Is Holland America trying to drive away 4-star and above Mariners?

[KirkNC]

4 minutes ago, nocl said:

Looking at current decisions in EU countries not only will it be a while before they go away, but rules concerning the definition of being fully vaccinated are starting to change  and requiring on going boosters.

Agreed, they talked about that briefly on last nights news.  

[kazu]

57 minutes ago, CHPURSER said:

HAL is becoming famous for huge mistakes like that. 

The Premium Cruise Lines do exactly what you recommend, as well as document all requests, likes, dislikes, etc. But HAL is no longer even remotely a premium cruise line. They are down in the pack of the cheapie Mass Market lines that get ‘em in and get ‘em out as quickly as possible in order to maximize revenues.

Under the Carnival Business model, it takes too much time and effort to single out high spenders. Faster, easier, and cheaper to treat all the Masses the same and move on. Walmart is not going broke by following the lowest common denominator. Carnival is just copying their plan.

 

I appreciate your comments but don’t know if HAL disregards all factors.

 

We have always been treated well on board - we tried one premium cruise line and had a major disappointment (like can we swim from Nassau to Florida safely and get off this ship).  We will definitely be exploring different ones and I am particularly sad that the Prinsendam is gone.  It still did the old HAL stuff of years ago.  They fought Seattle and did it their way.  (Ie at a focus group the HD told us they were giving them more money for 6 tops.  Prinsendam knew what was wanted and disregarded and put in more two tops by the windows. ) The crew on that ship was beyond amazing.

[nocl]

56 minutes ago, CHPURSER said:

HAL is becoming famous for huge mistakes like that. 

The Premium Cruise Lines do exactly what you recommend, as well as document all requests, likes, dislikes, etc. But HAL is no longer even remotely a premium cruise line. They are down in the pack of the cheapie Mass Market lines that get ‘em in and get ‘em out as quickly as possible in order to maximize revenues.

Under the Carnival Business model, it takes too much time and effort to single out high spenders. Faster, easier, and cheaper to treat all the Masses the same and move on. Walmart is not going broke by following the lowest common denominator. Carnival is just copying their plan.

HAL has never been a premium cruise line.  They have always been mass market, same as Celebrity, Princess, RCcL, Carnival, etc.  They might as with Celebrity and Princess be in the one category of mass market (not the lower end family focused mass market as is Carnival and Royal) but mass market never the less. Cunard was at one time in the middle between premium and mass market, but it too is sliding more towards premium

 

They do not have nor never had the characteristics  that separate mass market from Premium (Oceania and Azamara for example) or luxury (Crystal for example)

 

In the past their % market revenue/% market number customer ratio has been a little higher than Celebrity and Princess, but not anywhere close to the true premium lines.

 

The only thing that has made them a bit more premium has been their average ship size,

[iancal]

We cannot imagine selecting a cruise line simple because of the perks.   Are they really worth that much compared to the fare?  We certainly do not think so, apart from the feel good feeling.    It is our very  last consideration when deciding on a ship.

 

We get perks on some lines. We actually quantify them in their value to us. The other ego perks we completely ignore.  I guess some people get off on waving around a different color of key or getting in the 'preferred' embarkation line.    We have never had more than a ten minute wait. 

 

We had to laugh on our last cruise.  Our perks allowed us to go in the express embarkation line.  But guess what....it was actually lined up.  We sailed thought with the rest of the plebes and had no wait whatsoever.  Have  to wonder if people are really that vain that they would actually wait in line just because it was a 'preferred' or suite  embarkation line vs. the one for the rest of great unwashed.

Edited November 19, 2021 by iancal

[rkacruiser]

14 minutes ago, nocl said:

HAL has never been a premium cruise line. 

 

The definition of a "premium cruise line" has changed over the years, it seems to me.

 

HAL was once a premium cruise line before Carnival Corporation acquired the company.  (Why must I continue to remind some that HAL would probably not exist if that transaction had not happened?)  After the acquisition, it continued to be a "premium" cruise line.  (I sailed on the Noordam a year after this happened and my traveling companion's experience and mine was the same as it had been.)  Kirk Lanterman was named as the CEO and he kept the line in that same category.  Stein Kruse followed him and maintained the line's consistent quality experience.   HAL was, at that time, a cut or two above her corporate sister, Princess cruises.   Mr. Kruse received a promotion within Carnival's corporate structure.  Lesser quality CEO's were hired; Senior Vice-Presidents of various responsibilities mostly retired (or left) and were replaced by men whose ideas of "premium" were different than their predecessors.  

 

And, that is where we find ourselves, as long time Mariners, in November, 2021.  

 

I care nothing for the terms of "premium or luxury".  Those terms have different meaning for each of us.  If I were to purchase a cruise for a family who needs to depend on my Church's Food Pantry, a Carnival Cruise would be a "premium and a luxury" cruise!  

[kazu]

3 hours ago, nocl said:

 

They do not have nor never had the characteristics  that separate mass market from Premium (Oceania and Azamara for example) or luxury (Crystal for example)

 

I would not call O a premium cruise line only based on my experience .  The service was cold and abysmal.  HAL does a better job of cleaning tables at the Terrace (on HAL the Lido).  Prinsendam while it was in the fleet would give them a good challenge, and far superior service.

 

The “best food at sea” is really a crock other than the Waves and Jacques.  

i’ve only been on one O cruise.  Once was enough.   I’ll get flamed for this post but DH said he would never go on O again he is probably the most easy going person I know.

 

[nocl]

2 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

The definition of a "premium cruise line" has changed over the years, it seems to me.

 

HAL was once a premium cruise line before Carnival Corporation acquired the company.  (Why must I continue to remind some that HAL would probably not exist if that transaction had not happened?)  After the acquisition, it continued to be a "premium" cruise line.  (I sailed on the Noordam a year after this happened and my traveling companion's experience and mine was the same as it had been.)  Kirk Lanterman was named as the CEO and he kept the line in that same category.  Stein Kruse followed him and maintained the line's consistent quality experience.   HAL was, at that time, a cut or two above her corporate sister, Princess cruises.   Mr. Kruse received a promotion within Carnival's corporate structure.  Lesser quality CEO's were hired; Senior Vice-Presidents of various responsibilities mostly retired (or left) and were replaced by men whose ideas of "premium" were different than their predecessors.  

 

And, that is where we find ourselves, as long time Mariners, in November, 2021.  

 

I care nothing for the terms of "premium or luxury".  Those terms have different meaning for each of us.  If I were to purchase a cruise for a family who needs to depend on my Church's Food Pantry, a Carnival Cruise would be a "premium and a luxury" cruise!  

The cruise categories have  been pretty consistent over the years even if the terms may change, even though over the years Celebrity and HAL have both tried to claim premium status they  have been in the mass market category.  

 

There are a number of items that separate the categories on a financial level the breakout becomes pretty clear in public available information % market revenue/% market passengers.  The mass market fall into the 2-3 area premium in the 4-6 range, luxury in the 8-12 range.  One of the characteristics is what is included vs what is extra, another is crew to passenger ratio, another is space per passenger in public spaces.

 

Celebrity, HAL both of which tried to convey that they were premium lines, but never really were.  Just a bit classier mass market.  Even Cunard which has tried to maintain the more formal side of cruising  is really not a premium line, even though they have a couple of characteristics more in line with premium lines.

 

[HAL4NOW]

7 minutes ago, nocl said:

The cruise categories have  been pretty consistent over the years even if the terms may change, even though over the years Celebrity and HAL have both tried to claim premium status they  have been in the mass market category.  

 

There are a number of items that separate the categories on a financial level the breakout becomes pretty clear in public available information % market revenue/% market passengers.  The mass market fall into the 2-3 area premium in the 4-6 range, luxury in the 8-12 range.  One of the characteristics is what is included vs what is extra, another is crew to passenger ratio, another is space per passenger in public spaces.

 

Celebrity, HAL both of which tried to convey that they were premium lines, but never really were.  Just a bit classier mass market.  Even Cunard which has tried to maintain the more formal side of cruising  is really not a premium line, even though they have a couple of characteristics more in line with premium lines.

 

If you are measuring "premium" by how much more something costs, than count me out of being interested in cruising on a premium line. I find people pretentious, who have to constantly show you how much they are willing to spend by only using name brand and only shopping at 'the best' shops. 

I do find that HAL offers a good product and excellent service to match my tastes and budget. I feel blessed to be able to cruise as much as I have and am not interested in paying more just because someone identified a line as "Premium" based on their profit margin.

[nocl]

16 minutes ago, HAL4NOW said:

If you are measuring "premium" by how much more something costs, than count me out of being interested in cruising on a premium line. I find people pretentious, who have to constantly show you how much they are willing to spend by only using name brand and only shopping at 'the best' shops. 

I do find that HAL offers a good product and excellent service to match my tastes and budget. I feel blessed to be able to cruise as much as I have and am not interested in paying more just because someone identified a line as "Premium" based on their profit margin.

While clearly the categories are clearly differentiated by revenue per passenger metric that is more a result of the characteristics I mentioned about 1. What is included (percentage of revenue from base fare compared to percentage from on board purchases.  2. What is the crew to passenger ratio 3. and space per passenger ratio.

 

It is not a profit margin, because many of the premium lines are not necessarily more profitable. If anything premium and luxury lines may be less profitable because their cost structures and clearly higher.  After all if you look at the most successful of the cruise line companies they are based upon  the same mass market characteristic. The 2 most successful companies CCL, and RCL  all started with low cost mass market cruise lines (RCCL and Carnival) who then proceeded to buy up the more refined of the mass market lines as well as the premium and luxury brands when they ran into economic problems. It will be interesting see how the new generation of premium lines (Viking Ocean for example) make out in the long term 

 

There are clear demarcations between mass market, premium and luxury lines.  

 

The point I was making is that HAL has always been a mass market line, at least since it has been a cruise line, and not its history as an ocean passenger liner (similar to P&O and to some degree Cunard)

 

One can like and enjoy a brand, one company may be a bit more refined in how it does things, but when it comes to cruising the characteristics make the category breakdowns pretty clear.

[iancal]

1 hour ago, kazu said:

 

I would not call O a premium cruise line only based on my experience .  The service was cold and abysmal.  HAL does a better job of cleaning tables at the Terrace (on HAL the Lido).  Prinsendam while it was in the fleet would give them a good challenge, and far superior service.

 

The “best food at sea” is really a crock other than the Waves and Jacques.  

i’ve only been on one O cruise.  Once was enough.   I’ll get flamed for this post but DH said he would never go on O again he is probably the most easy going person I know.

 

I would not judge a cruise line by one trip.  Many HAL boosters on this board have replied to those who had a less than perfect first cruise on HAL that it was a fluke and urged them to try another ship.  Perhaps a cabin that was flooded, zero entertainment, poor service, or even a reservation or a refund completely screwed up.  

Edited November 20, 2021 by iancal

[Florida_gal_50]

7 minutes ago, iancal said:

I would not judge a cruise line by one trip.  Many HAL boosters on this board have replied to those who had a less than perfect first cruise on HAL that it was a fluke and urged them to try another ship.  Perhaps a cabin that was flooded, zero entertainment, poor service, or even a reservation or a refund completely screwed up.  

It would be nice not having to hear how horrible it was 100 x as well.

[visagrunt]

All of these attempts to pigeonhole lines into categories is a mug's game, I think.  Ultimately the question every passenger must ask themselves is, "Did I get good value for my vacation dollar?"

In my experience, HAL have always delivered on this (pre-Covid).  In January I will find out whether or not this continues to be the case.  Similarly, Regent and Ponant have always delivered, even bearing in mind the much higher price tags for those voyages.  But Crystal failed that test.  Nothing in their ocean product convinced me that they were worth the premium on the fare.

All of this is completely subjective, and I don't doubt that others with similar cruise experience will take completely contrary views to mine.

In the end, vote with your wallet.  HAL of today is not HAL of yesteryear, and if it is no longer worth your money, then move to those who are.

[zgscl]

2 minutes ago, visagrunt said:

All of this is completely subjective, and I don't doubt that others with similar cruise experience will take completely contrary views to mine.

In the end, vote with your wallet.  HAL of today is not HAL of yesteryear, and if it is no longer worth your money, then move to those who are.

I totally agree with this. I am so thankful that Carnival, Royal Caribbean & MSC exist so that the people who love them and want to party can go there and not on my HAL cruise! 

[kazu]

7 hours ago, visagrunt said:

All of these attempts to pigeonhole lines into categories is a mug's game, I think.  Ultimately the question every passenger must ask themselves is, "Did I get good value for my vacation dollar?"

In my experience, HAL have always delivered on this (pre-Covid).  In January I will find out whether or not this continues to be the case.  Similarly, Regent and Ponant have always delivered, even bearing in mind the much higher price tags for those voyages.  But Crystal failed that test.  Nothing in their ocean product convinced me that they were worth the premium on the fare.

All of this is completely subjective, and I don't doubt that others with similar cruise experience will take completely contrary views to mine.

In the end, vote with your wallet.  HAL of today is not HAL of yesteryear, and if it is no longer worth your money, then move to those who are.

 

Well said.

 

 

[cruisemom42]

10 hours ago, visagrunt said:

All of these attempts to pigeonhole lines into categories is a mug's game, I think.  Ultimately the question every passenger must ask themselves is, "Did I get good value for my vacation dollar?"

 

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think I'd state it as you have. 

 

Objectively I could say Carnival delivers good value for the vacation dollar. They are very good at what they do, and at a fairly minimal cost (at least based on how I generally cruise). If I chose to sail with them I'm sure I'd get good value for my vacation dollar.  But they are not the line for me.

 

Value as an objective criteria is good up to a point, but there are intangibles to consider with regard to personal choices. 

 

"Pigeonholing" lines is useful in one regard -- it gives people some general idea of the various attributes of different lines, particularly people who are new to cruising. The criteria used to place ships into these categories are relatively objective and serve their purpose. Otherwise you'd have many more people getting on a Carnival ship and being disappointed that they are not getting a "premium" experience.

 

Too many people, IMO, confuse it with a subjective value judgement and then get bent out of shape because they don't agree with it. Because another line is "premium", they feel slighted that their line of choice is not.

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by cruisemom42

[yarnsinger]

With everyone working at home, which means they don't have the peek-over-the-cubicle-wall sorts of exchanges of information that working in an office can have, HAL is an equal opportunity messer-up. Honestly, as three-star cruisers who pay full fare, we feel rather like steerage passengers sometimes when four-star and up passengers - some of whom could well be traveling on one of those free casino deals - get special treatment. I reached 100 days on our recent cruise, but wasn't invited to the ceremony honoring medallion recipients. I only knew it was happening because fellow travelers who had reached silver and above mentioned it to me. The bronze medallion was just on my bed with a note. What's the point? 

 

Everyone on the ship, no matter whether they're new, or seasoned, or in between, deserves to feel special. A new cruiser is much more likely to be put off enough to switch to another line than those who have been with the ship a long time. Seriously, are people used to getting free laundry and other Mariner perks going to switch to another line where they start at the beginning?

 

Bottom line, I totally get your frustration with your issue (and we were canceled on that transatlantic too and ended up having to - horror upon horrors - fly instead). In the process of cancellation of our booking on the Rotterdam inaugural cruise, we lost not only our future cruise deposit, but also all of the onboard credit that had accrued with it. This isn't an issue of disrespecting four-star mariners, though. It's an issue of competence that affects all of us.

[taxmantoo]

15 minutes ago, yarnsinger said:

In the process of cancellation of our booking on the Rotterdam inaugural cruise, we lost not only our future cruise deposit, but also all of the onboard credit that had accrued with it. This isn't an issue of disrespecting four-star mariners, though. It's an issue of competence that affects all of us.

I admit that I do not know all the circumstances surrounding your cancelled cruise and am not absolving HAL, but will tell you that, regardless, you need a much better travel agent if you lost both your future cruise deposit and associated onboard credits. That can also be viewed as an issue of competence.

Edited November 20, 2021 by taxmantoo

[nocl]

5 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think I'd state it as you have. 

 

Objectively I could say Carnival delivers good value for the vacation dollar. They are very good at what they do, and at a fairly minimal cost (at least based on how I generally cruise). If I chose to sail with them I'm sure I'd get good value for my vacation dollar.  But they are not the line for me.

 

Value as an objective criteria is good up to a point, but there are intangibles to consider with regard to personal choices. 

 

"Pigeonholing" lines is useful in one regard -- it gives people some general idea of the various attributes of different lines, particularly people who are new to cruising. The criteria used to place ships into these categories are relatively objective and serve their purpose. Otherwise you'd have many more people getting on a Carnival ship and being disappointed that they are not getting a "premium" experience.

 

Too many people, IMO, confuse it with a subjective value judgement and then get bent out of shape because they don't agree with it. Because another line is "premium", they feel slighted that their line of choice is not.

 

 

 

Exactly.  It is also why the cruise lines like throwing in words like premium, luxury etc into their marketing.  While the categories are usually broken in to mass market, premium, and luxury one could just as easily use more bland terms such as A, B, C.  They really define categories with similar characteristics and define which lines are truly competing against each other for what type of passenger. HAL at one time had the ship size characteristic (no longer) that was more common to premium lines, but even then lacked some of the other characteristics.

[yarnsinger]

9 minutes ago, taxmantoo said:

I admit that I do not know all the circumstances surrounding your cancelled cruise and am not absolving HAL, but will tell you that, regardless, you need a much better travel agent if you lost both your future cruise deposit and associated onboard credits. That can also be viewed as an issue of competence.

This was originally the inaugural cruise for the Rijndam (now Rotterdam), which was delayed and the itinerary changed. Passengers who stayed booked received a significant amount of OBC ($250 each) for sticking with it. That was on top of $200 in OBC that came with the original onboard booking. In the end, the cruise was canceled altogether, and the ship sailed from Trieste to Amsterdam without passengers. All other sailings before the transatlantic last month were eventually canceled also.

 

As for our travel agent, I couldn't say enough wonderful things about her. She's not only competent, but responsive and pro-active, and was throughout the pandemic when she wasn't getting a dime in commission. This was not an issue she could deal with. She tried, believe me. The future cruise deposit for this trip was converted to future cruise credits with a bonus. We had the option of transferring it to another cruise in 2022 with a sort-of-but-not-quite similar itinerary, but it conflicted with one we already had scheduled, so we declined. HAL told our TA that we could cancel the Future Cruise Credit and repurchase the Future Cruise Deposit, but it's unclear whether any of the extra OBC would have stayed with the repurchase. I talked with the gentleman onboard the Nieuw Amsterdam who was booking cruises, who told me I should write to HAL with the details. I haven't done that yet. My point is that they shouldn't have instituted this policy in the first place. It was an equal opportunity bad policy. 

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, yarnsinger said:

Seriously, are people used to getting free laundry and other Mariner perks going to switch to another line where they start at the beginning?

 

Yes -- absolutely yes. Those perks have little bearing on my decision of what line to cruise with, whether it be HAL's free laundry and discounts or Celebrity's free drinks and other bennies.

 

Those things are low on my list compared with itinerary and onboard experience.

 

[taxmantoo]

3 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Yes -- absolutely yes. Those perks have little bearing on my decision of what line to cruise with, whether it be HAL's free laundry and discounts or Celebrity's free drinks and other bennies.

 

Those things are low on my list compared with itinerary and onboard experience.

 

Totally agree.  A lot of folks can't get it in their heads that the "free laundry" is worth less than one drink per day! It's not as big a deal as people make it!

[terrydtx]

1 minute ago, taxmantoo said:

Totally agree.  A lot of folks can't get it in their heads that the "free laundry" is worth less than one drink per day! It's not as big a deal as people make it!

I agree too, who really needs free laundry on a 7 night cruise?

[yarnsinger]

28 minutes ago, taxmantoo said:

Totally agree.  A lot of folks can't get it in their heads that the "free laundry" is worth less than one drink per day! It's not as big a deal as people make it!

Agreed, but it seems to be the thing that four-star mariners talk about the most. For us, stuffing a week's worth of laundry in a bag for $20 or $30 is no big deal. I could get used to larger discounts in the specialty restaurants and not having to wait until 3:00 to board the ship.

[aliaschief]

We just like to cruise. Having too much fun to worry what was or the what the future may be. We have no idea whether the executives at headquarters are competent, why a slot machine is in an a favorite bar, didn’t like the menu offerings one night, appreciate the perks we have earned and surely survived our last cruise without a towel animal!  Life is too short to bicker or let an episodic episode last a lifetime or lose sleep over.

 

When it is no longer enjoyable we will stop or seek other alternatives. In the meantime we will continue cruising and will be very gracious that we are so fortunate to do so. 

[iancal]

Really...what is the big deal with free laundry??  Let's say it may be worth $100-200  on a cruise of a certain length.   

 

If the HAL cruise (or any other line that does the same) happens to be $500. more than an equiv. competitor OR the competitor's product, say suite, offers a level of service well beyond the HAL level, then who on earth would someone care about some freebee laundry???   And we both travel with carry on only thus we use laundry services extensively.  But a free wash will not blind us to the bigger picture.

 

For laundry, for some inexpensive trinket, or a 'free' lunch on embarkation day, a half price meal?.  I believe that these days most consumers of travel products are a little more discerning than that.  Surely cruise consumers are wise enough to look beyond those minor freebees and ego boosters to look at the bigger picture.

Edited November 20, 2021 by iancal