The Two Holland Americas

[Mekka]

One of the favorite topics on these boards is to criticize the deterioration in quality of cruising and to long for the "good old days". As many have pointed out, the cruise industry is changing and not necessarily for the better. This has led many of us to question our loyalty to HAL (I'm just about to become a 5 star Mariner) and to seek alternatives more in keeping with our desires. This saddens me, as I've spent many, many enjoyable days cruising with HAL and look at their future with considerable trepidation.

 

My wife and I appreciate HAL's smaller ships, elegant atmosphere, lack of crowds, long and exotic itineraries, great service and good food. The competitive pressures in the marketplace seem to be driving HAL in a very different direction... to larger ships, less public space, lower fares, generic itineraries, and service staff stretched to the limit. I like low fares as much as anybody, but we definitely give up quality to get them. Every time I hear news about HAL building bigger ships and rumors of selling the smaller ones, I get nervous. It appears that HAL's strategy is to move out of the premium niche that I value and into the more mass market segment, which is highly competitive to say the least. These pressures will continue to weigh on HAL and force more of the cutbacks that we love to complain about.

 

It appears to me that there are really two Holland Americas. The HAL of the future seems destined to compete in the biggest, but most challenging part of the marketplace. These are short cruises on big ships in the classic destinations: Alaska, Caribbean, Europe, etc. I wish them luck, but I fear they have no real competitive advantage in this arena. Their new ships are bigger than I like, but still much smaller than the 3,000-5,000 pax vessels that dominate this segment. HAL lacks the necessary economies of scale to compete on low prices with the brands that already are well established. I consider this the Holland America of the future and I'm not terribly optimistic about their fate.

 

But could there be a second Holland America? They have 9 smaller ships that could provide the basis for a second brand or division. Perhaps they could call it "Holland Elite" or give it an entirely new name. This division could differentiate itself by having better staffing ratios, superior food, longer & more exotic itineraries, and a more classic ambience. Yes, the prices would (must) be higher to support this. Frankly, their small ships are not efficient enough to compete in the mass market and their only choice is to dump them or try to reposition them into a new niche. HAL could borrow from what it does on Grand Voyages as the basis for this new division. Ultimately, it will be up to the marketplace to decide whether or not passengers are willing to pay the premium to support a higher quality niche.

 

It's apparent to me they need to do something different. They are sliding down a slippery slope of desperate price cutting to fill ships and then cutting back on quality to make up the consequent financial deficits. This process will take them into dangerous waters (pun intended).

 

Could there be Two Holland Americas?

[Sage]

That would be a lovely, but I don't think that those in charge will give up the bottom line for quality. I too dread the larger ships, and that is why we are turning to Crystal.

[MadManOfBethesda]

But could there be a second Holland America? They have 9 smaller ships that could provide the basis for a second brand or division. Perhaps they could call it "Holland Elite" or give it an entirely new name. This division could differentiate itself by having better staffing ratios, superior food, longer & more exotic itineraries, and a more classic ambience. Yes, the prices would (must) be higher to support this.

 

Perhaps they could call it Seabourn. After all, that's what you just described. Why would CCL need two?

[kazu]

Thoughtful post and from my experience - I`d agree.

 

I`d suggest there is a 3rd Holland America - the Prinsendam - she wasn`t built by HAL - bought instead.

 

No question (just going by my experience though and all things are subjective) that things are a notch up from the rest of the fleet.

 

 

Actually we had a lot of newbies on the Elegant Explorer our last cruise (fairly recent). They traditionally do Azamara, Oceania and Crystal.

 

They put the Prinsendam a notch below Oceania and well above Azamara. Mind you that is only a 31 day cruise and things can change.

 

I agree that there could be two - but suggest there are 3 classes - the bigger ones, the S & R`s and then the ship that is in a class all by herself:D:D:D (couldn`t resist sorry):)

[FredT]

Forget about all the fancy stuff. Just keep the "smaller" ships on longer, more exotic trips. The reason we like HAL so much now is that they have the fun itineraries, but are 30-50% cheaper than the Silver Seas, Oceania's, and Crystals of this world. There seems to be a huge following that does not care or want the "upper elite" treatment... just the good service on a good cruise at a reasonable price that takes us to new and unusual places.

 

PS: Come on HAL, how about something that goes as far as Murmansk, then Svalbard, Greenland, and Iceland. Thats next on my wish list, no matter WHO does it!

[Mekka]

I don't think a new division should be as upscale as Seabourn. As you point out, they already have a presence in that segment and I doubt HAL has the cachet to pull it off anyway. But there's plenty of room between Seabourn/Silversea's $500/night starter price and the current prices of HAL. I think a decent price point would be about halfway in between. But the key would be to reinvest that extra money back into the quality of services. If they can't find a way to make this business model work, I really fear for their future.

[Sir PMP]

"But could there be a second Holland America?"

 

I'm all for it, how much do you need?

[lovetocruise2020]

There are three:

 

Mid Size: Luxurious, tons of amenities, for the newer cruising generation

They are not at all trying to compete with Oasis, Allure, Epic & Etc (Eurodam & Nieuw Amsterdam)...

 

Mid/Small: Longer cruises, classic cruising, Older crowds, (all of the other ships)

 

Boutique: Ms. Prinsendam. In a class of her own.

 

A line does not have to stick to one size of ship, they already appeal to such a varied audience. I do not think they need to be all the same.

 

Most cruisers (and agents) know that to find the right cruise, it needs to be the right ship.

[sail7seas]

I don't think a new division should be as upscale as Seabourn. As you point out, they already have a presence in that segment and I doubt HAL has the cachet to pull it off anyway. But there's plenty of room between Seabourn/Silversea's $500/night starter price and the current prices of HAL. I think a decent price point would be about halfway in between. But the key would be to reinvest that extra money back into the quality of services. If they can't find a way to make this business model work, I really fear for their future.

 

 

Seabourn's headquarters are now 300 Elliott Avenue West, Seattle..... that is the same address for HAL's headquarters. HAL and Seabourn share many of the same principals, so ....... not so fast to say HAL doesn't have the 'cachet to pull it off anyway'. They are currently doing so.

 

[Taxguy77]

Thoughtful post and from my experience - I`d agree.

 

I`d suggest there is a 3rd Holland America - the Prinsendam - she wasn`t built by HAL - bought instead.

 

No question (just going by my experience though and all things are subjective) that things are a notch up from the rest of the fleet.

 

 

Actually we had a lot of newbies on the Elegant Explorer our last cruise (fairly recent). They traditionally do Azamara, Oceania and Crystal.

 

They put the Prinsendam a notch below Oceania and well above Azamara. Mind you that is only a 31 day cruise and things can change.

 

I agree that there could be two - but suggest there are 3 classes - the bigger ones, the S & R`s and then the ship that is in a class all by herself:D:D:D (couldn`t resist sorry):)

 

Good post!

I agree.

[RuthC]

PS: Come on HAL, how about something that goes as far as Murmansk, then Svalbard, Greenland, and Iceland. Thats next on my wish list, no matter WHO does it!

HAL did a sailing to Murmansk, and based on that visit I would guess it's not likely to happen again in our lifetime. :rolleyes:

 

As to the discussion at hand:

I can see HAL running two different styles of cruising---HAL and HAL-Lite, at different price points, but I don't see all nine smaller ships fitting in to the "elite" style. The market won't support that many sailings of the grander style OP is envisioning.

Run the Prinsendam, one or two of the S-ships, and the Amsterdam on longer, more exotic cruises. Charge what's necessary to sail them as premium, not mass-market, cruises. Let the worn out ships go, and let the excess of the remaining ships sail the types of cruises the Vista/Signature/Pinnacle ships offer.

 

I would like to see the attempt made. I would even be happy to continue sailing on those ships for as long as I am able.

[TheEmerson]

<Long Rant>

 

It all comes down market economics. HAL being a company owned by a publicity traded holding company. The holding company demands from HAL to make the most profit possible without taking away from another subsidiary. That is their only goal. It is a reflection of the environment in the modern marketplace. If CCL parent does not demand as such, they will face shareholder liability. Being as such the common nature is to be risk adverse. Drop prices, drop offered items to passengers to get the most births filled to get the most revenue thus profit.

 

Only some companies can go upstream and ask for higher prices. Therefore the clientele being able to afford drops. That removes the numbers who can and will pay.

 

It happened in US airlines and retail. The ones that become the Walmart of cruising wins for a select time until the next market shift. NCL and RCI are building bigger and bigger to get the economy of scale. Thus by building cities than towns they can demand more onboard charges and auxiliary revenue. $20 for a deli, sure but look at that water slide and other "candy" items.

 

Being honest how many reading this far will honestly spend $100 more a night per person to have the old days. Many will say they do, but don't when the time comes to buy. This is the exact same paradox when it comes to people say they WANT to "Buy American" but goto Walmart to buy "Made in China" items because it as $1 less than the mom pop store in town.

 

It all comes down to how low we as the Cruising populous are willing to spend. Not how much. If less people are willing to spend lower and lower the offerings will be better. But as long as people demand inside prices for penthouse space the market match the demand.

 

</Long Rant>

 

Please note this is directed any anyone here. But an open discussion on how this is a reflection of market principles.

[Hlitner]

Have to laugh about the "Murmansk" comment. We were on the Prinsendam when she called at Murmansk (spring of 2012) and to put it mildly, the port was very very disappointing. HA used the Prinsendam as their "pathfinder" ship and some key officials onboard thought that calling at Murmansk was to see if the city would be a decent port for the future. We suspect that 95%+ of the folks on that ship would say NO. It would rank up there with Constanta as places we hope to never see ever again!

 

Hank

[bjdcrd]

We have just returned from Alaska on the Zuiderdam and noticed a few cost saving changes. What a difference a year makes!! Cost of specialty coffees in the dining room, surcharge of the 'Italian' specialty restaurant and certain menu items in the dining room (eg., Osso Buco) removed. I am guessing to keep the fares competitive due to the rise of their fuel costs, they found it necessary? The service however was still great!!

[bjdcrd]

We have just returned from Alaska on the Zuiderdam and noticed a few cost saving changes. What a difference a year makes!! Cost of specialty coffees in the dining room, surcharge of the 'Italian' specialty restaurant and certain menu items in the dining room (eg., Osso Buco) removed. I am guessing to keep the fares competitive due to the rise of their fuel costs, they found it necessary? The service however was still great!!

[tjcox9]

Have to laugh about the "Murmansk" comment. We were on the Prinsendam when she called at Murmansk (spring of 2012) and to put it mildly, the port was very very disappointing. HA used the Prinsendam as their "pathfinder" ship and some key officials onboard thought that calling at Murmansk was to see if the city would be a decent port for the future. We suspect that 95%+ of the folks on that ship would say NO. It would rank up there with Constanta as places we hope to never see ever again!

 

Hank

 

We also had to chuckle about the Murmansk and Constanta comment! We were there (Murmansk) in 2011 on one of the small Princess ships and wondered why. :confused: It's no longer on their itineraries, I believe.

 

And as for Constanta, we will be there in July and my research has shown that it's certainly not the highlight of our upcoming 24 day Pacific Princess trip, for sure. It's only used as a gateway for a long day trip into Bucharest or to the Danube Delta. Glad to have confirmation that it's right up there with Murmansk!!!

[Krazy Kruizers]

HAL can not support "Two Holland Americas" within one company. Having the 9 smaller ships all doing longer and exotic cruises -- won't happen. The younger generation does not have the time and the money for that type of cruise. A number of years ago we were talking to a hotel manager and he mentioned how the smaller ships are were all losing money -- and this was before the economy got bad.

 

On longer cruises, less people spend money on alcohol, in the shops, etc.

 

It is sad to watch how HAL starts pricing -- for example -- European cruises -- then before you know it -- prices have to be reduced to try and fill the ships. The same thing is happening on Alaskan cruises. We all keep reading here about CC members getting free upgrades so that HAL can sell the cheaper cabins to fill the ships. CC members are just a small percentage of the cruisers. So if we read how many members get free upgrades and are offered upsells, wonder what the percentage is of other people getting these offers? It has to be higher.

I am trying to remember without doing a search -- but I think Carnival is pulling out of Europe -- they are losing money on those cruises.

It is tough times and there is no way there can be Two Holland Americas.

[Ship's Wake]

 

I am trying to remember without doing a search -- but I think Carnival is pulling out of Europe -- they are losing money on those cruises.

 

 

Their stated reason is that airfares to Europe are too high for their typical clientele, resulting in soft demand, causing them to lose money.

 

In years past, Carnival offered European sailings when they took delivery of a new build from Finacanteri that same year. They would then offer Mediterranean sailings for the rest of that year then move the ship to a homeport in the US.

 

Next year, no new build = no European sailings for Carnival.

[KirkNC]

Part of the issue is pricing. In order for HAL to offer a quality experience, they have to charge for it and those of us that want that experience must be willing to pay for it. The Prinsendam is an example of that, she always commands higher pricing and to my knowledge always has a full ship.

[Randyk47]

Years ago Celebrity flirted with the idea of two levels within the brand when they bought and significantly overhauled two of the old Reaissance Cruise Line R-class ships. We actually booked what was going to be the Quest but cancelled the cruise when Celebrity kept changing the itinerary which I think was supposed to be the second or third sailing of the Quest. Celebrity went through all sorts of growing pains with what came to be Azamara Club and I believe that's now run as a totally separate brand and line. Maybe Holland America could pull it off because they already have some experience of sorts with the Prinsendam within their own brand and the corporate experience with Seabourn. We have no interest in RCCL brands so I don't know a lot about the trials and tribulations of Azamara though I get the impression that while it took a few years they now have a viable product that's much different than Celebrity.

[Hlitner]

Another thought about HA which is about how the company treats its most loyal customers. Compared to several other mass market lines (especially Celebrity) HA gives dreadfully awful perks to their frequent cruisers (4 and 5 Star Mariners). It also seem like HA gives the best upgrades (as opposed to upsells) to their newest cruisers and takes advantage of their best customers (this is an anecdotal observation). HA seems to think that giving out a cheap Medalion or another Pin will keep the masses happy. Meanwhile, Celebrity has daily cocktail parties (2 hours per day of free cocktails), daily Elite breakfasts (including cappuccino, Bloody Marys, Champagne, etc). Likewise, RCI and Princess offer some decent amenties. In fact, all these lines offer generous amounts of free internet....something not seen on HA for 4 Star Mariners who have many more cruise days then their counterparts on the other lines. Sure, there are some loyal HA customers who treasure their Medalions......but we suspect a majority of us simply toss the things in the trash or into the bottom of a drawer.

 

HA does have their loyal group of passengers....but they are an aging group. The line has failed to do anything to attract (and keep) younger cruisers (on HA younger would be anyone under 60). And we could rant about the Westerdam (and her sisters) where there are only about 55 loungers at the inside pool. In addition, the shortage of decent verandas on many HA ships makes this type of cabin very expensive (often more then twice the cost of a veranda on the competition). End of rant :)

 

Hank

[cruz chic]

Another thought about HA which is about how the company treats its most loyal customers. Compared to several other mass market lines (especially Celebrity) HA gives dreadfully awful perks to their frequent cruisers (4 and 5 Star Mariners). It also seem like HA gives the best upgrades (as opposed to upsells) to their newest cruisers and takes advantage of their best customers (this is an anecdotal observation). HA seems to think that giving out a cheap Medalion or another Pin will keep the masses happy. Meanwhile, Celebrity has daily cocktail parties (2 hours per day of free cocktails), daily Elite breakfasts (including cappuccino, Bloody Marys, Champagne, etc). Likewise, RCI and Princess offer some decent amenties. In fact, all these lines offer generous amounts of free internet....something not seen on HA for 4 Star Mariners who have many more cruise days then their counterparts on the other lines. Sure, there are some loyal HA customers who treasure their Medalions......but we suspect a majority of us simply toss the things in the trash or into the bottom of a drawer.

 

HA does have their loyal group of passengers....but they are an aging group. The line has failed to do anything to attract (and keep) younger cruisers (on HA younger would be anyone under 60). And we could rant about the Westerdam (and her sisters) where there are only about 55 loungers at the inside pool. In addition, the shortage of decent verandas on many HA ships makes this type of cabin very expensive (often more then twice the cost of a veranda on the competition). End of rant :)

 

Hank

 

There are many thing I agree with you on here. I know that you are head over heals in love with Celebrity because you mention them constantly about being superior. I still don't get why a couple of free drinks are so impressive but then I am not a big drinker. What is Celebrity or Princess doing to attract younger customers? I guess I would be considered young at 52. My 2 cruises on Celebrity were less then impressive so I just don't understand why you think they are so great.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Their stated reason is that airfares to Europe are too high for their typical clientele, resulting in soft demand, causing them to lose money.

 

In years past, Carnival offered European sailings when they took delivery of a new build from Finacanteri that same year. They would then offer Mediterranean sailings for the rest of that year then move the ship to a homeport in the US.

 

Next year, no new build = no European sailings for Carnival.

 

Thank you for the information.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Part of the issue is pricing. In order for HAL to offer a quality experience, they have to charge for it and those of us that want that experience must be willing to pay for it. The Prinsendam is an example of that, she always commands higher pricing and to my knowledge always has a full ship.

 

She doesn't always sail full.

We had 2 different set of friends sail on 2 different itineraries the last couple of years -- both cruises were only half full.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Another thought about HA which is about how the company treats its most loyal customers. Compared to several other mass market lines (especially Celebrity) HA gives dreadfully awful perks to their frequent cruisers (4 and 5 Star Mariners). It also seem like HA gives the best upgrades (as opposed to upsells) to their newest cruisers and takes advantage of their best customers (this is an anecdotal observation). HA seems to think that giving out a cheap Medalion or another Pin will keep the masses happy. Meanwhile, Celebrity has daily cocktail parties (2 hours per day of free cocktails), daily Elite breakfasts (including cappuccino, Bloody Marys, Champagne, etc). Likewise, RCI and Princess offer some decent amenties. In fact, all these lines offer generous amounts of free internet....something not seen on HA for 4 Star Mariners who have many more cruise days then their counterparts on the other lines. Sure, there are some loyal HA customers who treasure their Medalions......but we suspect a majority of us simply toss the things in the trash or into the bottom of a drawer.

 

HA does have their loyal group of passengers....but they are an aging group. The line has failed to do anything to attract (and keep) younger cruisers (on HA younger would be anyone under 60). And we could rant about the Westerdam (and her sisters) where there are only about 55 loungers at the inside pool. In addition, the shortage of decent verandas on many HA ships makes this type of cabin very expensive (often more then twice the cost of a veranda on the competition). End of rant :)

 

Hank

 

I agree with you on many items.

HAL doesn't even treat all their 4 and 5 star Mariner's the same. One example -- We used to be told that people with high days (like us) are always invited to the VIP party -- NOT so.