"Always included" - false advertising?

[jelayne]

I think it is time to stop feeding the troll.

[RichYak]

And here's the end of the legal discussion. I've highlighted the appropriate text for you:

 

*Always Included” Pricing Packages apply to sailings booked and departing on or after November 17, 2020, excluding Galapagos cruises, in an inside, ocean view, veranda, Concierge Class, or AquaClass® stateroom (“Eligible Bookings”). All guests in an Eligible Booking who choose the “Always Included” pricing package will receive a Classic Beverage Package and Gratuities Included and an unlimited Surf Internet package. Eligible sailings listed at celebrity.com

[Bo1953]

23 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

 

There is also option 5): if they know that statistically 2,000 guests purchase the drink package (on average), they can force 3,000 guests to purchase that package (plus few other perks) knowing that only 2,000 will actually use it. This allows them to charge less per package and still make more profit.

 

This is what I mean by "I will be subsiding the drinkers".

 

In the same way, if the drink package is $50/day, some will drink 15-20 drinks per day and some will drink only 3-4. This way the light drinkers subside the heavy drinkers. 

 

As for the tour prices, of course the tour prices per person will be lower if the cruise line knows that all guests paid for the tours because they are included, compared to only 50% or so.

 

Another example would be good drivers subsiding bad drivers.

 

Do I need more examples?

Of course you do not need more examples, yet you continue to overlook the fact that you can sign up for a few sailings without any package and pay ala carte, just as you prefer.

 

Unless you have stipulations to doing it your way, the system as it is currently, will never make you happy and I have accepted this fact.

 

As with the tours and beverage packages, the price is the price either we sign up for them or not. Again, I have never known any tour price being reduced or increased due to the numbers taking the tour. Yet it sounds like you have and I cannot dispute that as I cannot and do not have the desire to confirm it but will accept your word for it.

 

bon voyage

 

bon voyage

[Stockjock]

2 minutes ago, RichYak said:

And here's the end of the legal discussion. I've highlighted the appropriate text for you:

 

*Always Included” Pricing Packages apply to sailings booked and departing on or after November 17, 2020, excluding Galapagos cruises, in an inside, ocean view, veranda, Concierge Class, or AquaClass® stateroom (“Eligible Bookings”). All guests in an Eligible Booking who choose the “Always Included” pricing package will receive a Classic Beverage Package and Gratuities Included and an unlimited Surf Internet package. Eligible sailings listed at celebrity.com

Not the end of it at all.  A statement that is false or misleading on its face cannot be disclaimed away.

[m8zenblue]

Can't We All Just Get Along !!!

[Bo1953]

24 minutes ago, Stockjock said:

So you're saying X could knowingly provide false and misleading information verbally and/or in writing so long as they disclaim it in the T&C?  I'm virtually certain that's not correct.

No, I Am indicating if the T&C's are included with the offer on their official website or mailed or emailed to a prospective client then all is fair.

 

I Am sure you know that most contract changes are never acceptable verbally only in writing, especially legal ones.

 

Although there are instances when someone is loud enough they may be able to get the contract changed based on a verbal commitment 'always get it in writing' that way you have something to fall back on...

 

bon voyage

[Stockjock]

Just now, Bo1953 said:

No, I Am indicating if the T&C's are included with the offer on their official website or mailed or emailed to a prospective client then all is fair.

 

I Am sure you know that most contract changes are never acceptable verbally only in writing, especially legal ones.

 

Although there are instances when someone is loud enough they may be able to get the contract changed based on a verbal commitment 'always get it in writing' that way you have something to fall back on...

 

bon voyage

As I mentioned, we're kicking the topic to death, but there's zero doubt in my mind that "Always Included" is both false and misleading.  X would be wise to change the name of their promotion.  I strongly suspect that if they were challenged on a legal basis, they would not prevail.  

But stepping aside from the legalities, in terms of doing right by their customers, they need to present their offers in a clear way that does not mislead.  My suggestion would be to ditch the name and come up with something new.  Absolute terms like "always" are bad news on multiple fronts, in my view.

[HskrCrsr]

I propose that we have been using the wrong definition of "always". I think Celebrity meant "as a last resort," as in "if you don't like it, you can always leave". So it's always included if you don't book something else.

[ak1004]

25 minutes ago, Stockjock said:

As I mentioned, we're kicking the topic to death, but there's zero doubt in my mind that "Always Included" is both false and misleading.  X would be wise to change the name of their promotion.  I strongly suspect that if they were challenged on a legal basis, they would not prevail.  

But stepping aside from the legalities, in terms of doing right by their customers, they need to present their offers in a clear way that does not mislead.  My suggestion would be to ditch the name and come up with something new.  Absolute terms like "always" are bad news on multiple fronts, in my view.

 

Celebrity has a long history of mistreating and abusing their customers.

 

I still remember few years ago they dropped the prices of one of the cruises we booked by over 30%. Never happened with Oceania or Crystal.

 

The same people who defended Celebrity then defend it now.

 

As they say, it's kosher but it stinks. Why they do it? Because they can. They know they have a big army of cheerleaders (as evident by responses here) who will say Amen to anything they do.

 

We have friends who for some reason like Celebrity. They are now Elite plus and get two free bags of laundry and few free drinks on every cruise. Not sure what perks they get now when drinks are "always included" (well, except when they are not).

 

[1806kjf]

As a solo traveler, "always included" means that I am paying $574.75 for an imaginary  roommate.  "Simply Sail" was not available at the time I booked the replacement for my 2020 cruise.  The cruise price doubled between 2020 and 2021. 

 

In addition to the "benefits" I am receiving, I am pretty much a non-drinker who purchases the "specialty coffee and water package".  I was not amused when I found out that I would still have to purchase this package as my "Always Included" package does not include premium water. 

 

Also, my captain's club benefits used to pay for half of my internet usage.  Still listed as a benefit, but I am being charged for 3 devices for myself and 3 devices for my imaginary roommate. 

 

I rather doubt that my steward and dining room staff are being paid two sets of gratuities on my behalf.

 

I am going to attempt to change my November sailing to a "Sail Away" reservation, but if unsuccessful, I will cancel my cruise.

[Stockjock]

13 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

 

Celebrity has a long history of mistreating and abusing their customers.

 

I still remember few years ago they dropped the prices of one of the cruises we booked by over 30%. Never happened with Oceania or Crystal.

 

The same people who defended Celebrity then defend it now.

 

As they say, it's kosher but it stinks. Why they do it? Because they can. They know they have a big army of cheerleaders (as evident by responses here) who will say Amen to anything they do.

 

We have friends who for some reason like Celebrity. They are now Elite plus and get two free bags of laundry and few free drinks on every cruise. Not sure what perks they get now when drinks are "always included" (well, except when they are not).

While MSC has their own issues, more than Celebrity imo, at least a high level status is not too tough to reach, especially starting from a higher base status match from another cruise line, hotel chain, or similar.  For many of us, on some cruise lines, a high level status would be very hard to achieve.

 

I like Celebrity, but they are imperfect.  When I booked my upcoming cruise, it was not at all clear that it was a non-refundable rate.  If need be, I can probably resurrect the thread, which contains screenshots.  They are now doing a better job of making things clear, at least in terms of what is or is not refundable.  Since I'll likely do the cruise anyway, it won't matter in my case.  But yes, they do need to ensure that advertising is fair, accurate and not misleading.

Regarding those perks, I'm beginning to rethink that entire situation.  I'm quite close to getting to Diamond Status (highest) on MSC and they are odd in that they do a status match and also if you don't sail on MSC within 3 years you lose your status.  But the perks aren't really all that great.  At Diamond, you get a tasting menu dinner, a dance class, things like that.  At Gold, I suppose the best perk is a 1 hour thermal session.  Certainly better than nothing, but my life would still be whole if I let my status expire. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Stockjock

[mom says]

12 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

 

Celebrity has a long history of mistreating and abusing their customers.

 

I still remember few years ago they dropped the prices of one of the cruises we booked by over 30%. Never happened with Oceania or Crystal.

 

The same people who defended Celebrity then defend it now.

 

As they say, it's kosher but it stinks. Why they do it? Because they can. They know they have a big army of cheerleaders (as evident by responses here) who will say Amen to anything they do.

 

We have friends who for some reason like Celebrity. They are now Elite plus and get two free bags of laundry and few free drinks on every cruise. Not sure what perks they get now when drinks are "always included" (well, except when they are not).

 

If you feel so strongly about this, then you should absolutely never sail with Celebrity again. Nor any other cruise line who may have wording in their sales that you find to be abusive or constitute mistreatment. I'm sure they will greatly miss your patronage. Enjoy your future Oceania and Crystal cruises.

[LGW59]

8 minutes ago, 1806kjf said:

As a solo traveler, "always included" means that I am paying $574.75 for an imaginary  roommate.  "Simply Sail" was not available at the time I booked the replacement for my 2020 cruise.  The cruise price doubled between 2020 and 2021. 

 

In addition to the "benefits" I am receiving, I am pretty much a non-drinker who purchases the "specialty coffee and water package".  I was not amused when I found out that I would still have to purchase this package as my "Always Included" package does not include premium water. 

 

Also, my captain's club benefits used to pay for half of my internet usage.  Still listed as a benefit, but I am being charged for 3 devices for myself and 3 devices for my imaginary roommate. 

 

I rather doubt that my steward and dining room staff are being paid two sets of gratuities on my behalf.

 

I am going to attempt to change my November sailing to a "Sail Away" reservation, but if unsuccessful, I will cancel my cruise.

I also frequently cruise solo, of course I know going in that I am paying for my imaginary roommate, I am not forced to hit the send button after I have read and acknowledged the T&C's.  Do I like paying double?  Of course I don't, but I cruise just 1x/year and have just accepted that is how it is for solo cruisers, I will continue to do so.  However, happily for 2022 we are doing a 16 day TA on Oceania and my husband is coming along, YAY!!!

[DenGNNJ]

28 minutes ago, mom says said:

If you feel so strongly about this, then you should absolutely never sail with Celebrity again. Nor any other cruise line who may have wording in their sales that you find to be abusive or constitute mistreatment. I'm sure they will greatly miss your patronage. Enjoy your future Oceania and Crystal cruises.

Moms always know what’s best.

[C-Dragons]

1 hour ago, Stockjock said:

This is becoming a legal discussion, which is different from the original premise that "Always Included" is inaccurate and misleading.

That said, I found this online:

 

"Advertisements that contain misleading, deceptive, or false information are illegal under both state and federal laws. A company or business can be held liable for misleading consumers via the internet, magazines, billboards, radio, or television. Businesses cannot make false claims about the benefits of their products, the model, history, or the condition of a product. For example, an automobile dealer cannot advertise a car as being new when it is used.
 

The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) is the federal agency that is responsible for enforcing false advertisement regulations or truth-in-advertising laws. If a business violates the law, the organization can bring a lawsuit on behalf of consumers, seek a court order to stop false adverts, or issue a cease-and-desist order to force the business to remove the fake ads.
 

In addition to federal laws, most individual states have laws in place to protect consumers against false adverts. State consumer protection laws typically allow consumers to sue businesses that engage in deceptive advertising."

So the question begs, is it false or deceptive to state that something is always included, when in fact, it is not always included?  Of course that is both false and deceptive.  That much should be obvious.

IMHO, all of this begs the question, if you think that X has broken some law involving semantics, which you seem to be implying repeatedly, what legally are you going to do about it, besides complaining about it here?

[Stockjock]

4 minutes ago, C-Dragons said:

IMHO, all of this begs the question, if you think that X has broken some law involving semantics, which you seem to be implying repeatedly, what legally are you going to do about it, besides complaining about it here?

Why do I have to do anything about it?  Does having an opinion mean that I must therefore hire an attorney and sue them?  The answer is pretty obvious.

[LGW59]

2 minutes ago, Stockjock said:

Why do I have to do anything about it?  Does having an opinion mean that I must therefore hire an attorney and sue them?  The answer is pretty obvious.

Well if you decide to do so, remember I work at a law firm, can get you an always included deal! 🤣

[Stockjock]

1 minute ago, LGW59 said:

Well if you decide to do so, remember I work at a law firm, can get you an always included deal! 🤣

Appreciate the offer.  The same in terms of my "Major Wall Street firm", lol.  But if you want to see disclaimers, you should see our disclaimers.  If a meteor could hit the earth and disrupt trading, it's probably in there.

[DenGNNJ]

1 minute ago, LGW59 said:

Well if you decide to do so, remember I work at a law firm, can get you an always included deal! 🤣

I work for the largest real estate company in the world and I can say without reservation that I dont know @#$& about the law beyond what Judge Judy says M-F, 4-5 pm.

[the penguins]

8 hours ago, Bo1953 said:

What I confirmed is, my TA has both rates and I always select AI as it is worth the added value which is less than the rate which X offers online, as well as some of the other 'big box' stores which many of us use.

 

Yes, I have the choice to purchase a 'non-inclusive' Perk sailing or 'fully inclusive' rate, for us it is better to have a fully inclusive rate as most of the items we will purchase them as a matter of course.

 

We are fortunate to be able to purchase our sailings for what we consider 'great prices' plus buying any and all Perks we want, in addition...

 

If you are indicating that you can purchase X sailings at U.S. rates, because you have family based in the U.S. AND if the TA will accept the reservations 'for' non-U.S. residents, go for it as many others who are not U.S. residents have and continue to do.

 

You do have choice, just have to research on how to have it the way we do in the U.S.

 

bon voyage

Interesting how the answers get longer but, as on all the other threads noone, who claims they have an agent who can offer simply sail rates (simply sail is not the same as net), has answered the specific question. To make it easy please fill in the blanks:

Celebrity ship .......... sailing date........... cabin number..........

Simply Sail price $.......... AI price $........

Any agent which can do this  would be advertising it heavily. 

 

 

[davekathy]

4 hours ago, Stockjock said:

In my view, always means always.  If it's not always included, it's a poor and misleading choice of words and should be changed.

 

From Dictionary.com
always[ awl-weyz, -weez ]

adverb
every time; on every occasion; without exception: He always works on Saturday.

Your view and assumption. It's not misleading as Celebrity doesn't say all cruises are AI. You and others are reading way more into it than need be. 

[C-Dragons]

5 minutes ago, DenGNNJ said:

I work for the largest real estate company in the world and I can say without reservation that I dont know @#$& about the law beyond what Judge Judy says M-F, 4-5 pm.

Ok, you win, lol.

That's the best post I've read today. 👍🏻

[Stockjock]

18 minutes ago, DenGNNJ said:

I work for the largest real estate company in the world and I can say without reservation that I dont know @#$& about the law beyond what Judge Judy says M-F, 4-5 pm.

Two of my favorite Judge Judy lines:

"Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining".

"If it doesn't make sense, it isn't true".

[LGW59]

16 minutes ago, the penguins said:

Interesting how the answers get longer but, as on all the other threads noone, who claims they have an agent who can offer simply sail rates (simply sail is not the same as net), has answered the specific question. To make it easy please fill in the blanks:

Celebrity ship .......... sailing date........... cabin number..........

Simply Sail price $.......... AI price $........

Any agent which can do this  would be advertising it heavily. 

 

 

Just did a mock simply sail booking, April 2022, Bahamas and DR, $1989 total for two in a gty veranda cabin, for this I selected the options of adding gratuities, NRD and insurance.  Was very clear nothing to do with AI included.  Was easy to search on C website.

[DenGNNJ]

Just now, Stockjock said:

Two of my favorite Judge Judy lines:

"Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining".

"If it doesn't make sense, it isn't true".

I love it when she says, “Re - diculous!!!”  That pause “Re” and “diculous” kills me.

 

8 minutes ago, C-Dragons said:

Ok, you win, lol.

That's the best post I've read today. 👍🏻

Thanks … it was getting a little heavy in here (some of which I contributed to), so I figured it was time for a little humor.