Container Ship Struck Key Bridge in Baltimore, Bridge has Collapsed

[Cru1s1ng2009]

57 minutes ago, toad455 said:

Two people have just been recovered from the waters alive.

OMG it is a miracle considering how long they have been in the water. 

 

[gumshoe958]

4 minutes ago, BND said:

Anthem is currently the only ship going in and out of Bayonne and the schedule shows availability on 4,12 and 20 April.  Anthem is not scheduled on those days.

Even in the peak summer vacation months of July & August there are many days when Bayonne has no ships scheduled.
 

So availability isn’t an issue although of course there may have to be some tweaks to Vision’s itineraries - the odd day added or taken away - to make the schedules align. 
 

But Bayonne seems by far the most logical and sensible option for a temporary home port for Vision. I95 links them both and Amtrak runs trains between Baltimore and Newark as often as every 20 minutes. I’d be amazed if Royal opts for another solution.

[The Grumpus]

16 minutes ago, nelblu said:

Not familiar with the Baltimore harbor and wondering any possibility of tendering passengers to shore.

It's possible they could tender passengers off the ship and have busses waiting at a pier at Sparrows Point, which is outside of the bridge.  From there it's about a 20-minute bus ride to Seagirt Cruise Terminal.  I don't know what condition the piers at Sparrows Point currently are for this to happen and if there's a possibility they could just dock the ship there to unload.  I seriously doubt Sparrows would be a viable alternative to Seagirt to continue sailings from, only a one time emergency off-load of the passengers.  I would take that over debarking from Bayonne.

[smokeybandit]

31 minutes ago, RobInMN said:

Living in the Twin Cities, this reminds me most of the I-35W bridge collapse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge

 

Collapsed August 1, 2007. They immediately got to work and I think by the next day they had everyone they needed in a room and made a plan using design-build project planning. Awarded a contract Sept 19, 2007, and the new bridge was completed 3 months ahead of schedule Sept 18, 2008.

There was a MNDOT manager that was a frequent contributor to a local political pod cast (had been doing so long before the collapse) that gave updates. But since then also gave in-depth accounts of the process in the immediate hours, and days that was really interesting. Unfortunately, with the podcast defunct, I don't think those recordings exist anymore.

 

Obviously, this is a lot larger span with a lot more serious economic impacts, but the immediacy of getting the bridge replaced is very similar. 

The big difference here is the strict environmental concerns with the Chesapeake Bay.

[A&L_Ont]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

I don't know who this blogger is, or what his maritime experience is, but it has some errors in his analysis.

 

The most glaring error is when he says that the black smoke coming from the ship indicates an "engine problem".  This is not correct.  The type of diesel engines used on ships like this, are connected directly to the propeller, and are required to stop whenever the propeller is needed to be stopped, or reversed.  Therefore, the engine needs to stop and restart when going from ahead to astern, and this always results in a cloud of black smoke when the engine starts.  Also, if the engine is immediately placed to a "full astern" bell, the black smoke will continue until the turbocharger catches up with the air needed by the engine at that high load.  And, the engine that drives the propeller is not the engine that provides electricity to the ship, so when the generator engine failed, causing the black out, the "main engine" that drives the propeller stops as well, so when power comes back on, it restarts, causing the black smoke again.

 

He also claims that by backing down (going stern to stop the ship), the ship will veer to one side or another (and this is correct), but that if they continued to allow the ship to glide forward without propulsion, that they would have had "some control".  This is also not correct.  A traditional rudder loses effectiveness when the speed of the ship through the water is less than 5 knots (that's why ships use thrusters to swing ships at the dock, and tugs to push the ship when operating at low speed along the dock).  So, there would have been almost no benefit from the rudder when coasting forward.

 

Steering would also not be lost when the power went out.  One of the two electro-hydraulic steering systems is powered by the emergency generator (which comes on automatically when the ship loses power), and when in confined waters (under a pilot's orders), this is the steering system that would have been in use, just because this could have happened.

 

I can't remember other things he said, but it may come to me later.

Chief, you need to start your own YouTube channel.  

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

The big difference here is the strict environmental concerns with the Chesapeake Bay.

Not sure there is a difference, since both are on "navigable waters" of the US, and therefore under Federal jurisdiction, and Federal environmental laws.

[BND]

7 minutes ago, gumshoe958 said:

 

So availability isn’t an issue although of course there may have to be some tweaks to Vision’s itineraries - the odd day added or taken away - to make the schedules align. 
 

 

That was my point.  Anthem is NOT in Bayonne on the days that Vision is scheduled to sail and return for the next two cruises prior to drydock.

[Another_Critic]

8 minutes ago, The Grumpus said:

It's possible they could tender passengers off the ship and have busses waiting at a pier at Sparrows Point, which is outside of the bridge.  From there it's about a 20-minute bus ride to Seagirt Cruise Terminal.  I don't know what condition the piers at Sparrows Point currently are for this to happen and if there's a possibility they could just dock the ship there to unload.  I seriously doubt Sparrows would be a viable alternative to Seagirt to continue sailings from, only a one time emergency off-load of the passengers.  I would take that over debarking from Bayonne.

The current Maryland cruise terminal is at Locust Point, not Seagirt.

[gumshoe958]

8 minutes ago, The Grumpus said:

It's possible they could tender passengers off the ship and have busses waiting at a pier at Sparrows Point, which is outside of the bridge.  From there it's about a 20-minute bus ride to Seagirt Cruise Terminal.  I don't know what condition the piers at Sparrows Point currently are for this to happen and if there's a possibility they could just dock the ship there to unload.  I seriously doubt Sparrows would be a viable alternative to Seagirt to continue sailings from, only a one time emergency off-load of the passengers.  I would take that over debarking from Bayonne.

Tendering really isn’t a viable option at a home port where passengers will be carrying bags and the ship needs luggage and supplies loading and offloading.

[chengkp75]

10 minutes ago, The Grumpus said:

It's possible they could tender passengers off the ship and have busses waiting at a pier at Sparrows Point, which is outside of the bridge.

Isn't Sparrows Point still a Superfund toxic waste site?

[A&L_Ont]

1 hour ago, toad455 said:

Two people have just been recovered from the waters alive.

 

1 hour ago, toad455 said:

 

Yes, it was just announced.

I only heard about the original two. One is in hospital and the other “walked away”.  
 

I haven’t seen news on the two new recoveries myself but they had to have gotten out of the water quickly as hypothermia would have led to their demise some time ago. My fingers are crossed that more have been found alive. 

Edited March 26 by A&L_Ont

[smokeybandit]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Not sure there is a difference, since both are on "navigable waters" of the US, and therefore under Federal jurisdiction, and Federal environmental laws.

But they're going to have to tear down the entire span and rebuild. And that's where Maryland's laws will kick in. That's going to be an insane amount of wasted time shorts of the Feds telling them to waive it.

[The Grumpus]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Isn't Sparrows Point still a Superfund toxic waste site?

Well, toxic waste to some is another's treasure. LOL

 

No, I didn't know that.  That would be pretty gross, not to mention unhealthily and it probably wouldn't run well in the news for RCCL to be debarking passengers in a toxic waste site.

[Wehwalt]

Major problem I see is that if they are both in Bayonne for any length of time, they're going to compete with each other. If RCCI felt it was worth having another ship there, they already would. 

 

But I would think immense resources are going to be devoted to getting a channel open to reopen the Port of Baltimore. Once it is, the problem goes away. 

[Twenty2020]

33 minutes ago, RobInMN said:

For the I-35W bridge collapse, it took 1 week before they started removing debris and vehicles, and it took almost 3 months to complete demolition and removal to start the new build. And that was for a 1900 ft bridge. The main span of this bridge is 1200 feet, Total length 1.6 mi

Granted, the importance on removing the debris wo get freight traffic going was not a concern on the I-35W bridge, but I would not be surprised if its close to that.

 

Yes but Port Baltimore is one of the busiest shipping ports on the entire east coast. Priority 1A (after search and rescue) is going to be clearing the shipping channel. I think there are like 7 cargo ships currently stuck in the harbor. 

[robmtx]

Since we have some knowledgeable people here today let me ask.

 

What is the likelihood they could quickly move enough debris from the main channel to permit ship traffic? There must be enough heavy lifting equipment on the East Coast that could at least help get the lane open? Vision isn't due for 9 days? Could they get the channel open by then?

[toad455]

5 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

Major problem I see is that if they are both in Bayonne for any length of time, they're going to compete with each other. If RCCI felt it was worth having another ship there, they already would. 

 

But I would think immense resources are going to be devoted to getting a channel open to reopen the Port of Baltimore. Once it is, the problem goes away. 

 

 

Bayonne has three ships from May through September. 2 Royal and 1 Celebrity.

[BND]

 

8 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

 

I only heard about the original two. One is in hospital and the other “walked away”.  
 

I haven’t seen news on the two new recoveries myself but they had to have gotten out of the water quickly as hypothermia would have led to their demise some time ago. My fingers are crossed that more have been found alive. 

It is the original two.  The other poster must have misunderstood what he saw on the news.  I live in No VA and local news has been covering it, including multiple special reports all day.

[Wehwalt]

3 minutes ago, toad455 said:

 

 

Bayonne has three ships from May through September. 2 Royal and 1 Celebrity.

Agreed. The question is, is it worth putting an additional RCCI ship in there if it's going to be months or longer, say if it's going to be all summer, or is there somewhere else it could more profitably go? 

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, robmtx said:

Since we have some knowledgeable people here today let me ask.

 

What is the likelihood they could quickly move enough debris from the main channel to permit ship traffic? There must be enough heavy lifting equipment on the East Coast that could at least help get the lane open? Vision isn't due for 9 days? Could they get the channel open by then?

9 days?  No way.  Ships would not want to chance a "potentially foul" channel (meaning not all the debris has been cleared).  It is going to take 9 days to contract with salvage/dredging barges, let alone get them moved to Baltimore.

[smokeybandit]

I'd think it's at least a month before that channel is open for larger ships.

[A&L_Ont]

4 minutes ago, BND said:

 

It is the original two.  The other poster must have misunderstood what he saw on the news.  I live in No VA and local news has been covering it, including multiple special reports all day.

I wish it had been true.  Having watched the video it is amazing that 2 survived. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, BND said:

I have a friend onboard. The Captain has announced he'll let them know once he knows something.  The fact, that less than 12 hours after the tragedy, people are calling.  They can't get info until decisions have been made.  Calling just jams up the phone lines. The people answering certainly have no idea.

 

Exactly - people that think CCL and RCI knew what they were going to do 5 minutes after it happened are wacko. Willing to bet they had to get an update from Maryland/Baltimore officials this morning before they could even figure out all the logistics of how to get current cruisers back and finding ports/berths that could handle future cruises. No matter where these current cruises dock - CCL and RCI now have to deal with finding buses to get people back to Baltimore that drove to the port. NYC or Norfolk is at least 4 hours from Baltimore. 

[gumshoe958]

4 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

Agreed. The question is, is it worth putting an additional RCCI ship in there if it's going to be months or longer, say if it's going to be all summer, or is there somewhere else it could more profitably go? 

She needs to go somewhere with availability that’s easily accessible for all the passengers who’ve already booked assuming she’d sail from Baltimore, and somewhere that’s convenient logistically with the necessary infrastructure already in place.

 

Bayonne fits all those requirements. It’s the obvious choice.

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, nelblu said:

Not familiar with the Baltimore harbor and wondering any possibility of tendering passengers to shore.

 

I don't see it as an option. I think in a one-time emergency it could be an last resort option. There are other "docks" within the canal - but the logistics of getting thousands of people to shore (and/or from shore to ship) would be a nightmare. Also would need to dock somewhere to take on fuel and provisions.