Is Holland America trying to drive away 4-star and above Mariners?

[terrydtx]

19 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Viking's itineraries are cookie cutter and not very exciting. Have you looked at Azamara?  They have some interesting cruises. Most are not long but you can string several together and not get the same ports over and over.

My problem with Viking Ocean is they want full payment within 45 days of booking or 12 months out, no way I give any cruise line $15k to hold for over a year. Their more popular Viking Ocean cruises sell out more than 12 months out. They have a great river cruise product and we have one booked in 2023 prior to our Celebrity Apex Cruise but I convinced them I will not make final payment until January 2023.

 

We looked at Azamara, very old ships, most built in 1990's with tiny cabins and very poor customer ratings.  Not sure how they will fare with their new ownership. Our premium cruise line is Oceania with a couple a couple of newer ships and bigger cabins and 90-day final payments, which fits us just fine.

Edited November 21, 2021 by terrydtx

[cruisemom42]

3 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

My problem with Viking is they want full payment within 45 days of booking or 12 months out, no way I give any cruise line $15k to hold for over a year. We looked at Azamara, old ships most built in 1990's with tiny cabins and very poor customer ratings.  Our premium cruise line is Oceania with a couple a couple of newer ships and bigger cabins and 90 day final payments, which fits us just fine.

 

As a solo cruiser, cabin size isn't an issue for me. 😉

 

Also I am not really a "luxury" or "suite" cruiser.

[terrydtx]

9 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

As a solo cruiser, cabin size isn't an issue for me. 😉

 

Also I am not really a "luxury" or "suite" cruiser.

That's were we differ, my wife and I want a bigger cabin, a private more intimate dining room for meals, a private full service lounge and a Butler, all which we get in Celebrity and Oceanis suites.

Edited November 21, 2021 by terrydtx

[nocl]

8 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

That's were we differ, my wife and I want a bigger cabin, a private more intimate dining room for meals, a private full service lounge and a Butler, all which we get in Celebrity and Oceanis suites.

We retired 10 years ago at age 55 and spend over 100 days per year on board ship (at least prior to Covid) or doing other international trips. On the trip where we tried HAL again we spent several days on land in Australia as well as cruises on 3 different cruise lines.  To us the ship is a moving hotel that gets us to different places often linking different land trips.  We do not need a butler, more intimate dining or a full service private lounge, plenty of opportunities for those things in other places. I found having a butler on Celebrity to be somewhat annoying, finally had to tell them that we really did not need anything and if we wanted something beyond normal room servicing we would let him know. 

 

You are what the ship within a ship was designed to appeal to, to us not so much..

 

 

 

[oakridger]

25 minutes ago, nocl said:

They are on my list.  Waiting to see how they stabilize under the new owner.

 

I was just looking at Azamara for the first time also.  Love the size of the ships and they look like they have been nicely remodeled inside.  Just like a new restaurant on land, I wait awhile to go until all the bugs are worked out.  I'll be watching.

[syesmar]

7 hours ago, KirkNC said:

…and priority tendering (which more times than not is suspended on longer cruises)….  

Could you elaborate on Priority Tendering often being suspended on longer cruises? Thanks!

[Ferry_Watcher]

3 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

So glad most of my sailings were in the HAL golden days - and our last cruise was a Maasdam In-Depth cruise - transpacific and two weeks around Japan. I can die an go to travel heaven now.  Everything else will either pale in comparison or be out of my price range.

Love this!

[nocl]

16 minutes ago, syesmar said:

Could you elaborate on Priority Tendering often being suspended on longer cruises? Thanks!

Longer cruises tend to have higher numbers of higher status passengers.  Priority tendering not much use when most people on the ship have sufficient status to merit priority tendering.

[KirkNC]

37 minutes ago, syesmar said:

Could you elaborate on Priority Tendering often being suspended on longer cruises? Thanks!

Longer cruises often have high numbers of Mariners who get priority tendering.  Obviously everyone can't have priority tendering or it won't work.  On world cruises, priority tendering goes out the window which leads to people lining up at 5 am or earlier to get tender tickets to places like Easter Island.

Edited November 21, 2021 by KirkNC

[syesmar]

@nocl and @KirkNC thank you for the clarification. Have had my fair share of waits over the years—some ships have been super efficient and others inconsistent—and am just a couple of days away from this benefit. Appreciate the info!

Edited November 22, 2021 by syesmar

[OlsSalt]

Loss of priority tendering on longer cruises means (sadly) HAL is doing something right. Very high brand loyalty.

 

They can and do fill their ships with past passengers. How cost effective this brand loyalty is, is another matter. But certainly proof they do have a loyal customer base, who mostly take this loss of priority tendering with chagrin. Even pride.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, terrydtx said:

My problem with Viking Ocean is they want full payment within 45 days of booking or 12 months out, no way I give any cruise line $15k to hold for over a year. Their more popular Viking Ocean cruises sell out more than 12 months out. They have a great river cruise product and we have one booked in 2023 prior to our Celebrity Apex Cruise but I convinced them I will not make final payment until January 2023.

 

We looked at Azamara, very old ships, most built in 1990's with tiny cabins and very poor customer ratings.  Not sure how they will fare with their new ownership. Our premium cruise line is Oceania with a couple a couple of newer ships and bigger cabins and 90-day final payments, which fits us just fine.

I agree with you about the business practices with Viking.  It is how they have been able their rather expansive building program with minimal borrowing.  If a cruise line makes about 10% profit per year and requires payment 90 days in advance then they will have 25% of their annual cash to use just from deposits. As demonstrated in the cruise line SEC filings they are using that money, not just letting set in an account until the cruise actually occurs.  In the case of Viking it gives them a pool of cash equal to next years sales a large portion of which  they can use to fund their ship building and other activities as long as they retain enough cash to pay expenses as cruises occur (as expenses go out, new deposits come in).  Too bad they are privately held so we can not actually see their balance sheet.  Bottom line the fact the customers are willing to turn over their money that far in advance gives them substantial advantage when it comes to their ability to expand without incurring debt.

[OlsSalt]

5 hours ago, iancal said:

 

 

They have had years of proven success.  I doubt very much that they put up with substandard performance from any of their cruise line management teams.

 

One wonders how CCL blundered so badly installing in  CEO for HAL, who had never even been on a cruise ship before.

 

Nice guy, was on his first cruise which was to Cuba, but made some really dense and alienating changes made under his watch. Heard lots of grumbling from the crew and staff, which we had never heard before.

 

 How well does CCL know its business model, unless of course the goal was to send HAL down to Davy Jones' locker. 

[willow949]

On 11/17/2021 at 4:32 PM, oaktreerb said:

The 4* perks aren’t that great.  Without 4* cruisers HAL would not be able to continue to sail.  They are giving free rooms to casino players so who knows what their business model is going forward.   Maybe supervisors in the office need some customer service training.  A lot of staff are probably working from home.  The staff onboard are well trained in customer service but the land based support staff seem a bit apathetic.  A good  travel agent who books a lot of HAL cruises should be able to get your issue resolved to your satisfaction.  

We are 4* also, and my TA was on the phone on hold for over 4 hours on one of her calls. I also called Hal. directly asking a question, saying I needed a answer to a question. I got a very nice Indian lady on the phone, but I could not understand her. Please stop outsourcing!

[cwtravel]

10 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

 

One wonders how CCL blundered so badly installing in  CEO for HAL, who had never even been on a cruise ship before.

 

Nice guy, was on his first cruise which was to Cuba, but made some really dense and alienating changes made under his watch. Heard lots of grumbling from the crew and staff, which we had never heard before.

 

 How well does CCL know its business model, unless of course the goal was to send HAL down to Davy Jones' locker. 

What were the “dense and alienating changes made under his watch”? 
Eliminating balcony smoking? Adding the music walk concept on some ships? Phasing out older/smaller ships? Having less fresh flowers on the ships? No more Yum Yum Man? No more HAL Cats?

 

For my wife and I, who are both 60 with 40+ cruises on various lines, if HAL of today was the same as HAL of 2007 (when we vowed to not sail on the line again after a Caribbean sailing on the Zuiderdam and Alaska sailing on the Oosterdam) we would have never returned. The entertainment was lousy and the age demographics definitely trended towards older customers. Instead we have started to sail and more important consider HAL along with Princess and Celebrity. We also tend to book a suite (usually Signature on HAL or Sky on Celebrity), get a villa on HMC and frequently dine in the speciality restaurants - spend $$ onboard.

Pre-Covid I expected to take another 50-60 cruises in our cruise journey and the question was/is what will be the cruise line of choice. HAL is on the list because of the changes.

[iancal]

15 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

 

One wonders how CCL blundered so badly installing in  CEO for HAL, who had never even been on a cruise ship before.

 

Nice guy, was on his first cruise which was to Cuba, but made some really dense and alienating changes made under his watch. Heard lots of grumbling from the crew and staff, which we had never heard before.

 

 How well does CCL know its business model, unless of course the goal was to send HAL down to Davy Jones' locker. 

Who really knows if he was successful or not successful.  One would have to have access to the P&L the vacancy rate. and the other key measurements.   Wouldn't they?

 

Perhaps some staff and some routines did need a shake up. I do not know.    Simply because some loyal customers did not like some of the things he did does not make him a failure.  He may well have been but who really knows?

 

And who really knows how much leeway a senior exec of a cruise line has at Carnival Corp.  Perhaps complete control, perhaps very little other than following the detailed plan laid out by Corporate.   For all we know he and his team could have been tasked to clean up some red ink here and there and bring the financials up to what Carnival Corp deems as acceptable performance.   

 

At the end of the day, for Carnival Corp, it is all about the bottom line.

Edited November 22, 2021 by iancal

[nocl]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

Who really knows if he was successful or not successful.  One would have to have access to the P&L the vacancy rate. and the other key measurements.   Wouldn't they?

 

Perhaps some staff and some routines did need a shake up. I do not know.    Simply because some loyal customers did not like some of the things he did does not make him a failure.  He may well have been but who really knows?

 

And who really knows how much leeway a senior exec of a cruise line has at Carnival Corp.  Perhaps complete control, perhaps very little other than following the detailed plan laid out by Corporate.   For all we know he and his team could have been tasked to clean up some red ink here and there and bring the financials up to what Carnival Corp deems as acceptable performance.   

 

At the end of the day, for Carnival Corp, it is all about the bottom line.

If a decision is made to change the direction of a business it usually means bringing in someone from the outside to lead that change.  

[nocl]

14 hours ago, willow949 said:

We are 4* also, and my TA was on the phone on hold for over 4 hours on one of her calls. I also called Hal. directly asking a question, saying I needed a answer to a question. I got a very nice Indian lady on the phone, but I could not understand her. Please stop outsourcing!

The funny thing is that neither HAL nor Princess outsource their US customer service (cannot say about where customer service in other countries is located) While both of them laid off a substantial percentage of their customer service staff, they are hiring replacements at entry level wages in the US.  If you are calling from the US and got someone with an accent they are in the US.

Edited November 22, 2021 by nocl

[2Long2NxtCrz]

6 hours ago, cwtravel said:

For my wife and I, who are both 60 with 40+ cruises on various lines, if HAL of today was the same as HAL of 2007 (when we vowed to not sail on the line again after a Caribbean sailing on the Zuiderdam and Alaska sailing on the Oosterdam) we would have never returned. The entertainment was lousy and the age demographics definitely trended towards older customers. Instead we have started to sail and more important consider HAL along with Princess and Celebrity. We also tend to book a suite (usually Signature on HAL or Sky on Celebrity), get a villa on HMC and frequently dine in the speciality restaurants - spend $$ onboard.

Pre-Covid I expected to take another 50-60 cruises in our cruise journey and the question was/is what will be the cruise line of choice. HAL is on the list because of the changes.

I have to agree with everything you've written here.  We wouldn't try HAL before because of the reputation of a very elderly demographic and what sounded like very boring evenings to us.  But, I am very much looking forward to our very first HAL cruise: to Alaska on the Nieuw Amsterdam in 2023 for my husband's 60th.  I booked it for the music options, the "smaller" (to us) ship size, the itinerary, and the specialty restaurants.

 

If HAL was the same as in the past, my Alaska cruise would have been on Celebrity, or maybe Princess (I took my parents to Alaska on Royal's Radiance and it was a wonderful trip).  Honestly, I'm still not sure I made the right choice because we do love Celebrity and Princess looks amazing.  But I booked a Signature Suite to surprise him and hope that the service that I've heard about holds true.

[nocl]

21 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Viking's itineraries are cookie cutter and not very exciting. Have you looked at Azamara?  They have some interesting cruises. Most are not long but you can string several together and not get the same ports over and over.

I was just looking at the Azamara world cruise.  Very good itinerary.  However, reading the comments about it on the Azamara it sounds like the title should be battle of the entitleds.  Those with lots of days on the cruise line that took some of the segments were complaining about how entitled the world cruise passengers were, and how the cruise line changed the entertainment on the segments so as not to bore the world cruise passengers, at the same time they were talking about the number of cruise days they have and about what they were normally entitled to.

 

So you have those on the segments acting very entitled complaining about the world cruise passengers acting entitled.  

 

If that is representative of an Azamara passenger then I will cruise else where.

[iancal]

I believe that the entire industry is in a state of flux.  I expect to see and experience many changes post covid among cruise lines that we have enjoyed.  In the new startups and in the corporate spin offs.

 

One thing for certain.....if you expect things to remain the same post covid with your favorite cruise line, favorite ship then you may be in for a bit of a disappointment.

Edited November 22, 2021 by iancal

[cruisemom42]

25 minutes ago, nocl said:

I was just looking at the Azamara world cruise.  Very good itinerary.  However, reading the comments about it on the Azamara it sounds like the title should be battle of the entitleds.  Those with lots of days on the cruise line that took some of the segments were complaining about how entitled the world cruise passengers were, and how the cruise line changed the entertainment on the segments so as not to bore the world cruise passengers, at the same time they were talking about the number of cruise days they have and about what they were normally entitled to.

 

So you have those on the segments acting very entitled complaining about the world cruise passengers acting entitled.  

 

If that is representative of an Azamara passenger then I will cruise else where.

 

I think you'll find the "entitleds" on every World Cruise, or at least so I've heard. 

 

I find the Azamara board in general very low key compared with the Oceania board. And although I've only cruised once with them so far, the onboard experience seemed similar.

 

(And I do have to remind myself from time to time that the microcosm of regular posters here on CC may not always be representative of the spectrum of passengers on any given line.)

[terrydtx]

4 hours ago, 2Long2NxtCrz said:

I have to agree with everything you've written here.  We wouldn't try HAL before because of the reputation of a very elderly demographic and what sounded like very boring evenings to us.  But, I am very much looking forward to our very first HAL cruise: to Alaska on the Nieuw Amsterdam in 2023 for my husband's 60th.  I booked it for the music options, the "smaller" (to us) ship size, the itinerary, and the specialty restaurants.

 

If HAL was the same as in the past, my Alaska cruise would have been on Celebrity, or maybe Princess (I took my parents to Alaska on Royal's Radiance and it was a wonderful trip).  Honestly, I'm still not sure I made the right choice because we do love Celebrity and Princess looks amazing.  But I booked a Signature Suite to surprise him and hope that the service that I've heard about holds true.

We did Alaska in 2019 and took our 11 year old grandson on the Noordam in a Signature Suite. It was a great trip and our grandson had a fun time meeting so many people and the other preteens in the HAL Kids Club. The SS has a huge bathroom with double sinks and walk in shower which was nice with a preteen boy. Since this was a summer Alaska cruise the demographics were not as old as on other HAL cruises and there were more kids than normal, but not like RCL or Carnival. The Nieuw Amsterdam is a nice ship too and has the Tamarind Specialty restaurant which we love. 

[KirkNC]

3 hours ago, nocl said:

I was just looking at the Azamara world cruise.  Very good itinerary.  However, reading the comments about it on the Azamara it sounds like the title should be battle of the entitleds.  Those with lots of days on the cruise line that took some of the segments were complaining about how entitled the world cruise passengers were, and how the cruise line changed the entertainment on the segments so as not to bore the world cruise passengers, at the same time they were talking about the number of cruise days they have and about what they were normally entitled to.

 

So you have those on the segments acting very entitled complaining about the world cruise passengers acting entitled.  

 

If that is representative of an Azamara passenger then I will cruise else where.

I read the same but it was one passenger talking about an excursion bus.  Others piped in that they had a more congenial experience.

[KirkNC]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I think you'll find the "entitleds" on every World Cruise, or at least so I've heard. 

 

I find the Azamara board in general very low key compared with the Oceania board. And although I've only cruised once with them so far, the onboard experience seemed similar.

 

(And I do have to remind myself from time to time that the microcosm of regular posters here on CC may not always be representative of the spectrum of passengers on any given line.)

Unfortunately there are a few, one in particular who is a a$$hat on the O board and he dominates every discussion.  I have him blocked but it still drives many away who would otherwise contribute.