En Route with Hank in Japan and the Westerdam

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, bennybear said:

My point is that is not an apples to apples comparison,  crew on a luxury line or ship within a ship.  

Genuinely wondering how the non Yacht club service in MSC compares?  Not sure they sail in Japan.   Princess, Cunard and Celebrity do but mostly have shorter cruises, with less ports,  

I would agree that suites are another matter.  We enjoy the egalitarian approach on HAL, where some may prefer a more segregated experIence.   On HAL, The service and dining room are the same whether in an inside cabin or suite.  That may be a double edged sword for some.  

 

We have never cruises on MSC outside the YC.  But I would be on solid ground if I compared that to Carnival, RCI, or NCL in the normal cabins.  When we are on MSC we primarily go out of the YC for the nightly entertainment which included Production Shows (nearly every night)

and multiple live music lounges which will usually have rock, folk, country and jazz.  Unlike on HAL where you might have as few as one choice for live music (after 9), on MSC there might be 4 or 5 options.

 

The idea of a ship within a ship is to give those folks the atmosphere of a luxury cruise while also offering the variety and amenities found on mega ships.  If you do not want to sit in the YC Lounge and listen to a piano/singer duo, you can go elsewhere and hear a decent rock group, jazz quartet, etc.  All for far less than the cost of a Neptune.  
 

I might add that MSC has spun off a new luxury line called Explora Journeys.  They are building six 900 person luxury ships that are essentially all inclusive.  The cost of a suite on that all suite line can be as low as $500 per person/day which includes an assortment of dining venues.  Our opinion of that new line awaits our first cruise in the fall.  

Compare that to a Neptune plus Internet, tips, booze, etc in terms of cost. IMHO, Neptunes and Pinnacles are among the worst value in the entire cruise world along with the pricing of some Celebrity Retreat Suites.  For us, we look for value which is different than cheap.  Sometimes the best value can be among the most expensive cruises.

 

Hank

 

[cruisemom42]

4 hours ago, bennybear said:

Interesting that you find only a luxury line or ship within a ship surpassed them in service.   We found the Neptune concierge outstanding as well.  Wondering how you would compare that experience?  Or regular MSC? I always prefer comparing apples to apples. 

 

 

 

(Apologies for the long screed below. I had more to say than I thought about the issue of service and crew. 😕)

 

I have long heard passengers say HAL's service is "the best".  If I am completely honest, I have never noted any significantly higher level of service from the crew on HAL versus the crew on many other lines I've sailed on. 

 

To be fair I don't need/ask for/want much. In 28 days on Westerdam, I never asked my steward for one single thing beyond what was already on offer. I don't ask for ice or extra towels or a mattress topper or to have my minibar emptied or anything. And that's pretty much status quo for me. Same in the food department -- I don't have any allergies or dislikes or want my dressing on the side or no butter or to have my drink ready and waiting. I take it as I find it. I am very easy going. 

 

I don't chat up bartenders or cozy up to staff. It's just not me. 

 

That said, my own personal experience in recent years -- based on what I see crew doing for others more so than myself -- has been that Celebrity crew are just as happy, friendly, and willing to go the extra yard as any HAL team members. Perhaps more so.

 

The Cafe al Bacio on X is much better at quickly handling specialty coffee orders and getting them out to customers with a smile and minimal wait. The woman at the MDR podium on Celebrity knew my name and room number within two days on my cruise in October on a ship the same size as Westerdam and always greeted me with a smile and a "how was your day?". By contrast, on Westerdam the man at the MDR podium never engaged with me or acted like he even recognized me after 28 days. Every single time he asked for my room number -- and I ate the majority of breakfasts and dinners in the MDR, and just about every lunch that they were open.

 

I felt the bar staff in most areas on X circulate more, both indoors and outdoors. 

 

And I have always felt that the very visible presence of top officers onboard has an extremely positive effect on the morale of staff and crew teams onboard a ship. On X, the officers seem genuinely happy to be on board and are to be seen at mid-morning in the coffee bar or eating at a table in the buffet at noon or participating in various onboard events including games and entertainment.

 

While the captain on Westerdam wasn't completely invisible, he mostly showed up on planned and scripted occasions, except when he had a chance to answer a few questions during a morning Q&A. On Westerdam if you don't attend the welcome toast, you probably will have no idea who the senior officers are, whereas on X it seems like they are always introducing themselves and initiating conversations.

 

These comparisons are all post-Covid, as it doesn't seem fair to compare anything further back than that. HAL and X are pretty comparable lines. And my experiences are from ships of fairly equal size, age, and number of passengers, and on long-ish cruises.

 

Since the restart, I have also experienced or witnessed a few disturbing incidents involving staff/crew that lead me to think there are some serious "undertones" among these employees and that bothered me enough to stay with me and cause me to wonder at times whether I am really happy to continue supporting the cruising model for future travel. 

 

 

 

[bennybear]

@cruisemom42 thankyou for your insights.  I am concerned that you witnessed disturbing incidents.   Hopefully those things can be addressed.  The world seems to be a much less kind place of late, with less compassion and understanding.  
 

 

[USN59-79]

I am surprised that Hank thinks that a thousand dollars a day for a couple is a reasonable price.  That would have been $42,000. for our recent cruise.  HAL is so inexpensive that I don't have to think about it and there is more or a similar amount of cash in my checking account when I return as there was when I left.  

I thought the Captain was very approachable.  He stopped by our table in the MDR to chat a couple of times.  He has so much responsibility 24 hours a day I wouldn't expect more than that.

Ray

[Florida_gal_50]

7 hours ago, USN59-79 said:

I am surprised that Hank thinks that a thousand dollars a day for a couple is a reasonable price.  That would have been $42,000. for our recent cruise.  HAL is so inexpensive that I don't have to think about it and there is more or a similar amount of cash in my checking account when I return as there was when I left.  

I thought the Captain was very approachable.  He stopped by our table in the MDR to chat a couple of times.  He has so much responsibility 24 hours a day I wouldn't expect more than that.

Ray

I can hardly wait to see all these inexpensive prices.  My last cruise was a decent price but I didn’t book it until quite close to sailing.  Hope I see some of these inexpensive prices soon. You certainly don’t see them far out.  I see some kind of early pricing with something said about a low price guarantee iirc.  When you read all the verbiage around it it’s laughable.

[Hlitner]

7 hours ago, USN59-79 said:

I am surprised that Hank thinks that a thousand dollars a day for a couple is a reasonable price.  That would have been $42,000. for our recent cruise.  HAL is so inexpensive that I don't have to think about it and there is more or a similar amount of cash in my checking account when I return as there was when I left.  

I thought the Captain was very approachable.  He stopped by our table in the MDR to chat a couple of times.  He has so much responsibility 24 hours a day I wouldn't expect more than that.

Ray

It is “reasonable” when you consider what is included.  Consider that the overall space ratio is about double HALs.   You would also need to compare it to a small HAL Suite with everything included (tips, internet, premium booze, decent wine) no queues, decent cuisine you would not find on HAL, etc.  

 

I agree it does not fit every budget which is why we still mix in mass market cruises with our annual travel plans.  But when I am on a Seabourn ship where there is never a problem getting a lounger or seat, I can eat unlimited caviar, drink French Champagne (not the cheap Japanese sparkling wine served on our recent Westy cruise), have table side prepared whole Dover Sole, etc. etc. it does seem like a pretty decent value.

 

We have done more than our share of budget cruising (including inside cabins on budget lines) and also done luxury cruising.  To say we prefer the luxury product is an understatement.  At the moment, we consider HAL a mass market budget line given its constant supply shortages, minimal entertainment, quality/quantity of MDR servings, and a Lido that leaves much to be desired.

 

We would recommend HAL to those on a budget, that eats to live, drinks whatever happens to be available, is happy to go to bed early, and considers a BBC Documentary Movie adequate main entertainment.  And if you are happy to watch the Step One folks perform the same shows on a 2 week cycle than a long HAL cruise might also fit your demands.  And they are the sam exact shows  they have been performing for years.  Also consider that on our 6 week cruise they cancelled half their shows due to a moving ship.  Can you imagine?  Ships actually move upon the sea!

 

Hank

[mcrcruiser]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

It is “reasonable” when you consider what is included.  Consider that the overall space ratio is about double HALs.   You would also need to compare it to a small HAL Suite with everything included (tips, internet, premium booze, decent wine) no queues, decent cuisine you would not find on HAL, etc.  

 

I agree it does not fit every budget which is why we still mix in mass market cruises with our annual travel plans.  But when I am on a Seabourn ship where there is never a problem getting a lounger or seat, I can eat unlimited caviar, drink French Champagne (not the cheap Japanese sparkling wine served on our recent Westy cruise), have table side prepared whole Dover Sole, etc. etc. it does seem like a pretty decent value.

 

We have done more than our share of budget cruising (including inside cabins on budget lines) and also done luxury cruising.  To say we prefer the luxury product is an understatement.  At the moment, we consider HAL a mass market budget line given its constant supply shortages, minimal entertainment, quality/quantity of MDR servings, and a Lido that leaves much to be desired.

 

We would recommend HAL to those on a budget, that eats to live, drinks whatever happens to be available, is happy to go to bed early, and considers a BBC Documentary Movie adequate main entertainment.  And if you are happy to watch the Step One folks perform the same shows on a 2 week cycle than a long HAL cruise might also fit your demands.  And they are the sam exact shows  they have been performing for years.  Also consider that on our 6 week cruise they cancelled half their shows due to a moving ship.  Can you imagine?  Ships actually move upon the sea!

 

Hank

Hank then Carnival may be a better buy with their shows .The  food can't be worse .What do you think ?

[Hlitner]

33 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

Hank then Carnival may be a better buy with their shows .The  food can't be worse .What do you think ?

Haven’t been in Carnival for nearly 20 years so have no clue.  But, of the 16 lines that we have cruised, the current HAL entertainment would rank dead last…assuming other lines have also not downgraded their entertainment.  In over 50 years of cruising we have not been any other cruise that had an entertainment schedule worse than we just experienced in the Westerdam.  
 

And yes, we do understand that many HAL cruisers are in their cabins by 9 and could care less about what happens after that awfully late hour 😐. 

 

Hank

[USN59-79]

My point is that while inflation has caused many prices to double in the past 20 years, cruising on HAL is less expensive.  For example, in June, 2003 we took a 7-day Alaska cruise from Seattle on the Amsterdam.  Not sure of the cabin, but we usually booked insides on the Amsterdam.  The cruise cost, including taxes and port charges was $3360 for two people.  Incidentally, there were no charges for gratuities; you could tip if you wished.  Just looked at a 7-day Alaska cruise from Seattle on the Eurodam leaving 3 June.  An inside cabin is $529 and an oceanview is $579 per person.  Of course you would also pay $112. p/p more in gratuities.

Ray

[Florida_gal_50]

Yes if you book insides I can see cruises being very cheap.  I’ve done enough of that in my lifetime.  Having a balcony is a huge part of my enjoyment as I tend to spend a lot of time in my cabin after dinner.  I have zero desire to be around a lot of people.  I’m also not one of those people that puts down others for wanting decent entertainment.  Just because it means nothing to me I get that it does to others.
 

 

[Hlitner]

5 minutes ago, USN59-79 said:

My point is that while inflation has caused many prices to double in the past 20 years, cruising on HAL is less expensive. …..      

Ray

For us, it is less about “less expensive” and more about good value.  And there are times when you get what you pay for…..such as constant “supply chain” excuses, no more Lincoln Center groups,   no production shows, a single bar tender when there should be 3, a hotel general manager who hides from passengers (so as not to hear the complaints) etc.

 

But, if you are satisfied that is all that matters (to you).  We are far from satisfied so simply move on with other products.  Competition is a good thing and gives us all, many choices.

 

Hank

[Expo67]

2 hours ago, USN59-79 said:

My point is that while inflation has caused many prices to double in the past 20 years, cruising on HAL is less expensive.  For example, in June, 2003 we took a 7-day Alaska cruise from Seattle on the Amsterdam.  Not sure of the cabin, but we usually booked insides on the Amsterdam.  The cruise cost, including taxes and port charges was $3360 for two people.  Incidentally, there were no charges for gratuities; you could tip if you wished.  Just looked at a 7-day Alaska cruise from Seattle on the Eurodam leaving 3 June.  An inside cabin is $529 and an oceanview is $579 per person.  Of course you would also pay $112. p/p more in gratuities.

Ray

I believe for a true comparison you would need to broaden your numbers to include more than just a 7 day Alaska cruise less than 2  weeks out with reduced pricing to reduce inventory. Whether it may be due to inflation or price gouging if you compare future pricing out 6 months or more the prices in general have gone up between 20 - 25%. Example … the same cabin that I booked on the Koningsdam for the 35 night S. Pacific cruise last March for travel 2 months ago is now 25% higher in cost for the 2024 S. Pacific cruise with fewer perks. 🤔

[Expo67]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

For us, it is less about “less expensive” and more about good value.  And there are times when you get what you pay for…..such as constant “supply chain” excuses, no more Lincoln Center groups,   no production shows, a single bar tender when there should be 3, a hotel general manager who hides from passengers (so as not to hear the complaints) etc.

 

But, if you are satisfied that is all that matters (to you).  We are far from satisfied so simply move on with other products.  Competition is a good thing and gives us all, many choices.

 

Hank

So Hank I know you told us awhile back (actually quite awhile back) that one could get the same perk status for the YC on MSC if they had perk status on other lines. Could you again enlighten this forgetful elder what line or lines they were?

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, Expo67 said:

So Hank I know you told us awhile back (actually quite awhile back) that one could get the same perk status for the YC on MSC if they had perk status on other lines. Could you again enlighten this forgetful elder what line or lines they were?

MSC does some kind of status match when using any cruise line or hotel chain. 
But if you are in the YC you really do not benefit other than a 5% discount since YC gets you most things.

 

We used ourHAL status with MSC a few years ago.

[Expo67]

25 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

MSC does some kind of status match when using any cruise line or hotel chain. 
But if you are in the YC you really do not benefit other than a 5% discount since YC gets you most things.

 

We used ourHAL status with MSC a few years ago.

Thanks Hank for the info. I remember you mentioning it but forgot all the requirements. 👍

[ontheweb]

16 hours ago, USN59-79 said:

I am surprised that Hank thinks that a thousand dollars a day for a couple is a reasonable price.  That would have been $42,000. for our recent cruise.  HAL is so inexpensive that I don't have to think about it and there is more or a similar amount of cash in my checking account when I return as there was when I left.  

I thought the Captain was very approachable.  He stopped by our table in the MDR to chat a couple of times.  He has so much responsibility 24 hours a day I wouldn't expect more than that.

Ray

At a $1000 per day, at least they would not have to overcharge on drinks and excursions to make their revenue. 😉

[Stateroom_Sailor]

I spoke to a couple who sailed on one of the first cruises after the shutdown, Westerdam in the South Pacific.  They lost AC while in Indonesia, which was hot and humid near the equator.  Their friends (first time HAL cruisers) got their cabin flooded out.  All the ship would compensate them for was $150 OBC.

 

The couple writes this off as a restart hiccup and are still very enthusiastic HAL cruisers. 

[Mary229]

4 minutes ago, Stateroom_Sailor said:

I spoke to a couple who sailed on one of the first cruises after the shutdown, Westerdam in the South Pacific.  They lost AC while in Indonesia, which was hot and humid near the equator.  Their friends (first time HAL cruisers) got their cabin flooded out.  All the ship would compensate them for was $150 OBC.

 

The couple writes this off as a restart hiccup and are still very enthusiastic HAL cruisers. 

Did they also get a new cabin?

[Mary229]

Correct me if I am wrong but a major complain in this thread was the entertainment was lacking (I agree with this).  It is my understanding on small luxury ships there is very limited entertainment, right?  So paying a $1000 a day may get you better food but you still have little entertainment.  My solution is : selecting the itinerary I want for the best value I can find then spending like a drunken sailor onshore, which is what I do.  
 

As to the small overcharges - use the app.  For me that falls into the “life is not perfect” category and would not sway my decision whether to cruise with a line again.

[BermudaBound2014]

6 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

..... then spending like a drunken sailor onshore...

 

Hi again Buddy 🙂

[USN59-79]

4 hours ago, Expo67 said:

I believe for a true comparison you would need to broaden your numbers to include more than just a 7 day Alaska cruise less than 2  weeks out with reduced pricing to reduce inventory. Whether it may be due to inflation or price gouging if you compare future pricing out 6 months or more the prices in general have gone up between 20 - 25%. Example … the same cabin that I booked on the Koningsdam for the 35 night S. Pacific cruise last March for travel 2 months ago is now 25% higher in cost for the 2024 S. Pacific cruise with fewer perks. 🤔

You have a point, so I looked at the same Alaska cruises from Seattle a few months out.  For the Westerdam, 27 August, inside $538, OV $677, and balcony $1142.  For the Eurodam, 26 August, inside $611, OV $652, and balcony $1151 p/p.  These prices are still less than half of what we paid 20 years ago even comparing a balcony to an inside.  To put it into another context, in 1999 I bought a new Toyota Tacoma SR5 pickup for $14,000.  That same pickup today would be about $30,000.  Incidentally, I am comparing a 7-day Alaska cruise out of Seattle as that is what I took 20 years ago; thus apples to apples.

Ray

[Florida_gal_50]

35 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

Correct me if I am wrong but a major complain in this thread was the entertainment was lacking (I agree with this).  It is my understanding on small luxury ships there is very limited entertainment, right?  So paying a $1000 a day may get you better food but you still have little entertainment.  My solution is : selecting the itinerary I want for the best value I can find then spending like a drunken sailor onshore, which is what I do.  
 

As to the small overcharges - use the app.  For me that falls into the “life is not perfect” category and would not sway my decision whether to cruise with a line again.

I feel the app is good for getting rid of small charges, not so much for the big ones. Some ships have it together.  I don't recall any incorrect charges on my last cruise.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

31 minutes ago, USN59-79 said:

You have a point, so I looked at the same Alaska cruises from Seattle a few months out.  For the Westerdam, 27 August, inside $538, OV $677, and balcony $1142.  For the Eurodam, 26 August, inside $611, OV $652, and balcony $1151 p/p.  These prices are still less than half of what we paid 20 years ago even comparing a balcony to an inside.  To put it into another context, in 1999 I bought a new Toyota Tacoma SR5 pickup for $14,000.  That same pickup today would be about $30,000.  Incidentally, I am comparing a 7-day Alaska cruise out of Seattle as that is what I took 20 years ago; thus apples to apples.

Ray

Ray, to see where HAL stands in this is to then look at this same date for Alaska end of August and look at Princess, NCL, Celebrity and RCL

These are lowest price for each category or remaining categories

Discovery Princess Aug 27  Inside $824  OV SOLD OUT  Balcony $1213

NCL Encore Aug 27             Inside  $879  OV $1319          Balcony $ 1649

Celebrity   Sept 1                 All Categories Sold out

RCL Quantum OFS              Inside $ SOLD OUT OV$ $1619 Balcony  $1839 

 

All four of these have very limited availability yet both Westerdam and Eurodam are pretty much wide open with no categories really closed....My Question is Why is This? The other cruise line pricing is considerablyhigher exception is Princess but they are still higher. HAL should be able to have the same prices as Princess or even higher but they do not. I agree HAL pricing should be a lot higher but they are not. 

[Mary229]

35 minutes ago, LAFFNVEGAS said:

All four of these have very limited availability yet both Westerdam and Eurodam are pretty much wide open with no categories really closed....My Question is Why is This?

If it is like last summer it is because HAL has gone all in on Alaska and has a large percentage of its fleet there.  RCCL and NCL have fewer ships and there loyal followers will use them if they choose Alaska. 
 

to do a proper analysis you would need to know passenger numbers, demographics and past sailing history of those passenger.  You would need to also calculate total berths which should be easy to do

Edited May 15, 2023 by Mary229

[Stateroom_Sailor]

2 hours ago, Mary229 said:

Did they also get a new cabin?

 

The couple onboard without AC, no.  The couple with the flooded room, I am not sure.  I assume the leak was fixed and room dried out either way.

 

The ship would have been below capacity with the restart, so I don't get it, unless the AC systems cool multiple rooms.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Stateroom_Sailor