SpaceX-Starlink

[Randyk47]

46 minutes ago, turtlemichael said:

I’d think it a good idea to make sure your bank knows exactly what you are doing.

As a matter of habit we haven’t been contacting our bank or credit card companies about our cruises unless we were going to Europe.  Might talk to the bank about our next cruise.  Not Europe but 19 days so for us a long time away from home.    

[Host Jazzbeau]

The Starling map shows the 'land station' color extending out around every country it serves, so if a ship is near land it will probably be linking to the land stations rather than the satellites.  That would be what your bank saw.  [Either that, or the Captain has dubbed you a Nigerian Prince!!!]

[cruiseclubboy]

Currently on Silver Moon transatlantic voyage FLL-LIS. I don't think Starlink is installed here yet, as internet speeds are still painfully slow.  Just sayin.

[Randyk47]

25 minutes ago, cruiseclubboy said:

Currently on Silver Moon transatlantic voyage FLL-LIS. I don't think Starlink is installed here yet, as internet speeds are still painfully slow.  Just sayin.

I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread but as I recall SpaceX is focused on launching StarLink satellites over the major land masses but has plans to eventually provide coverage over the oceans.   One of the voids right now is the Atlantic.  Last article I read was that SpaceX just launched 52 new satellites on 17 March and that was their 18th launch of the year.  There are something like 3,700 StarLink satellites in orbit out of the 12,000 they have approval to launch and have further plans for up to 30,000 satellites,  

[les37b]

2 hours ago, cruiseclubboy said:

Currently on Silver Moon transatlantic voyage FLL-LIS. I don't think Starlink is installed here yet, as internet speeds are still painfully slow.  Just sayin.

if you run a speed test, it will tell you if it’s Starlink or something else.

 

 

I’ve actually found the most difficult site to connect to is Cruise critic, which often freezes and unable to log in.

[jollyjones]

I’m on the Moon too. According to the Reception people, Starlink equipment is installed but not yet in action. 
We are definitely still on the old system (I look at Speedtest too), but I’ve got to say the Wi-Fi has been better than usual - pretty consistently 2.75Mbps down 0.2Mbps up for premium. Even for premium, it often runs at 1.8 to 2.2 down so I’m happy enough with this. 
PS just checked and at even afternoon usage it’s showing 2.92 down, 0.33 up. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by jollyjones

[turtlemichael]

4 hours ago, Randyk47 said:

I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread but as I recall SpaceX is focused on launching StarLink satellites over the major land masses but has plans to eventually provide coverage over the oceans.   One of the voids right now is the Atlantic.  Last article I read was that SpaceX just launched 52 new satellites on 17 March and that was their 18th launch of the year.  There are something like 3,700 StarLink satellites in orbit out of the 12,000 they have approval to launch and have further plans for up to 30,000 satellites,  

Mind boggling!

 

[Randyk47]

20 hours ago, turtlemichael said:

Mind boggling!

 

It is mind boggling but speaks to the scope of the SpaceX StarLink project.  My son, who is a related IT business, says the satellites are surprisingly small at about 500 pounds each.  The satellites have an expected life of five years so it sounds like there will be new and replacement launches forever.   

[canderson]

On 3/21/2023 at 7:11 AM, Randyk47 said:

I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread but as I recall SpaceX is focused on launching StarLink satellites over the major land masses but has plans to eventually provide coverage over the oceans.   One of the voids right now is the Atlantic.  Last article I read was that SpaceX just launched 52 new satellites on 17 March and that was their 18th launch of the year.  There are something like 3,700 StarLink satellites in orbit out of the 12,000 they have approval to launch and have further plans for up to 30,000 satellites,  

Atlantic (and Pacific, and anywhere else where there's no land) may continue to be a non-starter for some years to come.  It's not because a large part of the constellation doesn't already traverse ocean waters -- they do -- it's that they have no ground stations to talk to out there in the middle of the ocean.  The thing people forget is that these satellites aren't big data servers floating around in space.  They serve as comm links to the servers on the ground.  They're also operating at a very low orbit, so they don't have much range at all to the horizon.  Figure the limit to be around 80 miles in any direction - or a diameter of about 160 miles.  There's a LOT of empty ocean that fits into that category.

 

Until it's possible to use Starlink satellites as data relays for one another so that those 'stranded' out in the middle of the ocean can use another Starlink satellite - or several of then in a daisy chain - to obtain a link to a ground station, there won't be Starlink service over much of the water surface of the planet, as Starlink Maritime's own coverage maps show.

 

To accomplish that now, one still needs satellites in high orbits with a wider view of the Earth's surface so that both the user and a ground station are in view simultaneously.  The downside to these satellites is that, all other things being equal, they're going to be slower (more power needed for less data) and have more latency in their communications (a simple function of distance up and back).

 

When they claim that Starlink Maritime is global, what they really mean is that it operates near land masses pretty much all around the globe. 

 

So if you're planning that big TransAtlantic cruise, you'll be glad a ship retained its old gear and laid in the Starlink equipment in parallel for use nearer land.

[Host Jazzbeau]

My understanding is that Starlink is more like a mesh network than the satellite-to-ground links we have been using.  That is, the ship communicates to the nearest low-orbit Starlink satellite, which pings the data to another Starlink satellite, and to another, until they reach a ground station.  That implies some latency, but high-orbit satellites have built-in latency because of their distance from Earth.

[canderson]

9 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

My understanding is that Starlink is more like a mesh network than the satellite-to-ground links we have been using.  That is, the ship communicates to the nearest low-orbit Starlink satellite, which pings the data to another Starlink satellite, and to another, until they reach a ground station.  That implies some latency, but high-orbit satellites have built-in latency because of their distance from Earth.

That's the plan, announced in August 2021, but the number of satellites deployed with that capability (laser cross-link communications between satellites) is so far only a fraction of the total.  So for the time being, most of the satellites are dependent upon ground station access.  Again, if you look at the current Starlink Maritime maps, they show coverage only in ocean areas near land.

 

So what you describe is the solution for the future, but hasn't been realized just yet.  The logistics will be a bit messy, since with an average in-orbit life of 5 years, the earlier birds without this capability will be holding up the show a bit, and may at times be in inconvenient locations in the constellation.

 

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

Except that I have seen reports from Transatlantic cruises with Starlink as the carrier. Those mid ocean birds are getting to the internet somehow. 

[Randyk47]

1 hour ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Except that I have seen reports from Transatlantic cruises with Starlink as the carrier. Those mid ocean birds are getting to the internet somehow. 

Kind of hit or miss.  From Starlink’s map it looks like from the Azores and east into most of Western Europe there is coverage.  West to the US East Coast has some coverage but by their own map Starlink is only partially implemented east of more or less the Mississippi River.   Doesn’t mean parts of the eastern states don’t have some access but maybe not full.  Maybe it’s speed, maybe there are just blacked out areas.  Beats me.  We obviously have service here and while it’s good to have access on a cruise it’s not a deal killer for us.  

[canderson]

3 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Except that I have seen reports from Transatlantic cruises with Starlink as the carrier. Those mid ocean birds are getting to the internet somehow. 

Service may well be thanks to keeping legacy systems available/switchable in parallel until Starlink's full cross-linking capabilities are near fully built out.  There will still be many gaps in coverage until then, and whether or not Starlink can perform in a given spot in the middle of the ocean will be a roll of the dice based upon the configuration of their  constellation in a given moment in time. 

 

 

[sea bright]

Canderson - thank you for a great explanation of the system and its challenges!

[canderson]

14 hours ago, sea bright said:

Canderson - thank you for a great explanation of the system and its challenges!

To clarify, Starlink has been launching satellites with more enhanced features in 'blocks'.  Everything they've launched since September 2021 (Blocks 1.5 and 2.0 models) has theoretically been capable of the laser 'cross-link' that I was describing earlier - what someone earlier related to a 'mesh network'.  But they had already launched about 1,500 (of the total 4,100 launched, 3,200+ that are presently of 'operational'; status) of the older Block 1.0 version by then, and still haven't nearly filled out the full constellation that would assure that these later models (block 1.5 and block 2.0) had visibility to another at all times.

 

[canderson]

14 hours ago, sea bright said:

Canderson - thank you for a great explanation of the system and its challenges!

Had to bone up on this a while back.  I accidentally 'un-retired' when a good friend called me about 2 years ago when his electronic/software guy gave two weeks notice.  That good friend is in the telescope business - and not the amateur stuff - the current job we're working on begins with a 51" (1.3m) diameter primary mirror, which he will proudly explain has been ground and polished in our own in-house optical shop.  I think the thing weighs over 500 pounds, so you can imagine what the supporting steel structure weighs.  The customer has a pic of the mirror being worked on their web site: https://www.mountcuba.org/copy-of-mirror-progress

 

Part of our business is involved with the optical side of the U.S. government's 'space situational awareness' program (a.k.a., GEODSS) that searches for and tracks whatever is up there in orbit, which is how we got wrapped around the satellite end of the axle vs. our more traditional business in celestial and solar telescopes.  My job, in either case, is to supply the control system that allows the customer to direct the telescope with both great accuracy and precision.  Low earth orbit satellites are a good bit tricker than stars.  With a star, you can put it in frame, go get a cup of coffee, and it's probably still there when you get back.  Well, almost anyway.

 

LEOs like Starlink, zooming overhead at 17,000+ mph (~95 minute orbits), are a much bigger trick, and require MUCH faster telescope accelerations and velocities, but it's really fun to watch the telescope dance (if you don't mind the math it takes to make it happen!)

 

[Stumblefoot]

1 hour ago, canderson said:

(if you don't mind the math it takes to make it happen!)

Cool!

 

Now, help me understand your avatar. Inquiring minds want to know.

[HappyCamper777]

27 minutes ago, Stumblefoot said:

Inquiring minds want to know.

Ha!  I have been wondering the same thing.

[canderson]

3 hours ago, Stumblefoot said:

Cool!

 

Now, help me understand your avatar. Inquiring minds want to know.

Mod Lois may remember it from many years ago - and the suspension of privs for a while for a whole group of us here back then.  It all had to do with a Ms. Brenda Moran who was 'excommunicated' by RCL back in 2007, and a court case, unrelated to cruising, having to do with use of pepper spray.  WD-40 was said to become her new defensive tool of choice at that time.

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

I thought it meant that you prefer the other ‘universal’ tool:  duct tape!

[HappyCamper777]

11 minutes ago, canderson said:

Mod Lois may remember it from many years ago - and the suspension of privs for a while for a whole group of us here back then.  It all had to do with a Ms. Brenda Moran who was 'excommunicated' by RCL back in 2007, and a court case, unrelated to cruising, having to do with use of pepper spray.  WD-40 was said to become her new defensive tool of choice at that time.

 

Thanks!  Sounds like a fun conversation over cocktails some time.

 

And, I had no idea @Lois R was the Moderator here in the SS forum.  Good to know!

[canderson]

3 minutes ago, HappyCamper777 said:

Thanks!  Sounds like a fun conversation over cocktails some time.

 

And, I had no idea @Lois R was the Moderator here in the SS forum.  Good to know!

Not sure whether she's a SS moderator or not, but she posts in various threads here.  Could be the fact that she cruises with SS rather than being a moderator.  Never thought to ask.

[irvington]

These explanations are really interesting. On a personal level, a bit of a bummer since I was thinking I could work during sea days on a transpacific cruise and that may be a bit of wishful thinking.

[canderson]

5 hours ago, irvington said:

These explanations are really interesting. On a personal level, a bit of a bummer since I was thinking I could work during sea days on a transpacific cruise and that may be a bit of wishful thinking.

It's been my impression so far that your service may not be any worse than it was prior to the Starlink installation.  Starlink provides an upgraded performance in its service areas, which covers a great deal of where a cruise ship goes, but I'm betting that most of the lines are leaving the legacy equipment in place to use as a fall-back when a particular itinerary (like a TA or TP cruise) puts them where Starlink isn't getting the job done yet.  They ain't fast, but that big band of geostationary satellites around the equator still provides at least a modicum of service as long as you don't get too close to the poles.

Edited March 25, 2023 by canderson