Tipping now more important than ever

[KBs mum]

4 hours ago, LGW59 said:

You miss the point, the example was not a US or UK worker, but a wotker somewhere where the weekly wage is ten dollars.  Where in the heck is the weekly wage $10.00?????

Several African countries and some areas of India and China 

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

In any good system, the best should always rise to the top, as you say.  And the mediocre will continue to complain about how unfair things are!  

 

In theory🙄 In practice the world isn't that logical😂. 

[Peter Lanky]

10 hours ago, LGW59 said:

The sweeper in the US is part of a union, paid a very generous wage and pension program.  Stop suggesting what the US should/should not do re tipping, it is what it is here, and it is or is not what it is in UK.  Your crusade is falling on deaf ears.

 

Judging from the variety of responses it would appear that it is definitely not falling on deaf ears. The majority of people here are discussing it reasonably whichever side they take. Also from your responses, I believe you are not reading what I have written, which is quite clear and unambiguous and does not state at any point that the examples I am giving are related to the US.

8 hours ago, LGW59 said:

I miss nothing, no counter argument needed, some business in US tipping is expected, I am OK with that, most in UK are not, OK with that, though I still tip in Europe.  I still subscribe, when in Rome...

 

I hate the term 'You miss the point' as it comes over as somewhat insulting, but sometimes it is actually accurate. This sub-topic within the discussion is about 'Developing Countries', not the US.

8 hours ago, LGW59 said:

You miss the point, the example was not a US or UK worker, but a wotker somewhere where the weekly wage is ten dollars.  Where in the heck is the weekly wage $10.00?????

You would be surprised just how low the income of many people in developing countries can be. They may have a quoted minimum wage for each country, but actually receiving it is mainly the privilege of western nations. Unlike the US or UK, the road sweeper is not unionised, but probably gets paid by the local charity or may even have to sell some of the stuff they have cleaned up as salvage.

[ldubs]

9 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

In theory🙄 In practice the world isn't that logical😂. 

 

Not just theory.  Happens all the time, and especially with good companies.  Nonetheless, I agree with your comment about the world and logic ( or rationale).  

[cruisemom42]

12 hours ago, ldubs said:

One factor in the shortage of restaurant workers in our area is equal paying jobs with better hours-- better work/life balance.

 

Economics is far outside my brief. But isn't it a tenet of capitalism that if owners cannot attract workers at the going rate, they will eventually have to offer more?  E.g., if workers can find better jobs at a better wage they'll take them in preference.

 

Issues start to creep in when there ARE no better paying jobs and/or when the cost of living is increasing at a faster rate than wages. I've seen the math for my given economic area and it's clear to me that someone working in a minimum-wage job cannot really "afford" to live and meet what most of us would consider basic needs without having to work a second job.

 

[Peter Lanky]

9 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Economics is far outside my brief. But isn't it a tenet of capitalism that if owners cannot attract workers at the going rate, they will eventually have to offer more?  E.g., if workers can find better jobs at a better wage they'll take them in preference.

 

Issues start to creep in when there ARE no better paying jobs and/or when the cost of living is increasing at a faster rate than wages. I've seen the math for my given economic area and it's clear to me that someone working in a minimum-wage job cannot really "afford" to live and meet what most of us would consider basic needs without having to work a second job.

 

I don't know the position in other countries, but in the UK it's very dependent on which part of the country one lives. For example, where I live half way between Manchester and Liverpool, unless they have other debts, a minimum wage earner can get by quite adequately. A couple who are both minimum wage earners could even get a mortgage if they tried hard enough.

 

In London, the minimum wage would struggle to live in a slum bedsit. Yet for some unknown reason, many people either drift towards London or refuse to consider moving to any other part of the country. Even a professional person on £50K would find in impossible to own a property, and they could only afford to rent what would be an average flat.

 

Employers do take the mickey though. A restaurant owner in London was moaning in the press that nobody had applied for a job as a chef (blaming everything on Brexit). He was offering £9.50 to £10.50 an hour. The minimum wage is £9 an hour soon rising to £9.50. This wasn't a pretend chef just chopping up veg, but somebody who was expected to have many responsibilities. This restaurant was kindly offering customers to bring their own wine, and charging them £35 corkage just to open it. It's heartening when one hears of employers like this going bust.

[Mike981]

On 2/23/2022 at 8:58 PM, slidergirl said:

I guess I'm tipping too damn much here in town...   But, when the staff is paid $2.15/hr and rent here in town is astronomical for service workers, you bet I tip well.  I even tip 10% to the takeout/coffee place people.  I'm in hospitality and fortunate enough to not be in a tipping job.  Those kids are working their butts off, epecially now with not enough people able to afford living here in town for work.

Other places, I do tip according to service I received.  In Europe, I don't tip.

 

Call me a bleeding heart liberal, I guess

 

I feel that most folks that work in the service/hospitality/blue collar industries tend to tip much better.

 

Case and point, my mother waitress-d at a supper club on the west side of town, it was almost all white-collar workers. She would also help at their sister restaurant on the east side of town, almost all blue-collar workers. Tips were night and day different at the east side location. When we were low on funds to take a vacation, I delivered pizza a few hours a week. People in office buildings would give well south of 10% and then blue-collar locations often tipped 50% or more. I live in a college town and the college students were by far the best tippers. I think they took pity on the old grey guy delivering. 😆

 

As a side note, that job was a heck of a lot of fun and removed any fears of the next generation coming up. There were many quality kids working with me (ages 16-20+) and they seemed to have their heads on straight.

[c-boy]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

I don't know the position in other countries, but in the UK it's very dependent on which part of the country one lives. For example, where I live half way between Manchester and Liverpool, unless they have other debts, a minimum wage earner can get by quite adequately. A couple who are both minimum wage earners could even get a mortgage if they tried hard enough.

 

In London, the minimum wage would struggle to live in a slum bedsit. Yet for some unknown reason, many people either drift towards London or refuse to consider moving to any other part of the country. Even a professional person on £50K would find in impossible to own a property, and they could only afford to rent what would be an average flat.

 

Employers do take the mickey though. A restaurant owner in London was moaning in the press that nobody had applied for a job as a chef (blaming everything on Brexit). He was offering £9.50 to £10.50 an hour. The minimum wage is £9 an hour soon rising to £9.50. This wasn't a pretend chef just chopping up veg, but somebody who was expected to have many responsibilities. This restaurant was kindly offering customers to bring their own wine, and charging them £35 corkage just to open it. It's heartening when one hears of employers like this going bust.

well this is an enlightening post

[Toofarfromthesea]

23 hours ago, KBs mum said:

Nowhere else has the same or similar tipping culture as the US. I've allready asked those on this thread who think the US is not an outlier to provide examples that prove otherwise, from their own travel experiences. None were suggested. 

 

And I already posted a link to an article outlining the wide variety of tipping practices around the world.

[Toofarfromthesea]

15 hours ago, CPT Trips said:

When did fairness become elitist?

 

When the elites took it upon themselves to define fairness and decide that their sensibilities should be the governing principle.  Many jobs and professions come with a lifestyle.  If you're a chef you are not going to be spending many holidays with your family.  If you are a commercial crab fisherman you are going to be away from your family for weeks or months at a time.  If you are in the military you are going to go where ordered for as long as ordered.  If you are in a "tipped" job a portion of your income may be fluctuating.  People choose their jobs, taking into account what the job entails, including the lifestyle.    If they don't like the lifestyle the job entails they have the freedom to choose a different job.  It is incredibly elitist and arrogant to suggest that one's definition of fair should be imposed on their choices.  It is not a one-size fits all world.  One person's "unfair" job may be another person's dream job.

[Toofarfromthesea]

3 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Economics is far outside my brief. But isn't it a tenet of capitalism that if owners cannot attract workers at the going rate, they will eventually have to offer more?  E.g., if workers can find better jobs at a better wage they'll take them in preference.

 

Issues start to creep in when there ARE no better paying jobs and/or when the cost of living is increasing at a faster rate than wages. I've seen the math for my given economic area and it's clear to me that someone working in a minimum-wage job cannot really "afford" to live and meet what most of us would consider basic needs without having to work a second job.

 

 

Frankly I have very little sympathy for full grown adults who cannot make more than minimum wage.  Minimum wage is supposed to be entry level, and if someone is still there after a couple of years in the workforce then it is their own fault for not having taken steps to make themselves more valuable by acquiring more skills.  Another principle of capitalism is that an employer cannot pay an employee more than the value of their work.  That is why the push for higher minimum wages has been met, in some businesses, by employers exploring and implementing automation solutions to replace employees who are simply not worth the higher minimum.

[DirtyDawg]

To tip, or not to tip: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous gratuitous gratuities,
Or to take arms against a sea of tippers,
And by opposing end them?

 

🙂

[Peter Lanky]

18 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Frankly I have very little sympathy for full grown adults who cannot make more than minimum wage.  Minimum wage is supposed to be entry level, and if someone is still there after a couple of years in the workforce then it is their own fault for not having taken steps to make themselves more valuable by acquiring more skills.  Another principle of capitalism is that an employer cannot pay an employee more than the value of their work.  That is why the push for higher minimum wages has been met, in some businesses, by employers exploring and implementing automation solutions to replace employees who are simply not worth the higher minimum.

Some people just don't have the skills to lift themselves up from minimum wage jobs. This has become more common as people with mental illnesses have been pushed into the real world to fend for themselves. I have met many of these people and they are not lazy or  even bad workers, but just don't have the capacity to move upwards. Many would not even understand the concept of promotion. However, there is a job out there for everyone to match their abilities if only political and social groups would take the trouble to match them to these jobs. They are worth more to society than influencers and pseudo celebrities.

[LGW59]

38 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

When the elites took it upon themselves to define fairness and decide that their sensibilities should be the governing principle.  Many jobs and professions come with a lifestyle.  If you're a chef you are not going to be spending many holidays with your family.  If you are a commercial crab fisherman you are going to be away from your family for weeks or months at a time.  If you are in the military you are going to go where ordered for as long as ordered.  If you are in a "tipped" job a portion of your income may be fluctuating.  People choose their jobs, taking into account what the job entails, including the lifestyle.    If they don't like the lifestyle the job entails they have the freedom to choose a different job.  It is incredibly elitist and arrogant to suggest that one's definition of fair should be imposed on their choices.  It is not a one-size fits all world.  One person's "unfair" job may be another person's dream job.

Thanks, Tucker

[KBs mum]

49 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

And I already posted a link to an article outlining the wide variety of tipping practices around the world.

I replied pointing out that the article is not accurate about my country or others I know well, so is likely to be equally inaccurate elsewhere. 

I'll repeat what I said then. Can you give an example from your own travels, having spoken to locals on the subject, of a country that has a similar tipping culture to the US. 

Please don't reply unless you are going to say something you haven't allready said. Life's too short to retype the entire discussion since then

[LGW59]

On 2/24/2022 at 2:39 PM, KBs mum said:

Nowhere else has the same or similar tipping culture as the US. I've allready asked those on this thread who think the US is not an outlier to provide examples that prove otherwise, from their own travel experiences. None were suggested. 

Because NOTHING anyone says on here re their personal opinion is going to change a damn opinion.  Yet the "crusade" continues for some ridiculous reason.  

[Peter Lanky]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

And I already posted a link to an article outlining the wide variety of tipping practices around the world.

 

It would be interesting to know if any of these countries had a tipping culture prior to large scale international tourism. Even where it culturally frowned upon, it is becoming more common as the lure of easy money trumps many cultural considerations. After being told ten years ago that tipping is insulting in China, I end up being literally chased down the street by an angry boatman. I shouldn't have to need to deal with this sort of complication when I am on holiday.

[Peter Lanky]

6 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

Because NOTHING anyone says on here re their personal opinion is going to change a damn opinion.  Yet the "crusade" continues for some ridiculous reason.  

It's heartening to see that a couple of cruise lines at least don't take the same view and have changed their brochure pricing to include everything.

[KBs mum]

48 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

It's heartening to see that a couple of cruise lines at least don't take the same view and have changed their brochure pricing to include everything.

Some cruise lines include everything for those in non tipping countries, but not for those in the US. I don't know if this is to cater for cultural norms or not

[KBs mum]

57 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

It would be interesting to know if any of these countries had a tipping culture prior to large scale international tourism. Even where it culturally frowned upon, it is becoming more common as the lure of easy money trumps many cultural considerations. After being told ten years ago that tipping is insulting in China, I end up being literally chased down the street by an angry boatman. I shouldn't have to need to deal with this sort of complication when I am on holiday.

Not international tourism, tourism from places with a tipping culture who have representatives that insist on behaving as they do at home. 

I've never been hassled for tips anywhere in the world. People from the US are seen as easy marks in some countries. 

 

[slidergirl]

4 hours ago, Mike981 said:

 

I feel that most folks that work in the service/hospitality/blue collar industries tend to tip much better.

 

Case and point, my mother waitress-d at a supper club on the west side of town, it was almost all white-collar workers. She would also help at their sister restaurant on the east side of town, almost all blue-collar workers. Tips were night and day different at the east side location. When we were low on funds to take a vacation, I delivered pizza a few hours a week. People in office buildings would give well south of 10% and then blue-collar locations often tipped 50% or more. I live in a college town and the college students were by far the best tippers. I think they took pity on the old grey guy delivering. 😆

 

As a side note, that job was a heck of a lot of fun and removed any fears of the next generation coming up. There were many quality kids working with me (ages 16-20+) and they seemed to have their heads on straight.

My friends who are servers/bellpeople say the worst tippers are those who come out for the Sundance Film Festival.  They order a coffee, sit for 2 hours at that table, and don't leave a tip.  Or, they only do 10% if lucky.  Bellpeople will maybe get $2 for their assistance.  One of the reasons I always tip well, let them know that someone appreciates the work they do.    for that $2.17 minimum, I believe there is attached some sort of expectation of reporting a certain amount of earned gratuity.   

A resort town is filled with low-wage jobs, hoping to get those young ski/mt. biking bums.   When I worked at the one ski area, your "raise" was that you got to start at what you finished the season making, which meant an additional $.50 or so.   At the last high-end resort hotel I worked at, when I left, I made $1.75 more than the new agents because I was a supervisor and I had 2 raises that gave me $.75 extra.  That was with 6 years experience.   All the hotels were offering me a similar amount.  The property management business gave me more, so here I am.   It has nothing to do with working hard or finding a better job that pays more - sometimes the opportunities are just not there.

[c-boy]

14 minutes ago, KBs mum said:

Some cruise lines include everything for those in non tipping countries, but not for those in the US. I don't know if this is to cater for cultural norms or not

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say ... yes

[Mike981]

2 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Frankly I have very little sympathy for full grown adults who cannot make more than minimum wage.  Minimum wage is supposed to be entry level, and if someone is still there after a couple of years in the workforce then it is their own fault for not having taken steps to make themselves more valuable by acquiring more skills.  Another principle of capitalism is that an employer cannot pay an employee more than the value of their work.  That is why the push for higher minimum wages has been met, in some businesses, by employers exploring and implementing automation solutions to replace employees who are simply not worth the higher minimum.

 

Yes, I have heard this explanation my whole life. And I believed it for a while, not anymore. I truly wish it was this simple.

 

12 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

My friends who are servers/bellpeople say the worst tippers are those who come out for the Sundance Film Festival.  They order a coffee, sit for 2 hours at that table, and don't leave a tip.  Or, they only do 10% if lucky.  Bellpeople will maybe get $2 for their assistance.  One of the reasons I always tip well, let them know that someone appreciates the work they do.    for that $2.17 minimum, I believe there is attached some sort of expectation of reporting a certain amount of earned gratuity.   

A resort town is filled with low-wage jobs, hoping to get those young ski/mt. biking bums.   When I worked at the one ski area, your "raise" was that you got to start at what you finished the season making, which meant an additional $.50 or so.   At the last high-end resort hotel I worked at, when I left, I made $1.75 more than the new agents because I was a supervisor and I had 2 raises that gave me $.75 extra.  That was with 6 years experience.   All the hotels were offering me a similar amount.  The property management business gave me more, so here I am.   It has nothing to do with working hard or finding a better job that pays more - sometimes the opportunities are just not there.

 
Bingo. I hope you are enjoying your career in the property management business.

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, KBs mum said:

Not international tourism, tourism from places with a tipping culture who have representatives that insist on behaving as they do at home. 

I've never been hassled for tips anywhere in the world. People from the US are seen as easy marks in some countries. 

 

I can definitely confirm countries that get a lot of American tourists tend to expect international tourists to all tip like Americans. I think it is safe to assume Americans are clearly the most "generous" tippers😂. Speaking to locals and reading up on the subject it turns out tipping like a tourist is not great for local communities so I try my best to stick to local tipping norms. 

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, KBs mum said:

Some cruise lines include everything for those in non tipping countries, but not for those in the US. I don't know if this is to cater for cultural norms or not

 

I have be told by more experienced cruisers that when American cruise lines first started from Australia they tried using the American price system but nearly all the Australian cruisers would remove the auto gratuities so the cruise lines combined it into the cruise price.