Royal reverses policy on proof of vaccination. Will Celebrity follow suit?

[grandgeezer]

2 hours ago, RichYak said:

I don't really wish to take sides in this debate other than to protect the use of math here. Using your numbers (I didn't verify), the population density of Florida is 328 per sq mile. Canada's is less than 10. That's a huge difference. When discussing an infectious virus, this would need to be factored in to support your findings. 

The poster quoted population, number of covid cases and number of dead population density might explain a reason for the big difference but how would you factor that in? It has nothing do in supporting the numbers stated.

[Miaminice]

This was foreseeable. Royal and Celebrity have a totally different target group. Royal is catering to far more families with kids who can´t be vaccinated (yet). So they would have a problem reaching the threshold of 95% of vaccinated passengers anyways.
 

Celebrity on the other hand chose to take the path of no trial cruises which comes with the obligation to sail 95% vaccinated. Since they have less kids on board (one of the reasons why we much prefer Celebrity), they can stick with the vaccine mandate without losing many customers - on the contrary!

 

[laurajc]

My political feelings about DeSantis aside, I am a native Floridian who would like access to spaces with vaccinated folks only.  You can choose to not be vaccinated, but that choice increases the risk you spread COVID.  That risk is one I prefer to avoid.  If a cruise ship has an outbreak, it impacts everyone trip, not just the unvaccinated.  It also opens the possibility of quarantines, etc.  No one wants any of that. What happened to free market options??

[CeeeKr]

12 hours ago, TMLAalum said:

So make proof of vaccination voluntary for cruises out of FL. But if you chose not to show that you are vaccinated then make Covid testing mandatory with a negative test required to sail. 
 

Did you catch the Memorial golf tournament this weekend? The leader had been exposed and was tested on Wed, Thurs, Fri and Sat. Negative results on Wed, Thurs., Friday. Positive on Saturday. Had to withdraw from tournament. A negative test a few hours before sailing is not protection for the duration of a cruise. If a breakout occurs, everyone on the ship is penalized. 

 

[asnaleah]

On 6/5/2021 at 9:33 PM, phoenix_dream said:

If Celebrity follows suit I will be beyond angry.  Even though I am fully vaccinated I do not want to spend thousands of dollars with a much higher risk that our ship could be quarantined, ports could prevent us from docking, etc., etc.  And then , of course, even though vaccinated the potential risk to my own health increases exponentially.  I booked with the statement from them that vaccination would be required. If they can’t abide by that guarantee I expect them to offer us full refunds.

I completely agree. Does anyone think X will change itineraries to avoid Florida? 

[AbbyCruiser45]

Lisa Lutoff-Perlo in an interview this morning with Good Morning America says she thinks the situation will resolve itself regarding mandating vaccines and Florida. Additionally, she said offering cruises to those who are vaccinated is important to the industry. From this, I don’t see Celebrity backing down. Here is the link (bonus look at the Millennium sailing!): https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/news/video/1st-north-american-passenger-cruise-sets-sail-start-78127205?cid=share_addthis_widget&fbclid=IwAR3elP9gz35QHwQ6e_gHY58KCJz1U6wVBsKhtDmPbA75brjJd4xLpVlVIW0

[graphicguy]

Celebrity has been holding steadfast in their COVID vaccination requirements.  I applaud them.  The vast majority want to sail with COVID vaccination requirements in place.

 

Carnival and NCL have both been emphatic about their requirements for COVID Vaccination requirements.

 

The “squishy” Royal outlook of COVID Vaccine requirements being “strongly recommended” and the whole masking and separation of passengers depending on if they do or don’t have the vaccine is an absolute nightmare.

 

FL and that whole cluster…..if you ask about stomach disorders (in order to avoid a Noro outbreak) then there should be ZERO issue asking about COVID vaccines.  

 

Good for Celebrity for holding their ground.  All of us Celebrity cruisers will be better taken care of and have a better cruise as a result.  Celebrity is simply ignoring Desantis as they know it’s little more than political theater.

Edited June 7, 2021 by graphicguy

[cangelmd]

28 minutes ago, CeeeKr said:

Did you catch the Memorial golf tournament this weekend? The leader had been exposed and was tested on Wed, Thurs, Fri and Sat. Negative results on Wed, Thurs., Friday. Positive on Saturday. Had to withdraw from tournament. A negative test a few hours before sailing is not protection for the duration of a cruise. If a breakout occurs, everyone on the ship is penalized. 

 

Whole different scenario than what would happen on board ship. The only persons who would be randomly tested on board might be crew members, might be. Passengers would only get tested if symptomatic or if clearly exposed to a sick passenger or crew member. If the ships are smart, they will follow CDC guidelines: (cut and pasted from CDC website, I added bolding)

Who should get tested for current infection

• People who have symptoms of COVID-19.
• Most people who have had close contact (within 6 feet for a total of 15 minutes or more over a 24-hour period) with someone with confirmed COVID-19.
  • Fully vaccinated people with no COVID-19 symptoms do not need to be tested following an exposure to someone with COVID-19.
  • People who have tested positive for COVID-19 within the past 3 months and recovered do not need to get tested following an exposure as long as they do not develop new symptoms.
• People who have taken part in activities that put them at higher risk for COVID-19 because they cannot physically distance as needed to avoid exposure, such as travel, attending large social or mass gatherings, or being in crowded or poorly-ventilated indoor settings.

• People who have been asked or referred to get tested by their healthcare provider, or state, tribal, localexternal icon, or territorial health department.

CDC recommends that anyone with any signs or symptoms of COVID-19 get tested, regardless of vaccination status or prior infection. If you get tested because you have symptoms or were potentially exposed to the virus, you should stay away from others pending test results and follow the advice of your health care provider or a public health professional.

 

No where does CDC discuss random testing of asymptomatic persons or the type serial testing done by professional sports trying to make a "bubble" - that's because you are going to get a lot of test results that are confusing and don't identify people who are capable of transmitting the infection. We don't randomly test staff in the hospital for that very reason - all you find are false positives.

 

I am not calling out the original poster, but there are a lot of people on the boards that seem to think that the efficacy means that 5 out of 100 people don't respond to the vaccine - efficacy means that the risk of illness and death is reduced by the 95%, that is much less than 5 out of 100. These persons take that to mean that virus will be circulating often on a ship with 100% of crew and 95% of passengers vaccinated, because on a 4000 passenger ship, 200 people will be unvaccinated and can catch Covid. The unvaccinated and susceptible part is true, but it is very unlikely that the virus will find all or even a majority of those 200 people.

I cannot say that a ship wouldn't have to turn back, but with any simple contact tracing, the med staff should be able to quarantine and contain the virus following an onboard positive test to prevent any real spread.

Unvaccinated ships are a different story, although a Diamond Princess type outbreak should not happen if all the crew and at least half of the passengers are vaccinated.

[CeeeKr]

5 minutes ago, cangelmd said:

Whole different scenario than what would happen on board ship. The only persons who would be randomly tested on board might be crew members, might be. Passengers would only get tested if symptomatic or if clearly exposed to a sick passenger or crew member. If the ships are smart, they will follow CDC guidelines: (cut and pasted from CDC website, I added bolding)

Who should get tested for current infection

• People who have symptoms of COVID-19.
• Most people who have had close contact (within 6 feet for a total of 15 minutes or more over a 24-hour period) with someone with confirmed COVID-19.
  • Fully vaccinated people with no COVID-19 symptoms do not need to be tested following an exposure to someone with COVID-19.
  • People who have tested positive for COVID-19 within the past 3 months and recovered do not need to get tested following an exposure as long as they do not develop new symptoms.
• People who have taken part in activities that put them at higher risk for COVID-19 because they cannot physically distance as needed to avoid exposure, such as travel, attending large social or mass gatherings, or being in crowded or poorly-ventilated indoor settings.

• People who have been asked or referred to get tested by their healthcare provider, or state, tribal, localexternal icon, or territorial health department.

CDC recommends that anyone with any signs or symptoms of COVID-19 get tested, regardless of vaccination status or prior infection. If you get tested because you have symptoms or were potentially exposed to the virus, you should stay away from others pending test results and follow the advice of your health care provider or a public health professional.

 

No where does CDC discuss random testing of asymptomatic persons or the type serial testing done by professional sports trying to make a "bubble" - that's because you are going to get a lot of test results that are confusing and don't identify people who are capable of transmitting the infection. We don't randomly test staff in the hospital for that very reason - all you find are false positives.

 

I am not calling out the original poster, but there are a lot of people on the boards that seem to think that the efficacy means that 5 out of 100 people don't respond to the vaccine - efficacy means that the risk of illness and death is reduced by the 95%, that is much less than 5 out of 100. These persons take that to mean that virus will be circulating often on a ship with 100% of crew and 95% of passengers vaccinated, because on a 4000 passenger ship, 200 people will be unvaccinated and can catch Covid. The unvaccinated and susceptible part is true, but it is very unlikely that the virus will find all or even a majority of those 200 people.

I cannot say that a ship wouldn't have to turn back, but with any simple contact tracing, the med staff should be able to quarantine and contain the virus following an onboard positive test to prevent any real spread.

Unvaccinated ships are a different story, although a Diamond Princess type outbreak should not happen if all the crew and at least half of the passengers are vaccinated.

The question was required vaccines pre-cruise or not... not random testing during the voyage. If you don't require vaccines pre-cruise and count on testing alone, sick people will come on board who are still testing negative at the time of their pre-cruise test.

[PS0DSH]

Celebrity won't have a choice...they can't restrict passengers based on not being vaccinated.  Unless of course, they choose not to sail out of Florida.

[Jeremiah1212]

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I still think Celebrity will require vaccines. 

 

Royal's 'policy' was based people reading a website blurb that said "Vaccine Requirements for US cruises" which was posted when cruises from Seattle were really the only thing announced. That was later changed to read Seattle instead of US. We all know how accurate websites can be right now with things changing daily. The second piece was Richard Fain's comment that Royal passengers would be 'expected' to be vaccinated. Expected to be vaccinated? Hopeful the are vaccinated? Strongly suggested to be vaccinated? That's a pretty open ended descrption. He then said Celebrity and Silversea would be different. Royal also chose the test cruise path instead of the 95% vaccinated path also. 

 

 

[NJ Gal]

On 6/5/2021 at 10:33 PM, phoenix_dream said:

If Celebrity follows suit I will be beyond angry.  Even though I am fully vaccinated I do not want to spend thousands of dollars with a much higher risk that our ship could be quarantined, ports could prevent us from docking, etc., etc.  And then , of course, even though vaccinated the potential risk to my own health increases exponentially.  I booked with the statement from them that vaccination would be required. If they can’t abide by that guarantee I expect them to offer us full refunds.

I agree with Phoenix Dream.  I will not cruise on a ship that does not require vaccinations prior to boarding----both for crew and passengers.    I worked too hard for the last 15 months to stay healthy.  Even though, I am Diamond Plus on Royal,  I really like Celebrity better.  However,  if I am with the grandchildren,  Royal is a better ship for us with more child friendly activities.  With this change in Royal's policy,  we will just have to find another cruise line for family cruise vacations.

Edited June 7, 2021 by NJ Gal

[cltnccruisers]

Maybe it's time for St Marten, Barbados and Nassau to look at expanding their port facilities as options to Florida.  Millennium sailing out of St Marten while Royal's Grandeur and Rhapsody have embarkation in Barbados and Adventure in Nassau.

[cangelmd]

47 minutes ago, CeeeKr said:

The question was required vaccines pre-cruise or not... not random testing during the voyage. If you don't require vaccines pre-cruise and count on testing alone, sick people will come on board who are still testing negative at the time of their pre-cruise test.

Possibly, but with proper protocols it is unlikely that a significant outbreak causing the ship to return to port would happen,unless the ship is under 50% vaccinated passengers. All depends on how many passengers are vaccinated and how well the masking and social distancing is enforced. That's why the CDC recommends test voyages and beefed up med facilities and training and why the cruiseline wants to require vaccinations - not only is it a bit safer, its a LOT easier for them.

I think CDC will be under pressure to let the CSO expire November 1 (although the law suit may affect that) and what do you think is going to happen when it does - infected people will get on the ship. From now on there will be a potential for Covid positive people to be on the ship, its a numbers game if DeSantis gets his way. It is very possible by then that CDC can give guidance about what % unvaccinated passengers is "unsafe" and require masking and social distancing at that %. I'm not completely sure how the Florida law is worded, but should be ok to ask about vaccine status if you don't deny boarding and give the crazy people full rein to lie.

[TeeRick]

51 minutes ago, NJ Gal said:

I agree with Phoenix Dream.  I will not cruise on a ship that does not require vaccinations prior to boarding----both for crew and passengers.    I worked too hard for the last 15 months to stay healthy.  Even though, I am Diamond Plus on Royal,  I really like Celebrity better.  However,  if I am with the grandchildren,  Royal is a better ship for us with more child friendly activities.  With this change in Royal's policy,  we will just have to find another cruise line for family cruise vacations.

NJ Gal- are the grandchildren vaccination age yet?

[graphicguy]

Good GMA segment this a.m.

 

https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/travel/story/1st-cruise-ship-sails-north-america-2020-95-78068680

 

In brief, Celebrity reiterated their COVID Vaccine requirement, stating whatever issue Desantis has with them requiring it "will work itself out".  And, there was no hesitancy with their CEO in again stating..."COVID Vaccines are the way to go." 

 

Their first sailing since the shutdown has been a big success with COVID Vaccine requirements.  The video they showed had no passengers with masks on, which is a big relief given I don't want to mask up for my cruise.  

 

I'm guessing Royal will need to have masks on for their cruises, which is a bummer.  And, as Royal hinted, there will probably be some segregation between those who are and those who aren't vaccinated.  That should be fun (eye roll).

 

EDIT...sorry @AbbyCruiser45...just saw you posted the same link!!!!

Edited June 7, 2021 by graphicguy

[Fouremco]

3 minutes ago, RichYak said:

Very common? Regrettably so. Acceptable? Not at all IMO. The comparison is too complex to be used in the the way it was (and I think you all know what I meant when I wrote "measuring contest" earlier).

 

You even further my point in your own post. You say the data "isn't skewed math by any stretch..." then go on to list many factors, in addition to mine, that, by definition, skew the results.

 

Lastly, you only mentioned cases per million (which I appreciate), but death count was also brought into this "who fared better?" street fight. To have used that metric, one which is highly personal to many, in this manner was at best dishonorable.

The reason why cases might be higher in one locale than in another doesn't change the fact that they are. Stating A>B without delving into the underlying characteristics of A and B does not "skew" the outcome of the comparison. If I say 7>4, I'm not skewing anything by not taking into account that 7 is an irrational number while 4 is a rational number, it simply doesn't matter.

[AbbyCruiser45]

1 minute ago, graphicguy said:

EDIT...sorry @AbbyCruiser45...just saw you posted the same link!!!!

You're good! I think you make a good point that I didn't bring up, that overall the public reception and press coverage of this sailing is overwhelmingly positive and is so far portrayed as a huge success. Hopefully, this puts the pressure on DeSantis and continues to make him out to be "the bad guy" to the cruise industry. 

[4774Papa]

6 hours ago, Miaminice said:

This was foreseeable. Royal and Celebrity have a totally different target group. Royal is catering to far more families with kids who can´t be vaccinated (yet). So they would have a problem reaching the threshold of 95% of vaccinated passengers anyways.
 

Celebrity on the other hand chose to take the path of no trial cruises which comes with the obligation to sail 95% vaccinated. Since they have less kids on board (one of the reasons why we much prefer Celebrity), they can stick with the vaccine mandate without losing many customers - on the contrary!

 

Yes, we cruise mainly with X and on long cruises.   It is rare to see many children on the cruises that we do.

The vaccination rate among seniors is fantastic with 86% having one dose and 76% fully vaccinated.  I suspect that the percentage of Celebrity cruisers vaccinated would be higher than the quoted rates.

[Jeremiah1212]

Maybe by late this week there will be more clarity on the issue. Carnival hopes to have some sort of plan for Florida sailings by Friday following their announcement for vaccinated cruises from Galveston. 

 

https://www.carnivalcorp.com/news-releases/news-release-details/carnival-cruise-line-confirms-plans-july-restart

[AbbyCruiser45]

4 minutes ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

Maybe by late this week there will be more clarity on the issue. Carnival hopes to have some sort of plan for Florida sailings by Friday following their announcement for vaccinated cruises from Galveston. 

 

https://www.carnivalcorp.com/news-releases/news-release-details/carnival-cruise-line-confirms-plans-july-restart

Looks positive, thank you for sharing. Just another week of waiting!

[graphicguy]

19 minutes ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

Maybe by late this week there will be more clarity on the issue. Carnival hopes to have some sort of plan for Florida sailings by Friday following their announcement for vaccinated cruises from Galveston. 

 

https://www.carnivalcorp.com/news-releases/news-release-details/carnival-cruise-line-confirms-plans-july-restart

Based on recent news, it is sounding more and more like the cruise lines are offering FL a "work around" to save face while allowing Carnival, NCL and Celebrity to require COVID vaccines.  

 

Just a hunch!

[NJ Gal]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

NJ Gal- are the grandchildren vaccination age yet?

2 are and 2 are not

[voyager90265]

I saw the GMA story this morning where Lutof-Petlo was interviewed. I read it to say that people who are fully vaccinated who want to sail in that environment should have options. To me that simply means sailings from non-Florida ports. I’m less sanguine about them holding fast against DeSantis’ nonsense than before. In fact, I believe eventually they cave. I hope I’m wrong but her comments were clearly word-smithed  beforehand. 

[thethreeofus]

On 6/5/2021 at 6:33 PM, lovrccl said:

Wait and see but I expect it's going to change. The governor will not allow cruise lines sailing from Florida to ask guests if they have been vaccinated. 

Absolutely correct. Florida Governor has said he will fine the cruise lines $5000 per passenger if they ask about vaccination status.  He said it is prejudicial to those in his state who chose not to be vaccinated.