Looking at cruises in early 2022 - Vaccine required?

[KirkNC]

18 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I want to address your post with some facts and also personal opinion from a person that spent most of his adult life in the healthcare industry.   So lets start by forgetting these ridiculous comparisons to things like being gay or Jewish.  COVID and vaccines are health issues and COVID is a highly contagious disease (being gay or Jewish is not contagious).  I agree with you to the extent that I do not want to see my government mandate or force folks to get a vaccine!  But otherwise you and I disagree on many things.   COVID is a very serious disease that has killed over 560,000 Americans in a year.  Show me another contagious disease that has done that in the last few decades.   COVID has also left more then 10 times that number (we still do not have a good number) with many different morbidities some of which are life shortening, life threatening, life altering,  etc.  I am talking about permanent lung damage, cardiac damage, neurological damage, kidney failure etc.  This part of COVID is often ignored by the press and also ignored by the anti-vax folks.  And those serious morbidities strike both the young and old.

 

That being said, if you do not want to get a vaccine I do believe that is your right.  On the other hand I also believe that any private business  or government also has the right to refuse you service if they decide to enforce their own vaccination requirement.  So if you decide to fly Qantas airlines to Australia and Qantas says "no vaccine no fly" and Australia says no vaccine no entry that is life.  You made your decision, and you must live the ramifications.   If cruise lines decide to mandate that all passengers have a COVID vaccine then it is your choice whether you want to meet that requirement and cruise.  By the way....many lines have already implemented this requirement.

 

I will also point out there is nothing new about vaccine requirements.  My generation had to have smallpox vaccinations, polio vaccinations, and certain other vaccinations to get into public school.  At one time folks needed a smallpox vaccination certificate to travel to many parts of the world.  Because of the worlds success with that vaccine we no longer have smallpox or need the that vaccine.   But even today, folks need a Yellow Fever vaccination certificate to travel to parts of the world.  

 

As to your "forced flu shots" I feel the same as I feel about COVID shots.  You should not be forced but I do think that businesses and governments can certainly require it as a requirement of entry.  There are some healthcare facilities that do require their staff to get flu shots..or they can get another job.  In simple terms you have the freedom to choose whether or not to get shots, but others should have the freedom to choose whether or not to offer you services based on that decision. 

 

Hank

Hank, some of your post during this pandemic have concerned me but this one is your best in a long time.

[kazu]

20 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I want to address your post with some facts and also personal opinion from a person that spent most of his adult life in the healthcare industry.   So lets start by forgetting these ridiculous comparisons to things like being gay or Jewish.  COVID and vaccines are health issues and COVID is a highly contagious disease (being gay or Jewish is not contagious).  I agree with you to the extent that I do not want to see my government mandate or force folks to get a vaccine!  But otherwise you and I disagree on many things.   COVID is a very serious disease that has killed over 560,000 Americans in a year.  Show me another contagious disease that has done that in the last few decades.   COVID has also left more then 10 times that number (we still do not have a good number) with many different morbidities some of which are life shortening, life threatening, life altering,  etc.  I am talking about permanent lung damage, cardiac damage, neurological damage, kidney failure etc.  This part of COVID is often ignored by the press and also ignored by the anti-vax folks.  And those serious morbidities strike both the young and old.

 

That being said, if you do not want to get a vaccine I do believe that is your right.  On the other hand I also believe that any private business  or government also has the right to refuse you service if they decide to enforce their own vaccination requirement.  So if you decide to fly Qantas airlines to Australia and Qantas says "no vaccine no fly" and Australia says no vaccine no entry that is life.  You made your decision, and you must live the ramifications.   If cruise lines decide to mandate that all passengers have a COVID vaccine then it is your choice whether you want to meet that requirement and cruise.  By the way....many lines have already implemented this requirement.

 

I will also point out there is nothing new about vaccine requirements.  My generation had to have smallpox vaccinations, polio vaccinations, and certain other vaccinations to get into public school.  At one time folks needed a smallpox vaccination certificate to travel to many parts of the world.  Because of the worlds success with that vaccine we no longer have smallpox or need the that vaccine.   But even today, folks need a Yellow Fever vaccination certificate to travel to parts of the world.  

 

As to your "forced flu shots" I feel the same as I feel about COVID shots.  You should not be forced but I do think that businesses and governments can certainly require it as a requirement of entry.  There are some healthcare facilities that do require their staff to get flu shots..or they can get another job.  In simple terms you have the freedom to choose whether or not to get shots, but others should have the freedom to choose whether or not to offer you services based on that decision. 

 

Hank

 

+1. 👍 

[nocl]

15 hours ago, Daniel A said:

I'm just curious.  How did they differentiate a relapse from a re-infection?

One method is to do genomic sequencing of the virus.  If they are different then you know it is a new infection. Even if they are the same strain (no major mutations) there are usually small differences that are handy in tracking virus history.

 

While it does not say in this case it appears that genomic sequencing was done since they did identify that most infections were of the same strain.

[Horizon chaser 1957]

On 4/1/2021 at 1:34 PM, Dothan1952 said:

My guess is those cruise lines not requiring vaccination will reverse course after they (or another non-vaccination requiring  line) sails and has a Covid outbreak. The economic impact and all the bad press will force their hand

Even without an outbreak, I suspect companies not requiring vaccination will reverse course IF

1) the CDC is allows those with mandatory vaccine policies to resume sailing sooner or with fewer restrictions than those that don’t, and/ or

2) if a significant portion of the cruising public chooses booking with lines that do over those that don’t.

No one wants their ships still at anchor and empty while the competition is full, sailing, and making money.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Horizon chaser 1957

[Horizon chaser 1957]

On 4/2/2021 at 12:05 PM, SumoCitrus said:

 

 

Does this seem arrogant to anyone else?

 

See if you're comfortable with these:

 

1. Being Jewish is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses Judaism has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

2. Being gay is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be gay has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

3. Being vegan is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be vegan has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

Of course you would not be. Now, please spare me the "but think about [other people/grandma/the vulnerable]" because those folks are getting vaccinated. If they are vaccinated, there is no risk to them - otherwise what's the point of the vaccine?

Does this seem arrogant? That depends entirely on whether you’re referring to the post you’re quoting, or your response to it.

None of your comparisons make much sense.

1) Being Jewish is NOT a choice, unless you take the huge step of turning from your faith, your heritage, and your history to  renounce being Jewish.

2) Being gay is absolutely NOT a choice, even if you believe in sending teenagers away to camps that ‘pray the gay out’. (It doesn’t work that way).

3) Being vegan IS a choice, and constantly involves facing the consequences of that choice. Not every restaurant has a vegan friendly menu, and no, you can’t go to all you can eat rib night. It goes with the territory, and yes, with the choice. All the Vegans I know, and dine out with, take that for granted. Restaurants are chosen accordingly.
 

As a fairer comparison, you have the right NOT to take a drivers test or provide the government with all the personal information and ability to track your movements that having a drivers license entails. However, that means you knowingly and deliberately  forfeit driving. Unlicensed drivers do not have the right to take to the road, putting lives and public safety at risk. You also forfeit a proof of identity document that a number of businesses insist on seeing. This is restrictive and inconvenient to a high degree. But it is absolutely your right to choose which path you want to take.
But you can’t refuse your cake and eat it, too.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Horizon chaser 1957

[Hlitner]

On 4/4/2021 at 4:47 PM, jeda4137 said:

Will only sail on completely vaccinated ships.

Even though I am vaccinated and probably should not be at risk of contracting - do not want another disaster with either sick , deaths and all that isolation when different countries would not allow to ship to  dock. 

For those reasons will only sail when proof of vaccination is MANDATORY!!!!

NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

Just today we booked a high end All-inclusive at a lower price then most regular balcony cabins on mass market ships.  Would we prefer to go on a cruise?  Yep.  But the reality is that it is easy to go to AIs and it is nearly impossible to go on a cruise.  And at an AI we do not have to worry about it being cancelled because somebody gets sick.  What has happened is our CDC and worldwide travel restrictions have made cruising a non-starter or a very risky proposition.  

 

A few months ago we posted that we are flexible independent travelers and will normally adjust to the market.  At this time there are plenty of alternatives to cruising (which does not exist) although international travel has lots of restrictions.  But even international travel is possible if one goes to countries that are currently welcoming tourists.  We are vaccinated and can also handle testing mandates so are good to go.

 

Hank

[SumoCitrus]

Ultimately I suspect market forces will make the decision for us. With recent talk in the media of people still getting COVID after having been vaccinated, new strains, the possible need for a booster (or annual boosters), and reconfirmation that the fatality rate of this disease is extremely low, the COVID vaccine will soon become the flu vaccine in terms of peoples' interest. And when that happens, companies will be reluctant to deprive themselves of the significant customer base who doesn't want the vaccine.

[Daniel A]

12 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Just today we booked a high end All-inclusive at a lower price then most regular balcony cabins on mass market ships.  Would we prefer to go on a cruise?  Yep.  But the reality is that it is easy to go to AIs and it is nearly impossible to go on a cruise.  And at an AI we do not have to worry about it being cancelled because somebody gets sick.  What has happened is our CDC and worldwide travel restrictions have made cruising a non-starter or a very risky proposition.  

 

A few months ago we posted that we are flexible independent travelers and will normally adjust to the market.  At this time there are plenty of alternatives to cruising (which does not exist) although international travel has lots of restrictions.  But even international travel is possible if one goes to countries that are currently welcoming tourists.  We are vaccinated and can also handle testing mandates so are good to go.

 

Hank

Hank-

 

I'm curious.  Are you still in Mexico?  Did you get vaccinated there?

[Hlitner]

24 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Hank-

 

I'm curious.  Are you still in Mexico?  Did you get vaccinated there?

We returned to the USA in mid March but will be returning to Mexico (only for a week) at the end of this month.  No, we did not get vaccinated in Puerto Vallarta.  In  February, the authorities in Puerto Vallarta did get a pretty good supply of the Pfizer vaccine and gave free shots to both Mexicans and foreign "residents." over age 60. To get the shot as a resident one had to have a Mexican CURP card/number which is not difficult to obtain but is primarily done by those who want to establish legal residency in Mexico.  We have never taken that step as we are only living in Mexico about 10 weeks a year.  But plenty of Americans/Canadians in the Puerto Vallarta area do have those cards and many got their first shot in Feb.  But Mexico was not able to get enough vaccine for their 2nd shots until this past week.

 

In our case, a few days before returning to the USA I was able to obtain vaccine appointments (for both myself and DW) online through Rite Aid (they are part of the Federal vaccine programs giving Pfizer shots).  

 

Hank

[kazu]

1 hour ago, SumoCitrus said:

the COVID vaccine will soon become the flu vaccine in terms of peoples' interest. And when that happens, companies will be reluctant to deprive themselves of the significant customer base who doesn't want the vaccine.

 

I think you are going to have a wait before that happens.  This pandemic is not going to go out of a lot of people’s minds for a very long time and I suspect many will want to be assured of safety.

 

Of course, I’ve been wrong before 😉 Time will tell what the future holds.

[Daniel A]

1 minute ago, kazu said:

 

I think you are going to have a wait before that happens.  This pandemic is not going to go out of a lot of people’s minds for a very long time and I suspect many will want to be assured of safety.

 

Of course, I’ve been wrong before 😉 Time will tell what the future holds.

In my mind, this is comparable to the effect the depression had on a prior generation.  Decades afterward those who lived through it remained very frugal.

[RuthC]

37 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

In my mind, this is comparable to the effect the depression had on a prior generation.  Decades afterward those who lived through it remained very frugal.

And taught that mentality to their children. I still carry the Depression thought process, and I was born after the War. 

[iancal]

We are not in the least bit concerned about a return to cruising.  We do not anticipate getting on a cruise ship for many months after the resumption in cruising.   Cannot say that we have a great deal of confidence in the cruise lines to place our health and safety above all else.

 

For us it will be AI's, or seaside accommodation in various parts of the world during independent travel.

 

We love cruising but covid and the effects of a covid outbreak on a cruise ship have turned us off in the short term.  Fortunately there we have other travel options that we enjoy as much.   

 

We could care less about cruise line safety  claims about early start up and even less about what some politicians say about covid passports or early start of cruising.  If anything it encourages us to give a very wide berth to both.

Edited April 6, 2021 by iancal

[Orsino]

I don't think I would be too bothered if cruises weren't vaccinated only. I'd prefer vaccinated passengers, but I'm not sure it would be a deal breaker.
I do think that cruise lines will want to say vaccinated only without any check on the veracity of vaccination so that they can push the responsibility onto the passengers should someone lie about their vaccinated status.

Also, given a choice between "vaccinated only and no mask mandate on the ship" versus "anyone can sail, but all must wear masks" I'd choose the former.

[SumoCitrus]

9 hours ago, Daniel A said:

In my mind, this is comparable to the effect the depression had on a prior generation.  Decades afterward those who lived through it remained very frugal.

 

Was this as bad as the depression? Being frugal is good anytime. Being paranoid? Not so much.

[Daniel A]

3 hours ago, Orsino said:

I don't think I would be too bothered if cruises weren't vaccinated only. I'd prefer vaccinated passengers, but I'm not sure it would be a deal breaker.

The main reason I will only take a vaccinated only cruise is I don't want a bunch of anti-vaxxers coming down with the infection causing the cruise to terminate early and returning to port.

 

There's no reason why any cruise line can't book some vaccinated only cruises and offer other sailings that are open to all.  But they won't because no cruise line wants to have a black eye if they get an outbreak of Covid onboard.  Vaccinated only is safest for the health of the PAX and the health of the line.

[SumoCitrus]

4 hours ago, Daniel A said:

I don't want a bunch of anti-vaxxers coming down with the infection causing the cruise to terminate early and returning to port.

 

What if vaxxed pro-vaxxers come down with an infection causing the cruise to terminate early?

 

4 hours ago, Daniel A said:

anti-vaxxers

 

Also, please try not to politicize cruising.

[Hlitner]

On 4/7/2021 at 12:14 AM, SumoCitrus said:

 

What if vaxxed pro-vaxxers come down with an infection causing the cruise to terminate early?

 

 

Also, please try not to politicize cruising.

Unfortunately, the CDC has politicized cruising and some here are simply pointing out the factual record.  Just this morning, at the Congressional Hearings with Dr. Walensky and Dr. Fauci somebody finally asked the question that I have been posing for nearly 10 months.  The question was something like, "can you show me a single case of casual spread of COVID outdoors in Washington, DC?"  The answer from the CDC's Director was "we do not track that kind of data!"  Here is my point that I have argued for a very long time right here on CC.  There is no real scientific evidence that COVID (or other respiratory diseases) can be spread by outdoor casual contact (such as exists on deck on every cruise ship).   The CDC is simply guessing/speculating with their policies without any scientific evidence.  

 

So lets merge this with the current Conditional Sail Order as updated in the past 2 weeks.  The CDC has demanded all kinds of restrictions on outdoor activities of cruise ships including having everyone masked all the time, everywhere, with the exception of being in a pool and maintaining a 6 foot social distance (tough to do in many small cruise ship pools).  But even the CDC cannot point to a single case or study that shows that even wearing a mask outdoors is necessary.   And what this policy even more ridiculous is we are talking about not a single case among even unvaccinated folks!  The CDC has clearly lost its way as a scientific agency, and if being agenda and politically driven!

 

And there is another issue which was not addressed this morning.  Although the CDC has demanded all kinds of restrictions to prevent "surface spread of COVID" such as constant cleaning with powerful chemicals, no buffets, and at one point demanding a long length of time between using an exit for embarkation/debarkation....there is no evidence that any of this is even necessary.  Since last summer the CDC's own web site has stated that the risk of surface spread (of COVID) is very small.  But the truth is that they cannot point to a single case (anywhere) where a person caught COVID from surface spread.  At the same time, in the face of overwhelming evidence that COVID was spread through aerosolized particles, it was only in the last few weeks that the CDC finally acknowledged this as an issue.   By the way, MIT did a study back in the 90s that clearly showed that a single sneeze, indoors, can spread viral particles at least 200 feet!  So where does the 6 feet of social distancing (the WHO says only 1 meter is generally necessary) come from?

 

This morning Senator Susan Collins (generally thought of as a pretty sincere person) made the statement that she has always viewed the CDC as the "Gold Standard" but that she no longer has faith in that agency.  And this is the same agency who has kept the cruise industry shut down, without any due process, for over a year!  ARGH!   Is there any wonder why Frank del Rio has finally blown his top in public?  It is high time that some court reigns in this agency....NOW!

 

Hank

[ontheweb]

23 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Unfortunately, the CDC has politicized cruising and some here are simply pointing out the factual record.  Just this morning, at the Congressional Hearings with Dr. Walensky and Dr. Fauci somebody finally asked the question that I have been posing for nearly 10 months.  The question was something like, "can you show me a single case of casual spread of COVID outdoors in Washington, DC?"  The answer from the CDC's Director was "we do not track that kind of data!"  Here is my point that I have argued for a very long time right here on CC.  There is no real scientific evidence that COVID (or other respiratory diseases) can be spread by outdoor casual contact (such as exists on deck on every cruise ship).   The CDC is simply guessing/speculating with their policies without any scientific evidence.  

 

So lets merge this with the current Conditional Sail Order as updated in the past 2 weeks.  The CDC has demanded all kinds of restrictions on outdoor activities of cruise ships including having everyone masked all the time, everywhere, with the exception of being in a pool and maintaining a 6 foot social distance (tough to do in many small cruise ship pools).  But even the CDC cannot point to a single case or study that shows that even wearing a mask outdoors is necessary.   And what this policy even more ridiculous is we are talking about not a single case among even unvaccinated folks!  The CDC has clearly lost its way as a scientific agency, and if being agenda and politically driven!

 

And there is another issue which was not addressed this morning.  Although the CDC has demanded all kinds of restrictions to prevent "surface spread of COVID" such as constant cleaning with powerful chemicals, no buffets, and at one point demanding a long length of time between using an exit for embarkation/debarkation....there is no evidence that any of this is even necessary.  Since last summer the CDC's own web site has stated that the risk of surface spread (of COVID) is very small.  But the truth is that they cannot point to a single case (anywhere) where a person caught COVID from surface spread.  At the same time, in the face of overwhelming evidence that COVID was spread through aerosolized particles, it was only in the last few weeks that the CDC finally acknowledged this as an issue.   By the way, MIT did a study back in the 90s that clearly showed that a single sneeze, indoors, can spread viral particles at least 200 feet!  So where does the 6 feet of social distancing (the WHO says only 1 meter is generally necessary) come from?

 

This morning Senator Susan Collins (generally thought of as a pretty sincere person) made the statement that she has always viewed the CDC as the "Gold Standard" but that she no longer has faith in that agency.  And this is the same agency who has kept the cruise industry shut down, without any due process, for over a year!  ARGH!   Is there any wonder why Frank del Rio has finally blown his top in public?  It is high time that some court reigns in this agency....NOW!

 

Hank

And Susan Collins also pointed out the danger of the CDC losing its credibility with the public. Another example from that hearing was cited by both a Senator from Alaska and one from New Hampshire. They wanted to know why fisherman had to keep wearing their masks for fear of the Coast Guard especially as the masks got wet. The lame answer from the CDC director was basically we'll have to look into that.

[Hlitner]

4 hours ago, ontheweb said:

And Susan Collins also pointed out the danger of the CDC losing its credibility with the public. Another example from that hearing was cited by both a Senator from Alaska and one from New Hampshire. They wanted to know why fisherman had to keep wearing their masks for fear of the Coast Guard especially as the masks got wet. The lame answer from the CDC director was basically we'll have to look into that.

CLO (another frequent CC poster for whom I have a lot of respect) and I have clashed on this CDC issue for quite a few months.  I do think Susan Collins (who I also respect) used the wrong word as the CDC is not "losing"  but has already "lost" its credibility with many of the public (including me).   I will not pile on Dr. Walensky since she is the new person on the block having just started at the CDC this past winter.  An agency head inherits the staff and problems and has to walk a fine line between fixing problems while also giving support to her professional staff.  But when it comes to the CSO and cruising in general, Dr. Walensky has had enough to time to force some sanity into the process.  The latest CSO modifications are absolutely insane (I am being kind) and Dr. Walensky should get the credit.  When she was named as the CDC Director I hoped she would quickly bring some needed leadership to the CDC but have been nothing but disappointed.  Anyone who has watched her testimony today (and on a couple of previous occasions) has good reason to be disappointed.

 

Hank

[iancal]

Who can really tell at this point.  I suspect that it will depend on the state of the covid pandemic as we approach 2022.  

 

The vaccine requirements may vary by country, by carrier-cruise line or airline, or by resort.

 

I certainly would not count on the vaccine requirement not be present in early 2022 if I was booking today.  My guess would that it will be required.

[Hflors]

On 4/4/2021 at 4:47 PM, jeda4137 said:

Will only sail on completely vaccinated ships.

Even though I am vaccinated and probably should not be at risk of contracting - do not want another disaster with either sick , deaths and all that isolation when different countries would not allow to ship to  dock. 

For those reasons will only sail when proof of vaccination is MANDATORY!!!!

NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

I agree 1000%!!!   I have a cruise booked for December.  I have until the middle of September to to see if HAL will require all to be vaccinated.  If not we will be cancelling our booking.  

We are waiting and hoping!!!

[Boatdrill]

On 3/23/2021 at 3:43 AM, BobbiSox said:

I am concerned about  a plan for dealing with any passenger who becomes infected DURING the cruise. That's me biggest fear. 

Do you mean you're concerned about the onboard medical center upgrades, onboard testing capabilities and enhanced medical staff training to handle a person (crew or passenger) who becomes infected ?  What is it about their new protocols that has you fearful ?  

[Boatdrill]

On 4/5/2021 at 5:37 PM, Hlitner said:

Just today we booked a high end All-inclusive at a lower price then most regular balcony cabins on mass market ships. 

 

 

Does the resort you chose mandate vaccinations ? 

[Hlitner]

41 minutes ago, Boatdrill said:

Does the resort you chose mandate vaccinations ? 

No.  I am not aware of any Mexican resorts mandating vaccinations  Mexico is also one of very few countries that does not require any testing (or vaccinations) as a condition of entry.  The resort had no signs or restrictions for guests although all their staff did wear small clear face shields (no masks).  In accordance with the requirements of that Mexican State (Quintana Roo) the resort did have reduced capacity (I believe it was at 60%) at the resort and in the restaurants (tables were about 6 feet apart).   As I mentioned in one of my original posts, life at this resort seemed eerily normal or as my wife commented, it seemed like we were an an alternate universe.

 

Hank.