How Crowded Is Europe Right Now?

[DarrenM]

14 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

Some of my most pleasant visits to London were in January. The weather is clement, at least from a Canadian's perspective, there is little or no wait at the major attractions, theatre tickets are readily available and there are excellent January sales at most of the major retailers. 

 

 

And it's the football season.

 

And the pubs are great in winter.  Proper pubs that is. Not the ones pretending to be pubs that are really cheap restaurants. Or poser bars.

 

London has loads of fantastic historic pubs.

 

And getting a real ale and sitting next to a warm fire is heaven.

[DarrenM]

The best bits of London are places like Borough Market and Brick Lane.

 

And avoiding the underground. Which is as close to hell as I could imagine.

 

Places to avoid:

 

Buckingham Palace

Leicester Square

Piccadilly circus

Oxford Street

 

Tourist hell holes.

[ldubs]

10 hours ago, DarrenM said:

The best bits of London are places like Borough Market and Brick Lane.

 

And avoiding the underground. Which is as close to hell as I could imagine.

 

Places to avoid:

 

Buckingham Palace

Leicester Square

Piccadilly circus

Oxford Street

 

Tourist hell holes.

 

I was at Piccadilly Circus the first time over 20 years ago.  Last time I was there was maybe 2018.  Seems they had rerouted the street and it was no longer a "circus".   Or, just as likely my memory is faulty.   

 

I don't follow why a tourist should avoid the underground. In the past we found it to be a very convenient way to move around London.   Has it declined?  

 

Borough market looks fantastic.  Way back when we were at a large open market hall, but don't think it was Borough Market.  Can't remember the name, but it was a lot of fun.   

[ldubs]

On 7/18/2023 at 7:13 AM, cruisemom42 said:

 

I assume (hope?) this was meant to be tongue in cheek. One reason I like to do things on my own while traveling (e.g., use local buses, subway, trains where possible to get myself around) is to avoid traveling in that bubble that a lot of tourists have where the only real interaction they have during a port visit is probably with their bus tour guide a driver.

 

As Rick Steves famously said, it's hard to get a sense of a place with your face pressed against the window of a bus.

 

 

To be fair, I think a private car/driver/guide is an entirely different experience than a large group tour on a bus.   

[cruisemom42]

3 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

To be fair, I think a private car/driver/guide is an entirely different experience than a large group tour on a bus.   

 

Yes, but it is still a bubble where you have little chance of experiencing the city as anything other than a few (hopefully meaningful) blips on the radar. 

[ldubs]

11 hours ago, DarrenM said:

And it's the football season.

 

And the pubs are great in winter.  Proper pubs that is. Not the ones pretending to be pubs that are really cheap restaurants. Or poser bars.

 

London has loads of fantastic historic pubs.

 

And getting a real ale and sitting next to a warm fire is heaven.

 

What differentiates a proper pub from a cheap restaurant or bar?  Been to London many times and can't say I've actually been to a proper pub.  Seems something I should do.   

[ExpatBride]

2 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

What differentiates a proper pub from a cheap restaurant or bar?  Been to London many times and can't say I've actually been to a proper pub.  Seems something I should do.   

 

If it's ancient and crooked and the windows are so old that the glass is kind of wavy, you're on the right track.

 

18 minutes ago, ldubs said:

   I don't follow why a tourist should avoid the underground. In the past we found it to be a very convenient way to move around London.   Has it declined?   

 

I don't get this, either. I've always found it to be very convenient and efficient.

[ldubs]

2 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Yes, but it is still a bubble where you have little chance of experiencing the city as anything other than a few (hopefully meaningful) blips on the radar. 

 

I'm going to disagree about seeing only a few blips on the radar.  We had a private car & guide in Beijing.  Besides the popular sites, we were provided a lot of exposure that we would never have been able to do on our own.   

[cruisemom42]

2 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

I'm going to disagree about seeing only a few blips on the radar.  We had a private car & guide in Beijing.  Besides the popular sites, we were provided a lot of exposure that we would never have been able to do on our own.   

 

I'll take your word for it; China is still on my bucket list.

 

However, the thread is about Europe and that's what I was focusing on.

[ldubs]

Just now, cruisemom42 said:

 

I'll take your word for it; China is still on my bucket list.

 

However, the thread is about Europe and that's what I was focusing on.

 

Replace Beijing with any European city.  My point is, unless that is what someone wants, a private guide & car is nothing like being on a huge tour bus with the typical rigid schedules. Besides not being stuck with a large group, you control the experience by simply communicating your preferences.    

[cruisemom42]

4 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Replace Beijing with any European city.  My point is, unless that is what someone wants, a private guide & car is nothing like being on a huge tour bus with the typical rigid schedules. Besides not being stuck with a large group, you control the experience by simply communicating your preferences.    

 

Guess we will just differ on this. 

 

Everyday Italians aren't driving around their cities in luxury sedans. For me, part of the experience is doing things as locals do them and trying not to contribute to the tourism ecosystem (which ends up strangling the cities and giving them that Disneyfied feeling) but rather to the local infrastructure.

 

[ldubs]

1 minute ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Guess we will just differ on this. 

 

Everyday Italians aren't driving around their cities in luxury sedans. For me, part of the experience is doing things as locals do them and trying not to contribute to the tourism ecosystem (which ends up strangling the cities and giving them that Disneyfied feeling) but rather to the local infrastructure.

 

 

Luxury sedan?  I was in a Buick.  🙂

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Guess we will just differ on this. 

 

Everyday Italians aren't driving around their cities in luxury sedans. For me, part of the experience is doing things as locals do them and trying not to contribute to the tourism ecosystem (which ends up strangling the cities and giving them that Disneyfied feeling) but rather to the local infrastructure.

 

Agreed - mass transit in major European cities is usually the best way to get around.  You need to do your homework - figure what/where then plan routes.  Of course there  are caveats (I lost my wallet to a nimble-fingered dip on the A in Rome) but stuff happens everywhere.  I also liked the trams in Rome - definitely worth the prep time in advance — but I had a hard time learning the busses.

[cruisemom42]

14 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

 I also liked the trams in Rome - definitely worth the prep time in advance — but I had a hard time learning the busses.

 

You may be smart to avoid the buses. Every year around 10-12 city buses in Rome go up in flames. This has been happening at least since 2018, locals blame it on poor maintenance and old stock. Most times passengers are able to exit the bus without any injuries.

 

The phenomenon actually has a name -- Romans refer to it as "Flambus". 😨

 

 

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Agreed - mass transit in major European cities is usually the best way to get around.  You need to do your homework - figure what/where then plan routes.  Of course there  are caveats (I lost my wallet to a nimble-fingered dip on the A in Rome) but stuff happens everywhere.  I also liked the trams in Rome - definitely worth the prep time in advance — but I had a hard time learning the busses.

 

I was on the old tram cars in Lisbon 5 different times during a trip earlier this year.   I managed to get lost or miss my station 5 times.  

 

I generally can do well with trams, streetcars, metro systems, but always have a hard time understanding the bus routings.   I think that is partially because I never used city buses in my home county when I could have.   I'm just not comfortable with using them and befuddled by metro bus service in general.   

[Turtles06]

4 hours ago, ldubs said:

don't follow why a tourist should avoid the underground. In the past we found it to be a very convenient way to move around London.   Has it declined?  

Been to London many times, most recently last fall. The tube is still imho the fastest and most efficient way to get around the city. Even at 11pm after the theatre, there was very little wait for a train.  Would that subway systems in American cities operated as well.  
 

No reason for visitors to avoid the tube. 
 

[navybankerteacher]

32 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

I was on the old tram cars in Lisbon 5 different times during a trip earlier this year.   I managed to get lost or miss my station 5 times.  

 

I generally can do well with trams, streetcars, metro systems, but always have a hard time understanding the bus routings.   I think that is partially because I never used city buses in my home county when I could have.   I'm just not comfortable with using them and befuddled by metro bus service in general.   

I grew up in Manhattan - know the 1, 4 and 15 bus routes — and the crosstown  34, 50, 66,72, 79, 86, and 96 routes. Other than those, it’s subways and taxis.

[ldubs]

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Guess we will just differ on this. 

 

Everyday Italians aren't driving around their cities in luxury sedans. For me, part of the experience is doing things as locals do them and trying not to contribute to the tourism ecosystem (which ends up strangling the cities and giving them that Disneyfied feeling) but rather to the local infrastructure.

 

 

To be fair, what I originally said was the experience of a tour bus group and a private car/guide are not the same things.  I think that is what we differ(ed) about.  

   

[Turtles06]

4 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

I'm going to disagree about seeing only a few blips on the radar.  We had a private car & guide in Beijing.  Besides the popular sites, we were provided a lot of exposure that we would never have been able to do on our own.   

 

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I'll take your word for it; China is still on my bucket list.

 

 

It’s been a decade, but we spent several days on our own in Beijing on the front end of a fantastic land tour/river cruise with Viking (that ended in Shanghai). We took the Beijing subway a number of times. It was (and I assume still is) well run and easy to navigate (including signs In English). 
 

We also had a private guide for part of our pre-Viking time. We took the subway with her as well, and also, by car (no limo, 😊) drove out to the section of the Great Wall at Mutianyu, and made some stops back in Beijing. 
 

And Viking had us on buses, with a phenomenal local guide. 
 

So I guess we experienced most ways to get around. 😊

 

@cruisemom42 I’m confident you would get around fine on the Beijing subway. 😊

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

You may be smart to avoid the buses. Every year around 10-12 city buses in Rome go up in flames. This has been happening at least since 2018, locals blame it on poor maintenance and old stock. Most times passengers are able to exit the bus without any injuries.

 

The phenomenon actually has a name -- Romans refer to it as "Flambus". 😨

 

 

I recall the questionable condition of those few Rome busses I rode. A couple of times, thinking myself on a bus bound for Termini , being ejected onto the street due to “mechanical conditions”.

 

[SelectSys]

8 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

mass transit in major European cities is usually the best way to get around.  You need to do your homework - figure what/where then plan routes.

Having access to the internet and accessing things like google has largely eliminated the "homework."  When I want to go somewhere, I simply plug in the address and time I want to go and let the planning software indicate which busses and/or trains to take.  It really simplifies the process of getting from point A to B.

[SelectSys]

6 hours ago, ldubs said:

I generally can do well with trams, streetcars, metro systems, but always have a hard time understanding the bus routings.   I think that is partially because I never used city buses in my home county when I could have.   I'm just not comfortable with using them and befuddled by metro bus service in general

I understand this sentiment as the bus networks are much more dense in cities.  Letting tools like google plan your route truly makes a difference to me and makes the bus much more approachable.

[Kristelle]

I went o n the underground in London 10 yrs ago with no problems.

 

not exactly a tourist this time but we are staying in hotel and visiting family before our cruise

 

Said family live in London and told us easiest way to get to them is via the underground - I don't think they would suggest that if it were "close to hell" .

[K32682]

On 7/24/2023 at 2:54 AM, DarrenM said:

The best bits of London are places like Borough Market and Brick Lane.

 

And avoiding the underground. Which is as close to hell as I could imagine.

 

Places to avoid:

 

Buckingham Palace

Leicester Square

Piccadilly circus

Oxford Street

 

Tourist hell holes.

 

I don't disagree but first time visitors to London should see those "tourist hell holes" at least once.

 

The tube isn't quite "close to hell" and is a good way to get from point A to point B in a short time. If you are in less of a hurry take the bus. Another option is the Thames water taxis if you are going from Westminster to the Tower or to Greenwich. The rides above ground and on water are infinitely more entertaining than the tube. 

 

 

[Kristelle]

9 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

.

 

The tube isn't quite "close to hell" and is a good way to get from point A to point B in a short time. If you are in less of a hurry take the bus. Another option is the Thames water taxis if you are going from Westminster to the Tower or to Greenwich. The rides above ground and on water are infinitely more entertaining than the tube. 

 

 

 I guess that depends on the purpose of one's journey - if I wanted entertainment and sightseeing, and the journey 'being part of the destination' I would go on HOHO London double decker bus or a boat trip on the Thames.

 

If I want to just get from A to B in easy quick cheap method, underground is the go.