Tipping now more important than ever

[c-boy]

31 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Technically, it would be correct to not tip on the tax amount.

and if tipping is in order, one  might use the tax times two fomula. 

[Peter Lanky]

4 hours ago, LGW59 said:

Then why do you keep adding on and on and on.  Non-tippers made their points and tippers made theirs.  Let it go, we all do us  .

Because this is a thread about tipping, and the more I can say about the negatives of a tipping culture the better. There are posts on here about corporate finance which are nothing whatsoever to do with tipping, so I think my posts are valid. This subject will never go away, so perhaps us 'crusaders' may just have a point which serial tippers just refuse to acknowledge.

[ColeThornton]

35 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Because this is a thread about tipping, and the more I can say about the negatives of a tipping culture the better. There are posts on here about corporate finance which are nothing whatsoever to do with tipping, so I think my posts are valid. This subject will never go away, so perhaps us 'crusaders' may just have a point which serial tippers just refuse to acknowledge.

 

 

This stopped being about tipping quite a while ago.  Surprised it hasn't been locked yet.

 

Give it a rest and move on. 

[navybankerteacher]

39 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

…There are posts on here about corporate finance which are nothing whatsoever to do with tipping, so I think my posts are valid. …

The comments about corporate finance dealt with incentive pay - awarding superior performance with enhanced compensation, which is precisely what tipping is intended to be.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

Because this is a thread about tipping, and the more I can say about the negatives of a tipping culture the better. There are posts on here about corporate finance which are nothing whatsoever to do with tipping, so I think my posts are valid. This subject will never go away, so perhaps us 'crusaders' may just have a point which serial tippers just refuse to acknowledge.

But you never answered my question that I posted long ago in this thread how crew members react when you explain that the reason you do not tip is that you are doing it for their own good to get the system changed.

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

But you never answered my question that I posted long ago in this thread how crew members react when you explain that the reason you do not tip is that you are doing it for their own good to get the system changed.

In most of the world the system has changed. For cruises the prices quoted outside the US usually include all expected crew renumeration, which has been negotiated between employer and employee, in the same way as the engineering crew wages, nobody has an issue with their pay being salaried rather than tipped, why the problem with the ship hotel staff being on the same wages/system? 

[Peter Lanky]

3 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

The comments about corporate finance dealt with incentive pay - awarding superior performance with enhanced compensation, which is precisely what tipping is intended to be.

Not quite. The employer is responsible for the corporate finance, not the customer. I can't imagine going to my bank and being told by the cashier "We've done really well this month, and been awarded £1,000 each, so as your personal banker, I will be debiting your current account with this. Have a nice day".

[Peter Lanky]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

But you never answered my question that I posted long ago in this thread how crew members react when you explain that the reason you do not tip is that you are doing it for their own good to get the system changed.

It is not my responsibility to explain anything to crew members; that is the role of their employer.

[Peter Lanky]

3 hours ago, ColeThornton said:

 

 

This stopped being about tipping quite a while ago.  Surprised it hasn't been locked yet.

 

Give it a rest and move on. 

The title of the thread says "Tipping now more important than ever". That suggests to me that the thread is about tipping. The only difference between the two arguments is that nobody who is against tipping has turned to petty insults to forward their case.

[Toofarfromthesea]

7 hours ago, SelectSys said:

Exactly - just like all the batteries and solar panels being installed in CA and Australia are made in China!  

 

And are produced using electricity generated by some of the dirtiest coal-powered generating plants in the world.  But the people in CA, AUS, and the USA feel virtuous at their solar powered houses and "green" electric cars.

[ilikeanswers]

11 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

And are produced using electricity generated by some of the dirtiest coal-powered generating plants in the world.  But the people in CA, AUS, and the USA feel virtuous at their solar powered houses and "green" electric cars.

 

I think you put the wrong acronym, in AUS we have the lowest uptake of electric vehicles in the world😂. 

[ilikeanswers]

4 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

The comments about corporate finance dealt with incentive pay - awarding superior performance with enhanced compensation, which is precisely what tipping is intended to be.

 

Maybe therein lie the problem, tipping to people in the USA is seen as incentive pay but as a customer from a non tipping culture my impression is that in the USA it is a standard wage that for whatever historical reasons the USA culture has decided should be paid for by the customer direct. I personally don't feel like I am "incentivising" the employees who serve me when I pay a 20% tip. The way I see it I am just paying their standard wages, which to me all employment is entitled to some sort of payment😂. A tip does not seem like anything special. 

[navybankerteacher]

6 hours ago, c-boy said:

and if tipping is in order, one  might use the tax times two fomula. 

But since tax can be anywhere from 5% to 10%, that is a shot in the dark.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

It is not my responsibility to explain anything to crew members; that is the role of their employer.

I would like to remind you that in your post starting this long thread, you stated that you were in favor of no tipping to benefit the crew and lead to a different system of compensation for them. Are you not willing to share this rationale with crew members?

 

Or was your later post when you basically said you only cared for customers and not the crew a more accurate description of your position on the subject of tipping?

[navybankerteacher]

11 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Maybe therein lie the problem, tipping to people in the USA is seen as incentive pay but as a customer from a non tipping culture my impression is that in the USA it is a standard wage that for whatever historical reasons the USA culture has decided should be paid for by the customer direct. I personally don't feel like I am "incentivising" the employees who serve me when I pay a 20% tip. The way I see it I am just paying their standard wages, which to me all employment is entitled to some sort of payment😂. A tip does not seem like anything special. 

Because the waiter/waitress has a reasonable assumption that, IF THEY DO A DECENT JOB,, they will see a 15% or 20% tip - and that, if they are careless, discourteous or sloppy they might see no tip.  If you took the time to understand the culture of the place you are visiting, you might see the point.   That 20% tip (actually near the higher end of the likely 12% to 25% range -- is NOT automatic.  

 

I will always try to understand, and comply with, the customs of places I visit --- you might think about doing the same.

 

Yes --" ...all employment is entitled to some sort of payment..."  --- but what sort of value system insists that slipshod performance of one's employment duties  must be compensated identically with careful, courteous performance?

Edited February 24, 2022 by navybankerteacher

[ilikeanswers]

16 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Because the waiter/waitress has a reasonable assumption that, IF THEY DO A DECENT JOB,, they will see a 15% or 20% tip - and that, if they are careless, discourteous or sloppy they might see no tip.  If you took the time to understand the culture of the place you are visiting, you might see the point.   That 20% tip (actually near the higher end of the likely 12% to 25% range -- is NOT automatic.  

 

I will always try to understand, and comply with, the customs of places I visit --- you might think about doing the same.

 

Yes --" ...all employment is entitled to some sort of payment..."  --- but what sort of value system insists that slipshod performance of one's employment duties  must be compensated identically with careful, courteous performance?

 

Are you saying I am tipping too much and that to comply with the culture I should tip less😂? Tips are listed on every bill so socially it feels pretty enforced and I will say as a foreigner I would feel very uncomfortable leaving no tip, as a tourist it is not my place to go against the social norm besides they would probably just assume my lack of tip was because of me coming from a non tipping culture not because of bad service😬. 

[c-boy]

32 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

But since tax can be anywhere from 5% to 10%, that is a shot in the dark.

ewwwwww, I was inferring the sales tax on the ticket. When I get the ticket from the server, I look at the tax on the total and multiply that times two. After two martini's, a bottle of wine and a glass of port, it has become my go to ...." ummmm lets see here ... uh....   is that a 2 or a 5.....   .... sip port ... contemplate decision, 😵  .... start feeling confident about my decision ..... sip port .....  ...... okay... 5 times two is 12 ....  ask server to call the number on my phone, tell them I'm ready to be picked up .... "

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

It is not my responsibility to explain anything to crew members; that is the role of their employer.

Yet you do see it as your responsibility to tell cruise lines and their staff how their employee/employer relationship should be structured?

[navybankerteacher]

57 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Are you saying I am tipping too much and that to comply with the culture I should tip less😂? Tips are listed on every bill so socially it feels pretty enforced and I will say as a foreigner I would feel very uncomfortable leaving no tip, as a tourist it is not my place to go against the social norm besides they would probably just assume my lack of tip was because of me coming from a non tipping culture not because of bad service😬. 

EXACTLY -- the purpose of tipping is to provide compensation appropriate to the service.  What tips are listed on what bills?  There may be a suggested amount for the mathematically challenged on some bills - but hardly on many bills I have seen.

 

The "social norm" is NOT to blindly leave an extra 20% -- the "social norm" is to leave a tip reflective of the quality of service.  

 

Again --- when you plan a trip to the US you should try to understand the culture --- and not simply follow you own country's assumption that the US culture is wrong.

 

In answer to your opening question: yes--- if you tip 20% for terrible service, you are tipping too damn much.

[slidergirl]

I guess I'm tipping too damn much here in town...   But, when the staff is paid $2.15/hr and rent here in town is astronomical for service workers, you bet I tip well.  I even tip 10% to the takeout/coffee place people.  I'm in hospitality and fortunate enough to not be in a tipping job.  Those kids are working their butts off, epecially now with not enough people able to afford living here in town for work.

Other places, I do tip according to service I received.  In Europe, I don't tip.

 

Call me a bleeding heart liberal, I guess

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

EXACTLY -- the purpose of tipping is to provide compensation appropriate to the service.  What tips are listed on what bills?  There may be a suggested amount for the mathematically challenged on some bills - but hardly on many bills I have seen.

 

The "social norm" is NOT to blindly leave an extra 20% -- the "social norm" is to leave a tip reflective of the quality of service.  

 

Again --- when you plan a trip to the US you should try to understand the culture --- and not simply follow you own country's assumption that the US culture is wrong.

 

The receipts usually say leave 15 or 20% tip and I was told by fellow American travellers that 20% is what you tip for average service (perhaps you shouldn't assume where I got my information 😜) so either they were BSing me or the rules are not uniform across the country or per traveller😂.

 

Maybe sticking to the receipt suggestion is best after all it is their business so they should know how much in prices they need to cover running their business🤷‍♀️. Every place has different cost of living so perhaps in more expensive places 20% is the minimum. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by ilikeanswers

[ldubs]

45 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

The receipts usually say leave 15 or 20% tip and I was told by fellow American travellers that 20% is what you tip for average service (perhaps you shouldn't assume where I got my information 😜) so either they were BSing me or the rules are not uniform across the country or per traveller😂.

 

Maybe sticking to the receipt suggestion is best after all it is their business so they should know how much in prices they need to cover running their business🤷‍♀️. Every place has different cost of living so perhaps in more expensive places 20% is the minimum. 

 

Where I am, tipping 20% is very common when dining out.  But it is not mandatory or expected.  I hate to admit it but for me it is just easier to calculate than 18%.  😁

 

If I had to, I would say 18% is the current standard (used to be 15%).   There are times when I boost the tip quite a bit.  For example, in a small diner with a small tab, I'll tip  more.    I don't  tip at fast food joints or (in general) for take out.  I will toss coin change in the tip jar if one exists.   

 

 

[ldubs]

11 hours ago, c-boy said:

and if tipping is in order, one  might use the tax times two fomula. 

 

That would work in my state where sales tax is high.   I usually just do 20% and round it to the nearest dollar.  Easy-peasy.  

[Peter Lanky]

8 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I would like to remind you that in your post starting this long thread, you stated that you were in favor of no tipping to benefit the crew and lead to a different system of compensation for them. Are you not willing to share this rationale with crew members?

 

Or was your later post when you basically said you only cared for customers and not the crew a more accurate description of your position on the subject of tipping?

 

I did not contribute to this thread until post 34, by which time the arguments for and against were well established. I was doing nothing more than attempting to promote the anti tipping side. My thoughts on compensation are not the business of crew members, whose role is to carry out their job according to their job description.

 

When I purchase any service or goods, the pay of those at the sharp end is not my concern, and why should it be, as it is purely a relationship between employer and employee. I am concerned in general that many people are low paid, and that something should be done, but as I'm not an employer, politician or celebrity, then there is nothing I can personally do about it. All I can do is vote for the right politicians, and thereby another can of worms is opened.

 

Customers are the most important element of every transaction. Without customers there would be no cruise lines and no service staff. When I buy a product, I expect everything to be covered by that product to the best of the ability of the business and it's staff. I don't expect to have to pay more later on to make it a little better. This is the job of the employer, who will then pass the increased cost onto me, and I'm quite happy with that, as I have the choice at the time of purchase.

6 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Yet you do see it as your responsibility to tell cruise lines and their staff how their employee/employer relationship should be structured?

 

Incorrect. I have no interest in the employee/employer relationship, though I'd like to think that the staff is happy. I have only two real interests, which are how much I pay for a product at the point of purchase, and that I enjoy the product when it is delivered.

[ontheweb]

8 hours ago, slidergirl said:

I guess I'm tipping too damn much here in town...   But, when the staff is paid $2.15/hr and rent here in town is astronomical for service workers, you bet I tip well.  I even tip 10% to the takeout/coffee place people.  I'm in hospitality and fortunate enough to not be in a tipping job.  Those kids are working their butts off, epecially now with not enough people able to afford living here in town for work.

Other places, I do tip according to service I received.  In Europe, I don't tip.

 

Call me a bleeding heart liberal, I guess

You are a bleeding heart liberal.😊 Ok, I did what you want, are you happy now?🤣