The Two Holland Americas

[iancal]

I think that HAL is trying to be two companies and frankly I do not think that they are doing a very good job of it.

 

Their marketing stinks.

 

Their reward program and pricing for loyal customers is, to be generous, at the lower end of the scale.

 

Their on board experience and condition of ship varies greatly for one ship to the other. They are delaying maintenance and upgrades on some of their ships-let alone capital improvements. And it shows.

 

Look around at successful businesses. One reason they are successful is because of consistency...customers know what to expect. Not so on HAL.

 

HAL does not appear to have any business direction, they seem to be floating aimlessly with no clear marketing strategy. Competitors are starting to eat their lunch from a price and a quality perspective. If HAL does not act quickly, they will soon be a 'has been'.

[startwin]

Someone earlier mentioned that HAL seems to favour new cruisers over their loyal customer base when it comes to upgrades, so I will just share this story. Recently, friends of my daughter booked their very first cruise, in May, on the Zuiderdam to Alaska, and booked the lowest category verandah. They were upgraded to a Neptune suite, right across from the Neptune lounge!

 

My daughter and SIL also booked an Alaska cruise on the Zuiderdam, two weeks ago, to sail on July 13th. They booked an ocean view guarantee. They have already received an upsell offer, which they accepted, for $150 per person for the week for a verdandah cabin on deck 7. They are first-time HAL cruisers (they have cruised on RCI previously).

 

For myself, I've only had one upgrade in all the years we have cruised HAL. We have accepted one upsell, and refused others as they were pretty expensive.

[sail7seas]

Part of the issue is pricing. In order for HAL to offer a quality experience, they have to charge for it and those of us that want that experience must be willing to pay for it. The Prinsendam is an example of that, she always commands higher pricing and to my knowledge always has a full ship.

 

 

It is true Prinsendam is usually priced higher but she does not always sail full. Definitely there are a number of empty cabins on a number of cruises.

 

[sail7seas]

HAL can not support "Two Holland Americas" within one company. Having the 9 smaller ships all doing longer and exotic cruises -- won't happen. The younger generation does not have the time and the money for that type of cruise. A number of years ago we were talking to a hotel manager and he mentioned how the smaller ships are were all losing money -- and this was before the economy got bad.

 

On longer cruises, less people spend money on alcohol, in the shops, etc.

 

It is sad to watch how HAL starts pricing -- for example -- European cruises -- then before you know it -- prices have to be reduced to try and fill the ships. The same thing is happening on Alaskan cruises. We all keep reading here about CC members getting free upgrades so that HAL can sell the cheaper cabins to fill the ships. CC members are just a small percentage of the cruisers. So if we read how many members get free upgrades and are offered upsells, wonder what the percentage is of other people getting these offers? It has to be higher.

 

I am trying to remember without doing a search -- but I think Carnival is pulling out of Europe -- they are losing money on those cruises.

 

It is tough times and there is no way there can be Two Holland Americas.

 

 

We do not always agree but on most of what you have written here, I agree.

 

[cruz chic]

Someone earlier mentioned that HAL seems to favour new cruisers over their loyal customer base when it comes to upgrades, so I will just share this story. Recently, friends of my daughter booked their very first cruise, in May, on the Zuiderdam to Alaska, and booked the lowest category verandah. They were upgraded to a Neptune suite, right across from the Neptune lounge!

 

My daughter and SIL also booked an Alaska cruise on the Zuiderdam, two weeks ago, to sail on July 13th. They booked an ocean view guarantee. They have already received an upsell offer, which they accepted, for $150 per person for the week for a verdandah cabin on deck 7. They are first-time HAL cruisers (they have cruised on RCI previously).

 

For myself, I've only had one upgrade in all the years we have cruised HAL. We have accepted one upsell, and refused others as they were pretty expensive.

 

I'm happy for your family but that burns my butt. I've seen many posts over the years that say that 4 star plus get the best upgrades. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Keith1010]

Very well thought out post.

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

Keith

[KirkNC]

She doesn't always sail full.

 

We had 2 different set of friends sail on 2 different itineraries the last couple of years -- both cruises were only half full.

 

Wow I would love that, imagine the level of service you should recieve on that cruise.

 

I am surprised they were that empty as lines typically go into panic mode if they get into the mid 90% of capacity. CNBC did a show on RCI one time and they talked about that.

[KirkNC]

It is true Prinsendam is usually priced higher but she does not always sail full. Definitely there are a number of empty cabins on a number of cruises.

 

 

Yes but understand the point. We can't complain about the level of service, food etc and than also seek rock bottom pricing. Not saying you personally do that but a lot of passengers want both. It just does not work economically, HAL would be out of business. Where we all live there are cheap grocery store and expensive ones. The expensive ones have fresher produce/meats/seafood, more variety and shorter check out lines. I usually shop there and knowingly pay more because thats what I want. I can't go to the cheap store and expect the same.

[lidojohnny]

On the first page of the CC web is a picture of the EVP of Princess Cruises. He is there as you can read for yourself, to answer questions

about their new ship. Someone from CC has obviously asked him to

come on board for this purpose, and he has been there a long time. Why,

therefore, cannot someone from the managers of cc, ask a person of

equal rank from HAL, or Stein Kruse himself, to answer these same

questions that are repeated over and over and over, from persons who

do not have current information, who think they do based on what they

may have heard or gathered from a cruise or two they have been on.

Let's go to the horses mouth as it were.

 

Stein; Are you cutting back on

staff?, are you going to build new bigger ships, what's up with the cheap

loyalty program? The food seems to have gotten worse, is it true and

what are you doing about it? Let's get the right current answers

and we all can be in the know. Then the speculation won't be necessary.

[dr.dawg]

sad to say, hal has no 'identity' right now. trying to ride the center of the road. tending to mass-market mediocrity; trying to preserve some sense of 'elegance'. achieving neither. kind of like hudsons and packards of the 50's. i've loved hal for years, and it is sad and nostalgic to see hal go, but it will, blanche, it will.

[sapete]

On the first page of the CC web is a picture of the EVP of Princess Cruises. He is there as you can read for yourself, to answer questions

about their new ship. Someone from CC has obviously asked him to

come on board for this purpose, and he has been there a long time. Why,

therefore, cannot someone from the managers of cc, ask a person of

equal rank from HAL, or Stein Kruse himself, to answer these same

questions that are repeated over and over and over, from persons who

do not have current information, who think they do based on what they

may have heard or gathered from a cruise or two they have been on.

Let's go to the horses mouth as it were.

 

Stein; Are you cutting back on

staff?, are you going to build new bigger ships, what's up with the cheap

loyalty program? The food seems to have gotten worse, is it true and

what are you doing about it? Let's get the right current answers

and we all can be in the know. Then the speculation won't be necessary.

 

If you have followed these "VIP" threads the cruiseline executive rarely answers a "controversial" question if not indeed answer a question in a thread at all!:confused: I doubt if HAL would be any different.

[kazu]

Wow I would love that, imagine the level of service you should recieve on that cruise.

 

I am surprised they were that empty as lines typically go into panic mode if they get into the mid 90% of capacity. CNBC did a show on RCI one time and they talked about that.

 

The Grand Cruise had around 600 passengers on it I believe and a couple of other cruises they have sailed a bit less than full. They chose not to reduce prices.

 

She was full when we sailed and most times is.

 

Firmin advised that on our last cruise that she is the most profitable ship in the fleet.

 

Despite what people might think about longer cruises, it is my experience that on this ship people do spend money:D There were lots of people in the Crow's Nest drinking. I saw lots of people with bags from the signature shops and bottles of wine frequented many MDR tables. The wine stewards were very quick and good.

 

And the shore excursions had a huge number of people booked.

 

Certainly I got a lot more mariner day credits than I had anticipated from my on board spending:eek:;)

[Hlitner]

It is true Prinsendam is usually priced higher but she does not always sail full. Definitely there are a number of empty cabins on a number of cruises.

 

 

On our Prinsendam Grand Med Cruise in the spring of 2012 (62 days) there were never more then 585 on the ship at any time (we had many segments). This means that the ship was only cruising at 75% of capacity. There was quite a bit of speculation at Happy Hours in the Crows Nest with most feeling that HA has simply priced the cruise too high for many potential cruisers. Even a forward porthole cabin cost over $200 per passenger day. Most balcony cabins (you have to book a small suite on the P. Dam) cost over $300 per passenger day. At that price once could take a cruise on several of the ultra-luxury lines....and the P.Dam is certainly not in that category.

 

By the way, we were offered an upsell on that cruise which would have taken us from our porthole cabin to a suite. Cost of the upsell was $9,999 (forgot to ask if that was per person). Mighty nice of them :)

 

Hank

[sail7seas]

Yes but understand the point. We can't complain about the level of service, food etc and than also seek rock bottom pricing. Not saying you personally do that but a lot of passengers want both. It just does not work economically, HAL would be out of business. Where we all live there are cheap grocery store and expensive ones. The expensive ones have fresher produce/meats/seafood, more variety and shorter check out lines. I usually shop there and knowingly pay more because thats what I want. I can't go to the cheap store and expect the same.

 

 

I believe I have made that point repeatedly here on this forum.

 

And you're right, we don't seek the rock bottom prices though we should. We have chosen to book with PCC's and there is no way we are getting rock bottom prices for the cabins we book from this HAL PCC. :eek:

 

And yes, I get the point. :)

 

[jayjaycan]

I doubt there will ever be two Holland America's or even two divisions.The whole cruise industry is changing and unless HAL wants to join thr ranks of Oceania.Azamara.Regent etc. they will continue to morph into a revised image of themselves.

 

If the Prinsendam was so profitable don't you think they would refurbish one of the smaller ships and use it for an upgraded market?

 

They are trying to maintain their market niche while staying competitive.Hence the addition of pay as you go amenities such as new specialty restaurants {Tamarind) and cabanas in order to improve profitablity.

 

All lines have made cutbacks in staff and some services even the premium ones.Increased prices in specialty dining reataurants has occured throughout the industry reflecting the general increase in food products.Services and quality have declined as a result but generally cruise prices are lower than they were a few years ago.It is unrealisiic to expect old style service and quality at to-day's lower,competitive prices.

 

HAL has to change with the times and some of us don't like change.There are any number of premium lines that will gladly take your money for a an upgraded product.I think HAL still has a pretty good product in comparison to what else is out there.

 

They must improve their rewards program if they want to increase their repeat customer base.We are a 4 star Mariner approaching 5 star and have never received an upgrade.We received an upsell on an Alaska cruise several years ago that we took.We had another on a recent Panama sailing that was so expensive we passed on it.

Other cruise lines offer much better perks for comparable 3 star and higher levels.

[SilvertoGold]

On our Prinsendam Grand Med Cruise in the spring of 2012 (62 days) there were never more then 585 on the ship at any time (we had many segments). This means that the ship was only cruising at 75% of capacity. There was quite a bit of speculation at Happy Hours in the Crows Nest with most feeling that HA has simply priced the cruise too high for many potential cruisers. Even a forward porthole cabin cost over $200 per passenger day. Most balcony cabins (you have to book a small suite on the P. Dam) cost over $300 per passenger day. At that price once could take a cruise on several of the ultra-luxury lines....and the P.Dam is certainly not in that category.

 

By the way, we were offered an upsell on that cruise which would have taken us from our porthole cabin to a suite. Cost of the upsell was $9,999 (forgot to ask if that was per person). Mighty nice of them :)

 

Hank

 

The 2013 edition of this cruise was priced at about 7400 pp plus taxes, air for an NN guarentee. For us that would have been about 150 pp per day. If we had not had personal commitments over those two months we would have jumped at the pricing. Maybe HAL learned something from the 2012 cruise!

[sail7seas]

 

<snip>

 

 

If the Prinsendam was so profitable don't you think they would refurbish one of the smaller ships and use it for an upgraded market?

HAL has to change with the times and some of us don't like change.There are any number of premium lines that will gladly take your money for a an upgraded product.I think HAL still has a pretty good product in comparison to what else is out there.

 

 

<snip>

 

 

I agree. We keep being told on this forum how successful and the money maker Prinsendam is but that is highly unlikely. You are right. Any of the "S" ships could easily become another 'version' if that higher priced model is such a cash cow. Not so.....

[lovetocruise2020]

Another thought about HA which is about how the company treats its most loyal customers. Compared to several other mass market lines (especially Celebrity) HA gives dreadfully awful perks to their frequent cruisers (4 and 5 Star Mariners). It also seem like HA gives the best upgrades (as opposed to upsells) to their newest cruisers and takes advantage of their best customers (this is an anecdotal observation). HA seems to think that giving out a cheap Medalion or another Pin will keep the masses happy. Meanwhile, Celebrity has daily cocktail parties (2 hours per day of free cocktails), daily Elite breakfasts (including cappuccino, Bloody Marys, Champagne, etc). Likewise, RCI and Princess offer some decent amenties. In fact, all these lines offer generous amounts of free internet....something not seen on HA for 4 Star Mariners who have many more cruise days then their counterparts on the other lines. Sure, there are some loyal HA customers who treasure their Medalions......but we suspect a majority of us simply toss the things in the trash or into the bottom of a drawer.

 

HA does have their loyal group of passengers....but they are an aging group. The line has failed to do anything to attract (and keep) younger cruisers (on HA younger would be anyone under 60). And we could rant about the Westerdam (and her sisters) where there are only about 55 loungers at the inside pool. In addition, the shortage of decent verandas on many HA ships makes this type of cabin very expensive (often more then twice the cost of a veranda on the competition). End of rant :)

 

Hank

 

We love HAL, We think they are the best value at sea. We have not cruised HAL a ton, but enough to become 3 star mariners, with suite bonuses and spending bonuses. We are young.

 

This year we did not book a suite, because of the decline in suite service and perks. Would we upgrade if the price is right? Yes for a cheap upsell. Otherwise no way.

 

The rewards for being 3 star a little to none.

 

Is HAL doing anything to keep us coming back that makes them unique?

No, we just feel they are a good value and have the things we are looking for.

 

When we started to look at new cruise lines and we found the Eurodam and Nieuw Amsterdam, they were the only ships at sea that offered EVERYTHING we wanted. Sea days, Cabanas, Jacuzzi Tubs, Pan Asian, Hot Room Service, Suite Restaurant, perks etc.

 

Now that time has passed. There are 4 new ships that offer everything we are looking for and MORE. Why keep spending tons of money with HAL? They are doing nothing to keep us passengers that are loyal. Sooner or later, the older folks who sail HAL will be gone. Better to start them young and keep them.

 

Next year, we are doing a 7 night Haven sailing on a new NCL ship, getting off in Nassau on Night 6 (disembark at 7 pm) and doing Atlantis for 3 nights then Sandals for 5 nights. It will be our 10 year anniversary of being together. Its huge for us.

 

We picked this NCL Haven Aft Suite for the layout (amazing. 1.5 baths, huge balcony, and lovely huge tub and shower overlooking the water)... The ship has everything we look for...

 

We cruise other lines for short cheap cruises. But we do 1-2 a year longer/nicer/suite cruises that are a focus for us, and HAL is doing nothing to target the young market that we are a part of.

 

Do I still think that HAL is the best value at sea? Yep. But sometimes, we need nicer, better and more accommodations/food/perks for our hard earned money, (and DH's hard earned straight A's)...

Do we mind spending a little more? Nope. Not if we get more.

 

We will be back. I know it. Just in what capacity, I am not sure. Let's hope that with the new build HAL will watch what the competition is doing in regard to suites and standard room amenities, and get out there and compete.

 

Otherwise, the young passangers who purchase full suites will eventually gravitate elsewhere... JMHO.

[Typhoon1]

At some point in the future. The one HAL will feature all large ships. The small ships will be phased out as they just cannot generate the same revenue as the larger ships.

 

Each time there is a new build, it gets larger than the last ship produced.

[OlsSalt]

Good idea. How about calling them the Holland America Explorer ships, because those smaller ships can offer more interesting and unique itineraries.

[sail7seas]

Good idea. How about calling them the Holland America Explorer ships, because those smaller ships can offer more interesting and unique itineraries.

 

 

How many people have the time, interest and money to fill how many of those smaller ships with those interesting and unique itineraries..... in addition to Prinsendam's Grand Voyages, Amsterdam's World Cruise and other lengthy cruises offered by HAL? There are just so many who have all required characteristics.

 

[OlsSalt]

How many people have the time, interest and money to fill how many of those smaller ships with those interesting and unique itineraries..... in addition to Prinsendam's Grand Voyages, Amsterdam's World Cruise and other lengthy cruises offered by HAL? There are just so many who have all required characteristics.

 

 

Something priced the way they are now, and pick up groups like the old Discovery passengers who were a pretty loyal bunch. Less frills, more just travel type ships.

 

The real action now is Asia where the new money is looking for ways to spend it. HAL will no longer have a virtually exclusive North American passenger base. This is happening already. This might mean some of the beloved smaller ships will go away, but retaining what has been good about them without the routine routes over and over again could work. Hard to judge, particularly the newer Asian markets.

 

Newly retired baby boomer cruisers, the back-packer generations, have yet to be fully tapped. My guess is they want something more off the beaten path, more adventuresome, more basic, more active nature-oriented shore options, less onboard entertainment glitz, and the smaller and more intimate surroundings - why it sounds like the new HAL Explorers Collection of ships. :cool:

[kazu]

I doubt there will ever be two Holland America's or even two divisions.The whole cruise industry is changing and unless HAL wants to join thr ranks of Oceania.Azamara.Regent etc. they will continue to morph into a revised image of themselves.

 

If the Prinsendam was so profitable don't you think they would refurbish one of the smaller ships and use it for an upgraded market?

 

.

 

I agree. We keep being told on this forum how successful and the money maker Prinsendam is but that is highly unlikely. You are right. Any of the "S" ships could easily become another 'version' if that higher priced model is such a cash cow. Not so.....

 

To be clear, I was only reporting what we were told by Firmin, the hotel manager onboard the Prinsendam right before he retired. It was he who said that she is the most profitable ship in the fleet - and this has been said by other people on the Elegant Explorer on my previous sailing as well.

 

I suspect HAL knows how big the market is for a ship like the Prinsendam.

 

Moreover, part of it's appeal is the design (and of course the crew) - which is different from the other HAL ships. it is smaller than the other S ships and I suspect that this is part of the appeal:confused:;) Her design isn't the standard HAL design and for so of us we find this nice. She also has many beautiful spots for viewing compared to the other ships IMO.

 

anyways - not trying to start a controversy - just repeating what I was told;)

[sassyredhat]

I think the fact may be that some people have not accepted that 'life' in general, is not, and will not, be the same as it was prior to 2008. It's a hard thing to do, as we had become accustomed to the 'good life'.

It's been awhile since we were able to sail HAL--our line of choice. I can't be in a pressurized cabin for very long, so it's west coast cruising for us.

With HAL pulling out of SD and with the CCL Inspiration in LB doing the short cruises, it just isn't financially feasible for HAL to keep ships here. I would jump on a short cruise on Ryndam down to Mexico rather than sail Inspiration, but it not practical for them to compete with that.

IMO, you pay for what you get. If we start getting all these fabulous perks, the company has to make it up elsewhere. Nothing much is like it used to be. IMO. :)

Pat

[lovetocruise2020]

I think the fact may be that some people have not accepted that 'life' in general, is not, and will not, be the same as it was prior to 2008. It's a hard thing to do, as we had become accustomed to the 'good life'.

 

It's been awhile since we were able to sail HAL--our line of choice. I can't be in a pressurized cabin for very long, so it's west coast cruising for us.

 

With HAL pulling out of SD and with the CCL Inspiration in LB doing the short cruises, it just isn't financially feasible for HAL to keep ships here. I would jump on a short cruise on Ryndam down to Mexico rather than sail Inspiration, but it not practical for them to compete with that.

 

IMO, you pay for what you get. If we start getting all these fabulous perks, the company has to make it up elsewhere. Nothing much is like it used to be. IMO. :)

 

Pat

 

I loved the Inspiration! (twice in last 30 or so days) CCL is pulling more ships to the west coast, as thehy ALWAYS sell full, and in the summer, at full price!