Unusual/unpopular opinions

[shipgeeks]

I agree with so many of Hank's comments.

We, too, prefer late seating, and we like a leisurely meal with lots of conversation, and time to enjoy and digest several courses.

I was disheartened to read a recent post bemoaning the fact that dinners are taking 45 minutes to an hour!  Many people said that length of time is just not acceptable.

We had a conversation with a favorite waiter recently.  She stated that she does not like serving on the Anytime Dining floor.  We moved from set dining that cruise in order to be with her.  We had her excellent service, but the overall atmosphere was just different, and not in a good way.

I agree, and have told others, that the waiters are not mind readers.  Those who want to be in and out quickly can say so; the rest of us can make it clear that we aren't in a hurry.  When we have that, we do consider it Dining.

[ldubs]

On 10/21/2022 at 1:49 AM, Honolulu Blue said:

Well, since you asked... here's a detailed explanation of my logic:

 

1. I've read bunches of posts (too many) about cruisers who have picked up COVID-19 on their cruises.  The majority of them seem to be either on B2Bs or on extended cruises.
2. On longer cruises there's more time for the virus to show up
3. On longer cruises there's more time to do more risky things
4. How many of us dine in restaurants night after night on a cruise as compared to on land?  How many of us go to shows night after night?  How many of us sit by one of the many bars night after night?  How many of us go see comedians when they're offered?  How many of us go listen to the piano player?  How many of us go hang out by the atrium to do activities there?  And how often are we wearing respirators while doing these things??
5. The stories of how cruise lines treat passengers who test positive haven't changed much since the winter - they generally range from "could've been worse" to "OMG!!! This is the WORST!!!!"

 

Even the cruise lines seem to acknowledge the risk from longer cruises.  Otherwise why do or did they have more rigid test rules for lengthier cruises.  

[ldubs]

On 10/21/2022 at 10:22 AM, Mum2Mercury said:

Eh, this is the only one I accept.  If you're on, say, a three-night cruise, you're still going to be in close contact with the same people -- it's just that you go home before you discover you have the virus.  

 

 

You do not factor in that a longer period of exposure might cause more spread among all those people.  One hour among 3,000 people is not the same as 2 weeks among those same 3,000 people.  

[ldubs]

On 10/22/2022 at 10:08 AM, pete_coach said:

 

Because you have been on 32 cruises does not make you the rules maker of the cruise line.

 

Ignore big repeat customers.  That isn't exactly golden rule of a successful business.  

[ldubs]

On 10/22/2022 at 3:20 PM, Hlitner said:

DW and I actually prefer cabins forward of the forward elevators.  Having cruised extensively for about 50 years we are well aware of the stability offered by more central cabins (especially on lower decks) and the popularity of aft cabins (which we strongly dislike).  Most cruisers do not like forward cabins because they will have more movement if in rough waters.  So why do we like cabins up near the bow?  Consider that the main engines of any ship are arrayed around mid-ship.  On some ships, living over the engines can result is some annoying vibration but most modern ships have done a good job isolating engine noise and vibration.  The center of the ship is where you will have the most foot traffic (in the corridors) and you will generally pay the highest prices.  Some folks love the aft cabins, but these can suffer from a "shimmy" due to their location near the props. vibration from the props and cavitation, and possible soot on the balconies (which can ruin swim wear and clothes.  

 

Meanwhile, forward of the forward elevators you have much less foot traffic since most of the eating venues are aft.  There are also very few major mechanical systems on the forward quarter of the ship (with the exception of the bow thrusters) so we generally find the forward cabins very quiet except when the thrusters are in use.  Keep in mind that thrusters are only used when entering ports/docking and debarking.  Up front you might also hear the anchor chain if the ship is dropping or raising its anchor, but that does not generally happen during sleep time.

 

Hank

 

I try to avoid being forward of the forward elevators and aft of the aft elevators.  I want to have egress in all directions

[pete_coach]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

 

Ignore big repeat customers.  That isn't exactly golden rule of a successful business.  

Oh? They are in the business?

Point was, because someone has been on lots of cruise on a particular line and they do not like the lessening of dress does not mean it should not happen. Stagnating also loses business.

Edited October 24, 2022 by pete_coach

[ldubs]

2 minutes ago, pete_coach said:

Oh? They are in the business?

 

They meaning the cruise lines, yes.    

[pete_coach]

1 minute ago, ldubs said:

 

They meaning the cruise lines, yes.    

Was not responding to the cruise  line....

Was commenting on the topic.

[XBGuy]

I would like to thank @Hlitner and @shipgeeks for illustrating my point.  They explained how they can customize their cruise to give them maximum enjoyment.

 

I think I should also make sure that I cover one additional point.  Please do not consider any of my comments to be a complaint.  They are my opinions based on my observations.  Opinions are a bit like belly buttons.  I have mine and you have yours.  The worst cruise I have ever been on was wonderful.  I have no problem fully enjoying myself on a cruise.

 

Like you, @Hlitner, we enjoy wine with dinner every night.  Here is my strategy for ensuring good wine service on a cruise.  The first time we visit any of the ship's restaurants on any cruise, I will bring a bottle of my own wine.  Without exception when we are seated the headwaiter will inspect my bottle.  While he will, generally, offer a complimentary comment, we all know that he is inspecting the wine to make sure that the corkage fee has been paid.  More often than not he will start to leave with the wine list.  I stop him and ask that he leave the wine list.  If I brought a red wine, we will purchase a bottle of white wine off the list.  My wife, generally, prefers white wine.  More often than not, if we bring a white wine, I'll order a bottle of red wine for me.  I can't recall that we have ever finished off both wines.  We may ask them to store a partial bottle for us, or we may take the partial bottle back to our cabin, or we may leave a partial bottle on the table for staff.  In 100% of our experience, we have received excellent wine service on subsequent visits to that restaurant.

[ldubs]

15 minutes ago, pete_coach said:

Was not responding to the cruise  line....

Was commenting on the topic.

 

Me too.  I'm saying repeat customers do play a part in the rules that are set.  Though I do think the trends are definitely changing.   

[Hlitner]

10 minutes ago, XBGuy said:

I would like to thank @Hlitner and @shipgeeks for illustrating my point.  They explained how they can customize their cruise to give them maximum enjoyment.

 

I think I should also make sure that I cover one additional point.  Please do not consider any of my comments to be a complaint.  They are my opinions based on my observations.  Opinions are a bit like belly buttons.  I have mine and you have yours.  The worst cruise I have ever been on was wonderful.  I have no problem fully enjoying myself on a cruise.

 

Like you, @Hlitner, we enjoy wine with dinner every night.  Here is my strategy for ensuring good wine service on a cruise.  The first time we visit any of the ship's restaurants on any cruise, I will bring a bottle of my own wine.  Without exception when we are seated the headwaiter will inspect my bottle.  While he will, generally, offer a complimentary comment, we all know that he is inspecting the wine to make sure that the corkage fee has been paid.  More often than not he will start to leave with the wine list.  I stop him and ask that he leave the wine list.  If I brought a red wine, we will purchase a bottle of white wine off the list.  My wife, generally, prefers white wine.  More often than not, if we bring a white wine, I'll order a bottle of red wine for me.  I can't recall that we have ever finished off both wines.  We may ask them to store a partial bottle for us, or we may take the partial bottle back to our cabin, or we may leave a partial bottle on the table for staff.  In 100% of our experience, we have received excellent wine service on subsequent visits to that restaurant.

Good strategy :).  Our strategy varies depending on the situation.  Once, on a Princess cruise we happened to have a port day in Korcula.  We went on a private wine tour and one of the wines we sampled was a local wine made from the "Grk" grape.  This is a rather rare inexpensive grape that makes dry (but not overly dry) white.  We thought the wine interesting (not particularly good) and bought a bottle to take back to the ship.  That night we took it to dinner and when the head sommelier stopped by our table we asked him what he knew about "grl."  He was a master sommelier but had never heard of the grape (nor had we).  We told him we would drink about half the bottle and the rest was his to taste and share with his staff (this is when they still had staff).  We made a good friend for the rest of the cruise and there were some benefits ::).  

 

On our recent Seabourn cruise (27 day) we had a lot of OBC (over $1000) which is not refundable.  We had no way to use this money other than on wines (we do not generally buy cruise line excursions).  Determined not to leave unused OBC we decided to drink very good wines whenever we dined at the Thomas Keller alternative restaurant.  The first time we asked for the sommelier and tried to order a $400 Puligny Montrachet (we were both having Dover Sole).  The Sommelier said they did not have that specific wine but recommended a less expensive Puligny Montrachet (about $250) which was delicious.  We bluntly told him we had OBC to burn and wanted to spend it on some fine wines.  We dined 3 more times in that venue and always had amazing wines since the sommelier gave us personal attention and made excellent recommendations.  It was all good fun.  I will add that on lines like Seabourn, there are plenty of other folks who will spend on good wines.  For us, folks who generally do not want to spend more than $40 on a bottle, this was great fun.

 

Hank

[wowzz]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Thanks for the comments.  We do get it!  I think your issues are somewhat more dependent on the cruise line.  So, for example, why this might be the case on some mass market lines, we would not expect most of those issues on the luxury lines or even on ship within a ship situation such as in MSC Yacht Club's restaurant.   But having been at this cruise game for about 50 years we have learned some interesting factoids from crew friends.  Many cruise ship passengers want to eat early and eat fast.  They view more than an hour dining as too long and waiters often make the assumption that folks want things moved along.  This is even more true with early dining when staff has pressure on them to get folks out so they can get to the later diners.  Since we dine later, this is not a problem and we also let the waiter know that "we are not in a hurry" and to please not rush us.  Another habit we have developed is to not order our meal until after we have received our wine (we always drink wine with dinner).  This is because, in the past, we have often been well into our meal before our wine makes it to the table.  I think we could say that "we are going to dine" even if it is inconvenient to the crew.   

 

I cannot emphasize enough, that there is a big difference between early dining (perhaps up to about 7pm) and later dining.  If you ever manage to "connect" with a waiter and catch him/her in a quiet moment (this often happens with late diners) ask about the issue.  The relatively new trend (primarily among Americans) to dine early and dine fast is something that crusie lines must embrace.  When we sit down to a later dinner at 8pm on some ships (especially HAL) there are many folks already heading to their cabins for some TV and bed!  DW and I have often found ourselves in a piano bar (on the few ships that still have this venue) at 11pm when you could count the patrons on one or two hands!  Thousands on the ship, and only a few awake at 11.   When we dine late we sometimes do not leave the MDR until nearly 10pm (we will hustle if we are among the last...so the crew can finish).  

 

I have often wondered if the early American dining thing comes from the "early birds" in Florida :).  When we started cruising in the 70s, there were only two sittings (no open dining in those days) and the big demand was for the late dining which was sometimes as late as 8:30.  In those days early dining was something for folks traveling with little kids or the really old folks (that would be me these days) who wanted to finish dinner by 5:30.  Now, it is all reversed with it being easy to get into the MDR after 7:45 (on most ships).  One interesting tidbit about Seabourn is that their MDR does not even open until 7 pm (usually 7 to 9) \.  On a recent Seaborn Ovation cruise, we overheard one couple complaining that they like to eat dinner at 4:30 (that would be tea time).  When we have done some independent driving trips in Spain we have had to adjust to the fact that some restaurants do not even open until 9pm for dinner!  Imagine.

 

Hank

 

 

Hank - can we join your table! 

We too don't eat before 20:00 ( we lived in Spain for many years, so even that, as you say, is early), we like to share a table,  we like to take our time, and we enjoy wine. We actually normally carry a glass of wine into the MDR with us, so we can have a drink, while we decide what to drink with our meal !

And I admit to being totally bewildered as to why anyone would leave a warm, sunny deck in the Med or Caribbean at 17:00 to go and eat in the MDR.  

[Hlitner]

Just now, wowzz said:

Hank - can we join your table! 

We too don't eat before 20:00 ( we lived in Spain for many years, so even that, as you say, is early), we like to share a table,  we like to take our time, and we enjoy wine. We actually normally carry a glass of wine into the MDR with us, so we can have a drink, while we decide what to drink with our meal !

And I admit to being totally bewildered as to why anyone would leave a warm, sunny deck in the Med or Caribbean at 17:00 to go and eat in the MDR.  

We understand that many cruisers have no desire to share tables, and that is certainly their right.  But they miss out on an opportunity to make some fascinating new friends and share a great time.  Sometimes you get a lousy table, but we do open sitting and if we get a bad table we simply move on to other folks :).  A few years ago, when on a long HAL cruise we asked to share a large table (the first night) and got a table of 8 with us (2 Americans), a French-Canadian couple from far eastern Canada, a couple from Whales.  The table turned out to be amazing and so much fun we had folks (who heard us laughing throughout dinner) ask if they could join.  

 

Move ahead several years and we are on another cruise, get into an elevator the first day, and find that same French-Canadian couple (she is one of the funniest folks alive)!  We just looked at each other and started to laugh.  Needless to say, that night, the 4 of us formed a new table of 8 :).  At home DW and I are very private folks, but on cruises we love people.   At the risk of getting flamed, nearly all the fun tables we have had were later diners (on ships that means after 7).  Early diners seem to have an agenda of quickly getting through dinner so they can get to the show and enjoy the evening activities.  We later diners often find the best entertainment to be at our dinner table :).  And there is night life after 10 (at least on some ships).

 

Hank

[MelbTone]

7 hours ago, XBGuy said:

While he will, generally, offer a complimentary comment, we all know that he is inspecting the wine to make sure that the corkage fee has been paid.

Out of idle curiosity, how does he know? Do they put a 'corkage paid' sticker on the bottle?

[wowzz]

1 hour ago, MelbTone said:

Out of idle curiosity, how does he know? Do they put a 'corkage paid' sticker on the bottle?

In essence yes, or the label on the bottle is  "stamped".

[DirtyDawg]

12 hours ago, XBGuy said:

... I can't recall that we have ever finished off both wines.  We may ask them to store a partial bottle for us, or we may take the partial bottle back to our cabin, or we may leave a partial bottle on the table for staff.  In 100% of our experience, we have received excellent wine service on subsequent visits to that restaurant.

We also usually will not finish our bottle of wine at dinner so we either have them store it for the next night or we bring it back to our cabin. Am I assuming correctly that "leave a partial bottle on the table for staff" is done as a tip? Or was it just for the staff to clean up and toss out? I must admit I have never even thought of leaving a partial bottle on the table for staff as a tip. We usually will just use cash. If it was for a tip, is this practice popular or unpopular among cruisers?  

[wowzz]

2 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

We also usually will not finish our bottle of wine at dinner so we either have them store it for the next night or we bring it back to our cabin. Am I assuming correctly that "leave a partial bottle on the table for staff" is done as a tip? Or was it just for the staff to clean up and toss out? I must admit I have never even thought of leaving a partial bottle on the table for staff as a tip. We usually will just use cash. If it was for a tip, is this practice popular or unpopular among cruisers?  

And are staff actually allowed to consume left over alocohol ?

[cruisemom42]

Unpopular opinions:

 

• Cabin size or location doesn't matter to me in the least. I don't get seasick,  a little noise doesn't bother me, and I don't make enough use of a balcony to make it worth my while. Have had aft cabins with balconies twice -- meh.
• Who needs all the crap that many people claim to bring?  Never used (or needed) a laundry hamper, over-the-door organizer, flameless candles, wall magnets, special insulated mug or most of the other claptrap others tote along. 
• I am not a fan of towel animals. I think they are a bit creepy. 
• Ditto door decorations. To me they are jarring and cheap-looking. 
• I enjoy sharing a table at dinner most nights. Just got off a BTB of 19 days; it would have been pretty dull sitting on my own night after night...   But not at breakfast. Do not talk to me until I've been up several hours and/or consumed several coffees.
• I am not a fan of formal nights (which mostly don't exist on lines any more) but I do wish people would adhere to the minimum requirements for the main dining room at dinner. I don't want to see your hairy knees or toes, guys. And I don't need you to telegraph your latest slogan or vacation destination on your tee shirt or baseball hat.
• I don't care who the captain or his/her staff are onboard, but I do enjoy seeing them around, interacting with passengers. It's common on some lines and rare on others.

[Nebr.cruiser]

19 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Thanks for the comments.  We do get it!  I think your issues are somewhat more dependent on the cruise line.  So, for example, why this might be the case on some mass market lines, we would not expect most of those issues on the luxury lines or even on ship within a ship situation such as in MSC Yacht Club's restaurant.   But having been at this cruise game for about 50 years we have learned some interesting factoids from crew friends.  Many cruise ship passengers want to eat early and eat fast.  They view more than an hour dining as too long and waiters often make the assumption that folks want things moved along.  This is even more true with early dining when staff has pressure on them to get folks out so they can get to the later diners.  Since we dine later, this is not a problem and we also let the waiter know that "we are not in a hurry" and to please not rush us.  Another habit we have developed is to not order our meal until after we have received our wine (we always drink wine with dinner).  This is because, in the past, we have often been well into our meal before our wine makes it to the table.  I think we could say that "we are going to dine" even if it is inconvenient to the crew.   

 

I cannot emphasize enough, that there is a big difference between early dining (perhaps up to about 7pm) and later dining.  If you ever manage to "connect" with a waiter and catch him/her in a quiet moment (this often happens with late diners) ask about the issue.  The relatively new trend (primarily among Americans) to dine early and dine fast is something that crusie lines must embrace.  When we sit down to a later dinner at 8pm on some ships (especially HAL) there are many folks already heading to their cabins for some TV and bed!  DW and I have often found ourselves in a piano bar (on the few ships that still have this venue) at 11pm when you could count the patrons on one or two hands!  Thousands on the ship, and only a few awake at 11.   When we dine late we sometimes do not leave the MDR until nearly 10pm (we will hustle if we are among the last...so the crew can finish).  

 

I have often wondered if the early American dining thing comes from the "early birds" in Florida :).  When we started cruising in the 70s, there were only two sittings (no open dining in those days) and the big demand was for the late dining which was sometimes as late as 8:30.  In those days early dining was something for folks traveling with little kids or the really old folks (that would be me these days) who wanted to finish dinner by 5:30.  Now, it is all reversed with it being easy to get into the MDR after 7:45 (on most ships).  One interesting tidbit about Seabourn is that their MDR does not even open until 7 pm (usually 7 to 9) \.  On a recent Seaborn Ovation cruise, we overheard one couple complaining that they like to eat dinner at 4:30 (that would be tea time).  When we have done some independent driving trips in Spain we have had to adjust to the fact that some restaurants do not even open until 9pm for dinner!  Imagine.

 

Hank

 

 

I agree about the many who seem to want early dining.  I just don't get it, in fact we much prefer to eat later, usually around 8, after the first show, or even later.  I'm not ready to eat at 5:30 or six, hate rushing to get ready that early and enjoy the shorter (if any) lines to get into the dining room. That said, we're not especially fond of long drawn out meals either and usually eat by ourselves or with our travel companions, if we have any.  We don't eat particularly early at home either.

 

Also, we are not really hungry so early, having, unfortunately, eaten more during the day than we would normally and often enjoying a snack late afternoon after a day of touring or enjoying ship time.

[momofmeg]

21 hours ago, lenquixote66 said:

My best friend died from Covid.After that I have stayed out of crowds.

  I have lost friends too. My husband lost a cousin. My own daughter nearly died of Long covid. also, my niece and my cousin's daughter.  all 3 were in the hospital for over 2 weeks. That was all over a year ago, nearly 2 when the strains of COVID were killing people.  Yes, stay out of crowds as much as possible. But I refuse to stop flying (an airplane with 300 PAX is a crowd BTW.)  and although I have no interest in visiting a outdoor theme park if my family wants to do so, I am not complaining to them. Why would I when most people I know got COVID from a workmate.  It is what it is and it is here to stay. You can live in fear or take precautions and still try to enjoy life a little bit. I choose NOT to live in fear. Bye now.

[momofmeg]

3 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

We also usually will not finish our bottle of wine at dinner so we either have them store it for the next night or we bring it back to our cabin. Am I assuming correctly that "leave a partial bottle on the table for staff" is done as a tip? Or was it just for the staff to clean up and toss out? I must admit I have never even thought of leaving a partial bottle on the table for staff as a tip. We usually will just use cash. If it was for a tip, is this practice popular or unpopular among cruisers?  

 No, they will store your wine with your room # on it. My husband does it nearly every cruise.  No one has ever taken his.

[navybankerteacher]

32 minutes ago, momofmeg said:

 No, they will store your wine with your room # on it. My husband does it nearly every cruise.  No one has ever taken his.

This is standard across all lines with which I am familiar.  At the end of the meal, if there are just lees in the bottle, it is done;   If there is just enough for a small sip, I will have it;  if there is enough for a full glass or more, it will be saved for you.

[lenquixote66]

4 hours ago, momofmeg said:

  I have lost friends too. My husband lost a cousin. My own daughter nearly died of Long covid. also, my niece and my cousin's daughter.  all 3 were in the hospital for over 2 weeks. That was all over a year ago, nearly 2 when the strains of COVID were killing people.  Yes, stay out of crowds as much as possible. But I refuse to stop flying (an airplane with 300 PAX is a crowd BTW.)  and although I have no interest in visiting a outdoor theme park if my family wants to do so, I am not complaining to them. Why would I when most people I know got COVID from a workmate.  It is what it is and it is here to stay. You can live in fear or take precautions and still try to enjoy life a little bit. I choose NOT to live in fear. Bye now.

I respect your opinion

[XBGuy]

On 10/24/2022 at 9:01 AM, Hlitner said:

So, you have gotten my curiosity juices flowing.  Why do you say that "eating in the dining room is not dining?"  In the interests of full disclosure, DW and I generally dine later (after 7:30) and often like to share tables of 6 or 8.  We will often "dine" for over 1 1/2 hours and have a lot of fun socializing at dinner (we once had a Matire'd ask if he could join our fun table).  

 

Hank

 

 We just think it is more a banquet environment than a dining environment.

 

• Servers scurrying around with multiple covered dishes stacked on trays.
• Tables much to close together.  It is much too easy to eavesdrop on the conversation at the table behind me.
• I am not crazy about the server taking the  order of the neighboring table and, then, without moving his feet, looking at us and asking for our order.
• Servers sweeping away my salad plate with their right hand while in almost the same motion dropping my entree in front of me with  their left hand.  We like to linger between courses.

 

The OP asked if we had any views that might be deemed unpopular or unusual.  Based on my readings here on Cruise Critic the three comments that I made seemed to be minority opinions.

 

Also, though, I am really appreciative of the OP for starting this conversation.  It supports a point that I have made multiple times, here on Cruise Critic.  The great thing about cruising is that each individual passenger gets to customize their experience.  Just because I do not enjoy something does not mean it is not enjoyable for anybody else.  On any cruise that I have enjoyed, there have been many activities in which I did not participate and many venues that I never visited.  I would be willing to bet a fair amount of money that the vast majority of Cruise Critic participants have the same experience.  I, of course, also would never say that an activity or venue should not be included on any cruise because I do not care for it.  I do really enjoy seeing smiling passengers taking part in the activities that they enjoy.

 

 

[Drew B 58]

20 hours ago, Hlitner said:

We understand that many cruisers have no desire to share tables, and that is certainly their right.  But they miss out on an opportunity to make some fascinating new friends and share a great time.  Sometimes you get a lousy table, but we do open sitting and if we get a bad table we simply move on to other folks :).  A few years ago, when on a long HAL cruise we asked to share a large table (the first night) and got a table of 8 with us (2 Americans), a French-Canadian couple from far eastern Canada, a couple from Whales.  The table turned out to be amazing and so much fun we had folks (who heard us laughing throughout dinner) ask if they could join.  

 

Move ahead several years and we are on another cruise, get into an elevator the first day, and find that same French-Canadian couple (she is one of the funniest folks alive)!  We just looked at each other and started to laugh.  Needless to say, that night, the 4 of us formed a new table of 8 :).  At home DW and I are very private folks, but on cruises we love people.   At the risk of getting flamed, nearly all the fun tables we have had were later diners (on ships that means after 7).  Early diners seem to have an agenda of quickly getting through dinner so they can get to the show and enjoy the evening activities.  We later diners often find the best entertainment to be at our dinner table :).  And there is night life after 10 (at least on some ships).

 

Hank

I will add that on a cruise, you are typically already spending an awful lot of time with your travel companion(s).  Probably much more than you would in real life.  Engaging in conversation with them, you are unlikely to learn of new things, particularly things that could make the rest of your trip more enjoyable.  
 

When I have dined with just my travel companions, it tends to be a pretty quiet meal.  We’ve already exhausted most topics of conversation earlier in the day.  And an ice breaker like “What did you do today?” isn’t going to work because you already know what they did today!  At a shared table, it’s like you get to enjoy your own cruise AND live vicariously through someone else’s!