Mask Mandate for cruises CDC?

[LGW59]

6 minutes ago, nocl said:

You are sidestepping the question does the safe sail report sent by the CLIA to the CDC with a request for them to drop the CSO. meet the definition of a plan as required by the CDC?

Sidestepping nothing, it is not a question that I am qualified to answer.  You posed a question to me as to my working in a law firm, that is what I answered.

Edited May 9, 2021 by LGW59

[TrulyBlonde]

18 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

Sidestepping nothing, it is not a question that I am qualified to answer.  You posed a question to me as to my working in a law firm, that is what I answered.

Is nocl qualified to answer the ?. Anybody here actually qualified?

LGW, you do not have to provide your work history, where you live, your 1st borns name etc. We al can provide our opinion and that is what you did. 

I don't use Xanax, but will toast you tonight with my glass of wine. 

Also, nobody had better wish me a "Happy Birthing People's Day" 😉

Happy Mother's Day to all. Cheers to the Mom's and the Dad's that also do the job.

Edited May 9, 2021 by TrulyBlonde

[K.T.B.]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

They did not submit a plan. They submitted the recommendations of the safe sail panel which was certainly not a plan. It was a list of items a cruise line might chose to implement. Not an actual plan detailing exactly what they would implement and how it would be done.

 

Incorrect, but I refuse to discuss it further.  

[dodger1964]

8 hours ago, kearney said:

.... I can just imagine someone coming up to you and telling you to put the mask on between bites. So it is less about what is written out by CDC and more about interpretation. 

They can issue everyone chess timers...they can reprogram them to flash a red light every 30 seconds if not tapped. Every time you take a bite you press the button and as long as the red light doesn't come on you don't have to put the mask back on.

 

(there is no way a cruise company is going to sail under these rules...even if only letting fully vaccinated passengers on board requiring masks almost 100% of time aboard ship in public and not letting passengers go shopping or to beach in port...they will have hard time selling that as a luxury getaway)

[nocl]

32 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Incorrect, but I refuse to discuss it further.  

because they did not submit a plan.

 

also the plan for a cruise to occur is by ship. The document submitted last year was not even submitted by a cruise line, let alone being ship specific.

 

so not only was it a set of non binding recommendations from the safe sail committee, but it did not meet the requirements for scope as listed by the CDC.

 

If I was trying to defend your position I would not want to discuss it either.

[OnTheJourney]

2 hours ago, LGW59 said:

you say car I say cah, you say car keys I say khakis

uh-huh...sorta ike potato, potahto...

Edited May 9, 2021 by OnTheJourney

[ChucktownSteve]

Can someone please explain to me why the CDC seems to be ignoring current covid science?

 

-They say you can't spread covid from surface contact or by sitting on a toilet seat.  (I added the last part since it's a contact surface.)

-You don't need to be six feet apart, but three feet is now ok.

-Most of the non N95 masks are not effective in preventing the spread of Covid.

-People who have received the second vaccine dose don't transmit the virus to others who have been vaccinated.

-The hospitalization and death rates have been radically reduced.

 

A lot of the rules seem to have originated pre vaccination.

 

Why can you be crammed into a flying cattle car for 5-9 hours coast to coast and in airports but you can't be on a cruise ship which has more square footage per person?

 

The government never let a crisis go to waste. I wish they would stop the politics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LGW59]

48 minutes ago, OnTheJourney said:

uh-huh...sorta ike potato, potahto...

oh that is Kennedy speak

[nocl]

1 hour ago, ChucktownSteve said:

Can someone please explain to me why the CDC seems to be ignoring current covid science?

 

-They say you can't spread covid from surface contact or by sitting on a toilet seat.  (I added the last part since it's a contact surface.)

-You don't need to be six feet apart, but three feet is now ok.

-Most of the non N95 masks are not effective in preventing the spread of Covid.

-People who have received the second vaccine dose don't transmit the virus to others who have been vaccinated.

-The hospitalization and death rates have been radically reduced.

 

A lot of the rules seem to have originated pre vaccination.

 

Why can you be crammed into a flying cattle car for 5-9 hours coast to coast and in airports but you can't be on a cruise ship which has more square footage per person?

 

The government never let a crisis go to waste. I wish they would stop the politics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

because cruise ship are the highest density of any over night accommodations. higher density than hotels, nursing home or even prisons. They demonstrated high rates of transmission than other methods of travel and/or accommodations.

 

and last but not least they involve international travel.

[LGW59]

14 minutes ago, nocl said:

because cruise ship are the highest density of any over night accommodations. higher density than hotels, nursing home or even prisons. They demonstrated high rates of transmission than other methods of travel and/or accommodations.

 

and last but not least they involve international travel.

just a wee bit closer together on an international flight from US to say, well anywhere

[nocl]

1 minute ago, LGW59 said:

just a wee bit closer together on an international flight from US to say, well anywhere

flights are not as I put it overnight accomodations.

 

they also have not demonstrated the transmissions rates demonstrated on board cruise ships. on air planes there is relatively little inter mixing. passengers spend most of their flight in their seats all facing in the same directions.  air flow to consistent top down nor across the cabins. all combine to help keep transmissions low. The most risk one faces on a flight is boarding and deplaning when air craft ventilation systems are off and passengers are interfacing to some degree.

 

on the other hand lots in intermixing takes place on cruise ships in relately close environment. this intermixing and density is what drove the high transmission rates on cruise ships both before and after the stoppage. high case loads continued on crew only ships well into 4 to 5 months after the passengers all got off.

[LGW59]

2 minutes ago, nocl said:

flights are not as I put it overnight accomodations.

 

they also have not demonstrated the transmissions rates demonstrated on board cruise ships. on air planes there is relatively little inter mixing. passengers spend most of their flight in their seats all facing in the same directions.  air flow to consistent top down nor across the cabins. all combine to help keep transmissions low. The most risk one faces on a flight is boarding and deplaning when air craft ventilation systems are off and passengers are interfacing to some degree.

 

on the other hand lots in intermixing takes place on cruise ships in relately close environment. this intermixing and density is what drove the high transmission rates on cruise ships both before and after the stoppage. high case loads continued on crew only ships well into 4 to 5 months after the passengers all got off.

LAX to London or Ireland just shy of 11 hours, that is lots of close proximity if I were to be seated in a coach class seat of 3 or more across.  I can easily create more social distance on a ship, my shoulders will never touch anothers on board, I can guarantee that

[nocl]

2 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

LAX to London or Ireland just shy of 11 hours, that is lots of close proximity if I were to be seated in a coach class seat of 3 or more across.  I can easily create more social distance on a ship, my shoulders will never touch anothers on board, I can guarantee that

so?  They have not demonstrated anywhere close to the same transmission rates as on cruise ships.

you may not shoulders but you are passing in inside hallways, sharing stair walls and elevators. dealing with waiters. sitting in inside spaces with others. etc

 

bottom line cruise ships have demonstrated the highest transmission rates of any travel method or over night accommodation.

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by nocl

[ChucktownSteve]

8 minutes ago, nocl said:

flights are not as I put it overnight accomodations.

 

they also have not demonstrated the transmissions rates demonstrated on board cruise ships. on air planes there is relatively little inter mixing. passengers spend most of their flight in their seats all facing in the same directions.  air flow to consistent top down nor across the cabins. all combine to help keep transmissions low. The most risk one faces on a flight is boarding and deplaning when air craft ventilation systems are off and passengers are interfacing to some degree.

 

on the other hand lots in intermixing takes place on cruise ships in relately close environment. this intermixing and density is what drove the high transmission rates on cruise ships both before and after the stoppage. high case loads continued on crew only ships well into 4 to 5 months after the passengers all got off.

 

So in your cruise ship examples were any of them vaccinated against Covid?  I think that would be a no.  So you're basing it on outdated info what was then not what would be now?

[nocl]

Just now, ChucktownSteve said:

 

So in your cruise ship examples were any of them vaccinated against Covid?  I think that would be a no.  So you're basing it on outdated info what was then not what would be now?

no but then again neither were the flights and other methods.

 

as of yet no cruise line has submitted the attestation documents that state that they will require vaccination on ships from US ports.

 

Without those and the corresponding plans the requirements remain as if vaccination is in fact not required.

[LGW59]

12 minutes ago, nocl said:

flights are not as I put it overnight accomodations.

 

they also have not demonstrated the transmissions rates demonstrated on board cruise ships. on air planes there is relatively little inter mixing. passengers spend most of their flight in their seats all facing in the same directions.  air flow to consistent top down nor across the cabins. all combine to help keep transmissions low. The most risk one faces on a flight is boarding and deplaning when air craft ventilation systems are off and passengers are interfacing to some degree.

 

on the other hand lots in intermixing takes place on cruise ships in relately close environment. this intermixing and density is what drove the high transmission rates on cruise ships both before and after the stoppage. high case loads continued on crew only ships well into 4 to 5 months after the passengers all got off.

If one gets on a flight from LAX to Europe, say at 9pm, it is an overnight accommodation, the seat with just inches between passengers becomes your defacto hotel room for the night.  IDK about you, but I don't sleep 11 hours a day in my own bed.  Sail away

[nocl]

1 minute ago, LGW59 said:

If one gets on a flight from LAX to Europe, say at 9pm, it is an overnight accommodation, the seat with just inches between passengers becomes your defacto hotel room for the night.  IDK about you, but I don't sleep 11 hours a day in my own bed.  Sail away

in lay down seats you are not 11 inches apart. in the other seats you are still sitting forward and in one spot with an occasional visit to the rest room. so the conditions on an air plane with seating, air flow still remain for an 11 hour flight as well as a 2 hour flight. air flowing still top down, filtration still fully replaced cabin air every 5 minutes. masks still required. for international flights testing still required.

 

with covid the crews no longer let passengers stand up an stand for periods of time in the galley areas like they used to.

 

bottom line air craft have demonstrated low transmission rates with relatively few multiple spread events, even before vaccination.

 

This experience is backed up by dozens of studies and tests that demonstrate the reasons why.

[LGW59]

Just now, nocl said:

in lay down seats you are not 11 inches apart. in the other seats you are still sitting forward and in one spot with an occasional visit to the rest room. so the conditions on an air plane with seating, air flow still remain for an 11 hour flight as well as a 2 hour flight. air flowing still top down, filtration still fully replaced cabin air every 5 minutes. masks still required. for international flights testing still required.

 

with covid the crews no longer let passengers stand up an stand for periods of time in the galley areas like they used to.

 

bottom line air craft have demonstrated low transmission rates with relatively few multiple spread events, even before vaccination.

 

This experience is backed up by dozens of studies and tests that demonstrate the reasons why.

Sail away 

[Oville]

This thread has become a road travelogue, full of bragging, highly political and quite honestly, mean spirited by many people.  Nocl, you are never going to convince these folks of your point, stop wasting your time.  I’m pretty surprised this thing hasn't been shut down by the monitor.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Oville

[ChucktownSteve]

12 minutes ago, nocl said:

no but then again neither were the flights and other methods.

 

as of yet no cruise line has submitted the attestation documents that state that they will require vaccination on ships from US ports.

 

Without those and the corresponding plans the requirements remain as if vaccination is in fact not required.

 

Do you mind sharing how you know what all the cruise lines are or are not doing behind the scenes to work with the CDC towards cruising? Are you aware of any ship retrofits to accommodate air filtration changes. Have there been any ship reconfiguration to accommodate increased Sick bay or quarantine areas? 

[LGW59]

6 minutes ago, Oville said:

This thread has become a road travelogue, full of bragging, highly political and quite honestly, mean spirited by many people.  Nocl, you are never going to convince these folks of your point, stop wasting your time.  I’m pretty surprised this thing hasn't been shut down by the monitor.

Yes of course, when one disagrees with the discussion, of course shut it down

[Oville]

Just now, LGW59 said:

Yes of course, when one disagrees with the discussion, of course shut it down

No, I disagree with what this thread has become, I won’t bother to list the items again.

[K.T.B.]

23 minutes ago, nocl said:

no but then again neither were the flights and other methods.

 

as of yet no cruise line has submitted the attestation documents that state that they will require vaccination on ships from US ports.

 

Without those and the corresponding plans the requirements remain as if vaccination is in fact not required.

 

Considering the order just came down on May 6th, you're certainly asking a lot of the cruise lines.

 

And in case anyone is curious as to what those documents are, here you go:

 

In lieu of conducting a simulated voyage, cruise ship operator responsible officials, at their discretion, may sign and submit to CDC an attestation under 18 U.S.C. § 1001 that 98 percent of crew are fully vaccinated and submit to CDC a clear and specific vaccination plan and timeline to limit cruise ship sailings to 95 percent of passengers who have been verified by the cruise ship operator as fully vaccinated prior to sailing.

 

 

[nocl]

1 minute ago, ChucktownSteve said:

 

Do you mind sharing how you know what all the cruise lines are or are not doing behind the scenes to work with the CDC towards cruising? Are you aware of any ship retrofits to accommodate air filtration changes. Have there been any ship reconfiguration to accommodate increased Sick bay or quarantine areas? 

the cruise lines have not released any detailed plans on ship design or modifications. They have listed some comments about ventilation. Mostly dealing the the mix of fresh air and recycled air being pulled into the system. Increasing the amount of fresh air compared to pre covid. they have also mentioned using higher quality filters.

 

however any changes beyond that such as location changes in vent and air inflow locations would require major physical modifications to existing  ships and changes of that kind in existing ships have not been mentioned by any lines.  

 

they might be working behind the scenes but do you really think that if they were submitting the attestation documents for going the vaccine required route, that had completed the port agreements that they would not use that to demonstrate their progress towards sailing out of the US and the impact it would have on bookings.

 

Also once the cruise lines started cooperating with the CDC on the safe crew transfer requirements the CDC moved quickly to publish the status of each ship for which they had received an application.

 

no reason to suspect that the CDC would not do the same for the other steps in the CSO.

 

As such with no statements from the cruise lines concerning completion of any of the steps along with no status publication of any received documents from the CDC. It is unlikely that any formal document submissions have been made.

 

[LGW59]

7 minutes ago, Oville said:

No, I disagree with what this thread has become, I won’t bother to list the items again.

It is mask mandates and the CDC, not tea at the American Doll House in Chicago, kind of by definition going to generate just a wee bit of controversy on both sides of the issue