less for suites then most) there is the Neptune Lounge (for only the most expensive suites) and access to the Pinnacle for breakfast for the suites.  HAL also lets folks buy into "Club Orange" where they get access to a dedicated dining section and a few other perks.

 

One could look at this a different way.  Should a person paying $80 per passenger day for the smallest inside cabin have the same amenities and access to folks paying $700 a day for a suite?  or should a person be able to pay McDonalds prices to get access to the French Laundry?    In the interests of full disclosure DW and I do not generally book expensive suites (with MSC being an exception) so we are not pleading our own case.  I guess I am just sick of all this "class envy" that seems to  be sweeping our society.  We are talking capitalism where money does talk.  If you want more or better you expect to pay more.

 

Hank

[Hlitner]

53 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

But you can complain when filet mignon used to be included and now it is not. 

Ahhh  but you can still get filet mignon (or better) if you are willing to pay extra.  But how about the folks who are satisfied with hamburger if they can get a low price on the cheapest inside cabin?  Perhaps they do not even like steak.  It is about choices.  I know you love Rome and I know you do not  choose to stay in a cheap dumpy hotel.  You carefully choose the places you like and pay the price.  If you want a gourmet dinner in Rome you know where to go and will pay more then if you chose a low end trattoria.  I think the mass market lines are simply trying to give folks a similar opportunity.  Those on a tight budget (or who do not like spending money) can cruise for price x.  Those who want a better cabin, better food, and more amenities can choose to pay 2X.  Nothing wrong with choices.

 

Hank

[SelectSys]

3 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I guess I am just sick of all this "class envy" that seems to  be sweeping our society.  We are talking capitalism where money does talk.

 

You better go see the doctor as more is on the way along with a new caste system to divide the spoils of redistribution efforts.

 

Have you ever explained any of our foolishness to Mexicans in PV?  They must really scratch their heads and get a puzzled look on their faces.

[Hlitner]

7 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

 

You better go see the doctor as more is on the way along with a new caste system to divide the spoils of redistribution efforts.

 

Have you ever explained any of our foolishness to Mexicans in PV?  They must really scratch their heads and get a puzzled look on their faces.

One reason we love living in PV (part of the year) is that politics is not the main topic of conversation.  Here it is more about "where have you eaten that is good,"  or "who has a decent band?"  Call it escapism but that is what we seek.  The current topic for DW and me is "where do you want to eat tonight?"   And yes, all of our favorite restaurants are open (inside and out).  COVID is here too, but most of us are trying to deal with it using common sense, social distancing, and some mask wearing.  It is really weird that we must come to Mexico to be treated like a grown up rather then have some hypocritical politician tell us what is best for us while they ignore their own rules.

 

As to what you call the caste system, most of those who preach that stuff are, in their own lives, relatively wealthy.  They simply want everyone else go grovel why they quietly live their decent lives.   I think if folks simply Google the wealthiest members of Congress they would be quite surprised.  

 

 

Hank

[Aquahound]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

There are a considerable number of loyal Celebrity cruisers who have posted their displeasure on the Celebrity board regarding the somewhat recent change that limits access to one of the only (or perhaps the only) area from which one has front-facing views to those in certain categories of accommodations. 

 

 

The lounge at the top, front of the ship on Celebrity is called the Sky Lounge (similar to HAL Crows Nest, but much nicer).  I haven't seen or heard anything that the Sky Lounge has been cut off to all but suite guests.  Are you sure you got that one right?  I will admit that if you are right, I will be disappointed.  The Sky Lounge is one of my favorite venues on X ships.

 

8 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

We have spent plenty of time on Celebrity (not generally in suites).  At one time Michael's was a lounge open to all and most of the time the venue was empty.   Most cruisers could not even find Michaels (on the S Class ships) much less have a desire to go into a generally empty lounge.  So they set it aside for the bigger suites and those in the Zenith category.  As to reserving a small part of deck space, I can live with that since those folks are paying a lot more per passenger day then moi.  On NCL (with their Haven Suite area) and MSC (Yacht Club Area) and Cunard (grill suite area) folks have paid for that access and the ships were designed with that in mind. 

 

When I cruised NCL Escape, I didn't even know where the Haven was, let alone missed whatever space it used up.  Silly me....I guess I should have felt like steerage. 😉😆

[cruisemom42]

17 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

One could look at this a different way.  Should a person paying $80 per passenger day for the smallest inside cabin have the same amenities and access to folks paying $700 a day for a suite?

 

I have two responses to that:

 

(1) Yes, why shouldn't they, if that is the way the business model was set up?  Rather than agree with you about people whining about rising costs, I submit that America has become a society that has gone from abhorring a class system (stuffy, old world, not democratic) to being obsessed with displays of wealth and privilege.

 

(2) Looking strictly at my own case, I am not the one and never will be the one paying $80 per day for a cabin. Because I do not choose inexpensive cruise lines and I do not choose inexpensive itineraries -- but most of all (and not through any "choice" I make) because I travel solo.  How would you feel if you and Mrs. Hlitner had to pay twice as much for each cruise you took?  Those suite splurges might be a lot less frequent.  It is rare that I can cruise on a line I like and on an itinerary of my choice for less than $300/day in an inside cabin. Yet I'm being scolded here for saying I need to pony up more money to get access to the good views, the quiet pool and the filet mignon?

 

[cruisemom42]

16 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

The lounge at the top, front of the ship on Celebrity is called the Sky Lounge (similar to HAL Crows Nest, but much nicer).  I haven't seen or heard anything that the Sky Lounge has been cut off to all but suite guests.  Are you sure you got that one right?  I will admit that if you are right, I will be disappointed.  The Sky Lounge is one of my favorite venues on X ships.

 

 

According to my understanding, on all Celebrity ships that have received the "Revolution" reboot, the only exterior forward-facing deck on the ship is now restricted to suite passengers only. I've read this on various posts on the Celebrity boards, and it is confirmed in this post by Turtles06, whose accuracy I would certainly trust:

 

 

[Aquahound]

6 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

According to my understanding, on all Celebrity ships that have received the "Revolution" reboot, the only exterior forward-facing deck on the ship is now restricted to suite passengers only. I've read this on various posts on the Celebrity boards, and it is confirmed in this post by Turtles06, whose accuracy I would certainly trust:

 

 

Oh, ok.  You're talking about a forward outdoor deck then.  I might walk to an area like that once or twice if I'm wandering, so I don't really care about that change.  I'm relieved it's not the Sky Lounge.  

[SelectSys]

11 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

One reason we love living in PV (part of the year) is that is not the main topic of conversation.  Here it is more about "where have you eaten that is good,"  or "who has a decent band?"  Call it escapism but that is what we seek. 

 

Sounds great!  My Mexico trips are almost always under a week in length and often times involves both family and friends.  Sometimes relaxing and sometimes not.  Real escapism, hardly ever.  While not that often, I sometimes engage with people when to help them understand our foolishness.  

 

27 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

It is really weird that we must come to Mexico to be treated like a grown up rather then have some hypocritical politician tell us what is best for us while they ignore their own rules.

 

True statement!  

 

[SelectSys]

20 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

According to my understanding, on all Celebrity ships that have received the "Revolution" reboot, the only exterior forward-facing deck on the ship is now restricted to suite passengers only

 

Is the bow area closed off to passengers at all times?  It seems on the deck plans that this space is available to take a peek forward at least some of the time.  This is probably not what you were thinking about in terms of a place to sit out in a somewhat sheltered area.

[Flatbush Flyer]

7 hours ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

.... but it’s those who continually talk down on others’ choices who take it too far. It screams insecurity. 

Self-reflection is a good thing. But, I’m betting you are not all that insecure. Have an excellent new year!

[Toofarfromthesea]

3 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

But you can complain when filet mignon used to be included and now it is not. 

 

Not if you know about it beforehand.  No one is vested in their prior experience.  Companies are free to change their product and if you knowingly buy the new product then complaining about it not being the old product just comes out as bitterness.

And the fact that you choose to cruise solo is completely irrelevant.