Tipping now more important than ever

[DirtyDawg]

8 hours ago, CPT Trips said:

Sorry this is small. It does show the average effective sales tax charged when local sales taxes are added to the state sales tax. Not many states are under six percent. There’s also differences in exactly what goods are taxed. 

 

https://taxfoundation.org/2022-sales-taxes/

 

I looked at the top of this map and saw 6.24%. WOW did Christmas come again to Ontario so soon? Did they slash our sales tax rate down from 13%? 

 

Then I had another gulp of coffee and realized that rate is for Vermont. What the heck is Vermont doing all the way up in Northern Ontario? There are only mines, pulp mills and giant geese up there! 

 

New Hampshire, at least got, moved to near Quebec City. 

 

What did Vermont do so wrong?? 

😉

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by DirtyDawg

[kamelia]

4 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

As a matter of interest, how did they take to cricket? It must have been a good school because despite cricket being our national summer sport, scant attention is paid to it in most schools. Buying kit is even more difficult. When I last needed some kit around 1990, the nearest place to get cricket kit was 25 miles away. When I was young, my town had about half a dozen 'sport shops', selling all manner of kit for playing sport. Now they have all been replaced by fashion shops selling kit that looks like it's for sport, but has little practical use. I'm now hopefully looking forward to a few visits to Old Trafford to watch the mighty Lancashire County Cricket Club. 😃

They seemed to enjoy cricket, but would much rather play rugby.  (You could probably imagine the eyeroll I got from the sport teacher when I asked what sort of helmet they were going to need for that! 🙄) This would have been mid-90's as well, so likely that sport shop has gone by the wayside by now, too.  Lots of fond memories of village life, though!

[Peter Lanky]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Isn't that just a general issue with employment value? During the height of Covid workers were divided into essential and non essential and it was pretty clear those essential jobs that were expected to continue even in the worst of the pandemic are mostly pretty poorly paid jobs yet society literally can't function without them. This is a multi layered societal issue about how we value certain jobs. I think you are giving tipping more blame for this problem than it really deserves as I can't see how eliminating tipping is going to solve this issue😕. 

 

I don't at all think removing tipping is the answer to this specific problem. The discussion sort of drifted in this direction after being enlightened at how much a few people in service can make a good living, and I was trying to highlight those who are unable to do this.

 

I was just thinking it all through while in a moment of contemplation, and in this moment I imagined that the method of paying people was completely wiped from the minds of humanity in it's entirety. I can't imagine that as a new era of remuneration developed, that it would transpire that almost everyone in the world would be given a fixed sum for their work depending on it's worth, but a small number who served food and drinks or serviced rooms on ships would be paid half that amount, and Mr Joe public would be responsible for the rest, either voluntarily or under threat of violence, based on a complex and completely unknown formula.

[Joebucks]

Tipped employees seem to generally be the victims. Until that is, they are asked to report their cash tips. Then it's time to change the subject. "Weep for my $4 an hour wage. Don't look at the $500 I brought home Saturday night".

 

It's incredible how few understand the economics of wages. It's not like we're staring incredibly high inflation, or surging wages in the face. Only for many to say that it's not enough, and we need higher wages to combat the inflation. It's a pointless, circular argument. 

 

It's the ultimate in morality points to say someone else should make more and someone else should pay for it. How the world actually works, is a different story. What the US actually needs, is to figure out real solutions for keeping costs like healthcare, housing, etc low. Not Liberal entitlement solutions. Ones that offer choice, flexibility, and fewer monopolies. These things don't happen because they aren't popular politics.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Joebucks

[CPT Trips]

2 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

I looked at the top of this map and saw 6.24%. WOW did Christmas come again to Ontario so soon? Did they slash our sales tax rate down from 13%? 

 

Then I had another gulp of coffee and realized that rate is for Vermont. What the heck is Vermont doing all the way up in Northern Ontario? There are only mines, pulp mills and giant geese up there! 

 

New Hampshire, at least got, moved to near Quebec City. 

 

What did Vermont do so wrong?? 

😉

 

Yes. And Alaska is in Mexico, so no way can the former governor see Russia.

[CPT Trips]

10 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I need one of these next time I'm in the USA👍😁

Copy, paste, print. 
Or do a search for the sales  tax rates for states you plan to visit. 

[sparks1093]

4 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

Of all the people who do unskilled work, which despite being unskilled is also important, I don't understand why you believe waiters and similar occupations are worth so much more. There are so many vital jobs that simply do not have the opportunity to increase their earnings beyond minimum wage, as they have no public contact. So yes, waiters etc can earn good money, but personally they are not worth any more than any other minimum wage job. Just because a few people like a certain practice doesn't mean it's right, especially as I and others have said before, it completely distorts the economy of a country, and when I visit such countries, I don't want a rabble of porters trying to tear my suitcase out of my hand and then demanding money with menaces for me to get it back. Thankfully at home, we only tend to have porters in very expensive hotels that I don't use.

So you can't be bothered with tips because the staff isn't worth it, it's not about a concern for their welfare at all.

[c-boy]

 

This Thread is outta control 

[sparks1093]

3 hours ago, alc13 said:

Anecdotal data are not a good basis for general conclusions.  Every anecdote can be countered with another that contradicts it.  Tipping "works" in the sense that there is a stable economy based on it here in the US.  Whether it's good or bad for individual workers, employers, or customers is kind of beside the point.  

Since people are basing their view based on "employee welfare" and paying them "a livable wage" I think it's the main point. Again, as long as it's working for the employer and the staff that's all that matters to me.

[DirtyDawg]

24 minutes ago, CPT Trips said:

Yes. And Alaska is in Mexico, so no way can the former governor see Russia.

And those poor moose and bears will be so heat stroked wearing all that fur! 

[CPT Trips]

6 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

Yes, they can be paid less hourly but most states also have laws saying that if tips don't bring the total to the regular minimum wage for the week then the employer has to make up the difference. 

 

And here's another thing that I don't believe was mentioned that applies to land based establishments. Thanks to the IRS tipped employees are presumed to earn the recommended tip on each bill and the employer is expected to withhold taxes with that presumption in mind. So people that don't leave tips potentially cost the staff money in addition to shorting them.

It seems like that might result in negative paychecks for some waitstaff. The restaurant pays a low hourly rate to tipped staff, but has high prices. It’s quite likely that the payroll deduction for taxes and withholding would be more than $3.27 per hour actually paid to the employee.

[Peter Lanky]

7 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

So you can't be bothered with tips because the staff isn't worth it, it's not about a concern for their welfare at all.

 

I don't know how you are arriving at such a conclusion, as I've said nothing of the kind. I cannot accept that serving staff being able to earn money way above that which can be earned by other occupations of similar skill level is a good justification for having a tipping culture. If you are asking me if a serving person (who gets tips) is worth more than a nurse (who doesn't) then the answer is an emphatic no, as the latter is skilled.

[ColeThornton]

[Mike981]

18 hours ago, CPT Trips said:

Why do you think restaurants would be resistant? It’s not that I disagree with you. I just can’t understand why. To me it’s a “because, just because…” kind of thing.

 

 

Because they would have to pay more for to cover the wage the customers are paying.

 

14 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

When I travelled around America every time I got to the cash register tax was added to the price. And I don't even know what that rates were. For all I know they could be making it up😂. We could never find a list of all the different tax rates in the different states and different localities. From my experience of travel so far I haven't found a country that doesn't tax goods and services in some form or another. 

 

You can't even go by state taxes. Every municipality in my state can set there own tax rates. Cross the street it can be higher or lower.

 

7 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

Yes, they can be paid less hourly but most states also have laws saying that if tips don't bring the total to the regular minimum wage for the week then the employer has to make up the difference. 

 

And here's another thing that I don't believe was mentioned that applies to land based establishments. Thanks to the IRS tipped employees are presumed to earn the recommended tip on each bill and the employer is expected to withhold taxes with that presumption in mind. So people that don't leave tips potentially cost the staff money in addition to shorting them.

"Yes, they can be paid less hourly but most states also have laws saying that if tips don't bring the total to the regular minimum wage for the week then the employer has to make up the difference."

 

Good luck getting it enforced. If you push it, you will be working two hours next week.

 

On your last point, the IRS is just making a money grab. How can they set a "recommended" tip? It varies greatly based on your location, even in the same city.

 

5 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

 

Let's look at the last waitress that served us. Our bill was $100 and her tip was $20. We were there for just over an hour. If she did 4 other tables in that same hour with similar bills even if they only left 15% she made $80 in that hour. If her shift lasted 4 hours and she served no other customers she's netting $20 an hour from tips alone, plus the hourly rate she earns as a tipped employee. Well above minimum wage. That isn't a big stretch at all and the reality is that she actually made more then this example because it was a busy night. Working for tips isn't the easiest way to earn a living but a living can be earned from it. The system does work, even though you hate it. 

 

 

And then there are nights when they walk out with less than ten dollars in their pocket. That is a very small sample to what a "career" server would experience.

[sparks1093]

47 minutes ago, CPT Trips said:

It seems like that might result in negative paychecks for some waitstaff. The restaurant pays a low hourly rate to tipped staff, but has high prices. It’s quite likely that the payroll deduction for taxes and withholding would be more than $3.27 per hour actually paid to the employee.

Yes, that is something that can happen.

[sparks1093]

34 minutes ago, Mike981 said:

 

Because they would have to pay more for to cover the wage the customers are paying.

 

 

You can't even go by state taxes. Every municipality in my state can set there own tax rates. Cross the street it can be higher or lower.

 

"Yes, they can be paid less hourly but most states also have laws saying that if tips don't bring the total to the regular minimum wage for the week then the employer has to make up the difference."

 

Good luck getting it enforced. If you push it, you will be working two hours next week.

 

On your last point, the IRS is just making a money grab. How can they set a "recommended" tip? It varies greatly based on your location, even in the same city.

 

 

And then there are nights when they walk out with less than ten dollars in their pocket. That is a very small sample to what a "career" server would experience.

The IRS has it all figured out and have put out a publication about it. How they did it or whether it makes sense or not may be a different matter. Enforcement of any wage and hour regulation is always an iffy proposition but the laws are there. Yes, they will have some shifts that are dead, but at the end of the week they are typically making more than minimum wage. 

[sparks1093]

On 2/6/2022 at 2:05 PM, Peter Lanky said:

I don't think that anyone believes that non inclusive cruise prices wouldn't rise if cruise lines paid their staff properly with a minimum wage, pension plan and some decent conditions of service.

 

53 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

I don't know how you are arriving at such a conclusion, as I've said nothing of the kind. I cannot accept that serving staff being able to earn money way above that which can be earned by other occupations of similar skill level is a good justification for having a tipping culture. If you are asking me if a serving person (who gets tips) is worth more than a nurse (who doesn't) then the answer is an emphatic no, as the latter is skilled.

That's an excerpt from your first post and it sure sounds like you are concerned about the staff's welfare. I could have misread it. Life isn't fair and some people are able to earn more than others, whether or not that is "right" or "just". 

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

 but a small number who served food and drinks or serviced rooms on ships would be paid half that amount, and Mr Joe public would be responsible for the rest, either voluntarily or under threat of violence, based on a complex and completely unknown formula.

 

 

Mr Joe Public is responsible for the entire amount.  It is just how it gets into the employee's pocket that seems to be your issue.  

Threat of violence?  Come on now.  

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, CPT Trips said:

It seems like that might result in negative paychecks for some waitstaff. The restaurant pays a low hourly rate to tipped staff, but has high prices. It’s quite likely that the payroll deduction for taxes and withholding would be more than $3.27 per hour actually paid to the employee.

 

Actual wages paid include tips.   No restaurant worker is actually paid $3.27/hour in America. 

 

1 hour ago, Mike981 said:

 

And then there are nights when they walk out with less than ten dollars in their pocket. That is a very small sample to what a "career" server would experience.

 

You mean $10 of tips in their pockets, I'm sure.   No one walks out making less than minimum wage.  Anyone making less than $10 in tips during a dinner shift is working for a business in trouble. 

 

27 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Yes, that is something that can happen.

 

 

Possible but incredibly unlikely.  As you stated in previous posts wait staff are subject to minimum wage laws.  

 

I have one son who is in the restaurant business so I have some basis for my comments.   BTW, another of my sons worked as a bartender in a popular club while in college.  He made hundreds in tips on a Fri & Sat night.  Those of course were shared out with other staff like the bar backs.  Even so, he would have fought against anyone trying to "improve his situation" by eliminating tipping.   

[DirtyDawg]

1 hour ago, ColeThornton said:

Wow that guy is really working hard. He deserves a BIG Tip!

And another Big Tip...

And another Big Tip...

And another Big Tip...

And another Big Tip...

[Toofarfromthesea]

23 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

For the Brits on this thread tipping is just a North American thing just like driving on the wrong side of the road and Marmite are Brit things 😉. We like to have extra things added on in all sorts of areas of our lives. Sales taxes are added on, not like VAT which is included. Resort fees are added to the base hotel price. And in our football, we even have to add on an extra point after scoring a goal  to get the full points. You don't have to do that in your football! 🏈 ⚽

 

To you it's just Cheers! To us it's Cheers + 18%!  😁

 

Which conveniently obscures the amount the government takes out of your pocket.  Oh, people know it is there, but that is not like seeing how much it is on every single purchase.

[Toofarfromthesea]

8 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

Hiding it is right. Gasoline taxes are built into the price at the pump so the consumer is unaware exactly how much tax is being paid per gallon. It's been awhile since I've seen a breakdown but it's a good portion of the cost. 

 

Yes, it is always amusing to hear politicians complain about greedy oil companies who take all the risk and do all the work of producing gas and make a few cents per gallon while the govt., who do nothing, collect 18 cents at the federal level and up to 50 cents at the state level per gallon.  WHO is the profiteer here?

[KBs mum]

For us from the 'non tipping culture' contingent, the wierd thing is that a payment above the stated amount (on the menu or cost of cruise) is almost compulsory. For us a tip is appreciated but is not an expected or routine part of income. 

A good mandated minimum wage is good in that it helps protect employees from exploitative employers, most employees will earn more, if this is via tips, good for them, if via salaries also good for them. Either way as a customer I (in the UK) feel no pressure to add anything on top of the prices in the brochure or menu. If service is much better than the standard 'good' as might be expected from that type of premises, then we might leave a tip. It seems dubious to us that an employee might need to rely on an uncertain income via tips (where many factors that influence customer service may be out of their control) rather than a certain income via wages. 

 

We have noticed that food and drink in the US is about the same price as the UK for the type of establishment, when tips have been added to the menu prices (we do add tips when in the US, we think it an odd system, but it's your country, your rules) 

 

We cruise with Viking, for us gratuities are included in the brochure price, in the US they aren't. What is really nonsensical to us is that US people will pre pay the gratuities and then hand out cash on board, so tipping twice for the same thing. Can understand a one off gift of cash to an individual in these circumstances, but some seem to tip everyone on top of the gratuities

Edited February 13, 2022 by KBs mum

[DirtyDawg]

18 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Which conveniently obscures the amount the government takes out of your pocket.  Oh, people know it is there, but that is not like seeing how much it is on every single purchase.

But because the Brit education system, the average Brit can easily figure out what the government is taking. Over here, half the population couldn't figure it out unless it was printed on each and every purchase. 😁

[KBs mum]

21 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

But because the Brit education system, the average Brit can easily figure out what the government is taking. Over here, half the population couldn't figure it out unless it was printed on each and every purchase. 😁

Luckily VAT is usually 20%. I have to work it out to add to prices where I am employed. Bit of a ball ache when it was 17.5%🤨