Ship's security guards are not police officers and should not be investigating crimes

[US Marine]

Our time on the Norwegian Spirit Mediterranean Cruise was worth it for me and my family. However, for the new cruiser the ship has many extra hidden costs you may not be aware of and be very frustrating. But, over all, the ship's employees are very professional and perform outstanding service to all who sail the Norwegian.

 

The only problem I had was the very obnoxious security guards. These are personnel from other countries such as Nepal, Bangladesh, and India. In the introductory ship's brochure they tell guests the security officers are like police officers, this could not be farther from the truth. Police officers are well trained and attend police academies, in service training school, and obtain professional investigatory training.

 

The ship wants you to report all crimes to these untrained security guards. Is the ship trying to hide criminal acts so the ship does not get a bad name! I am a police commander from a large USA police agency. If you are a victim of a crime on a cruise ship report it to the next in-port police agency as soon as possible and they will either take charge or get you in touch with a real police officer and police agency that has jurisdiction over the waters where the crime occurred. Or call or go to your country's embassy to report the crime and they will contact the appropriate law enforcement agency. If you do decide to report a criminal act against you while on the ship, then critical evidence could be (and will be) lost and it will be to late. We have heard and seen numerous media reports of crimes that have occurred on these ships.

 

If you are from the USA, almost every country (port of call) has an FBI office attached with the US Embassy. Call them immediately as they have jurisdiction on all international crimes committed against US citizens. Do not report the crime to the ship's security office. Trust me, the real police agency will report the crime to the ship's authorities and they may even board the ship and hold it until the crime is properly investigated. This, of course, depends on the criminal act. The ship's security guards are not QUALIFIED nor properly TRAINED to investigate a crime other than (maybe) a lost item. I am talking about major crimes like sexual assault, rape, robbery, aggravated assault etc. (and yes these crimes occur on many cruise ships).

 

The ship's security department is not trained to do this nor are they equipt to perform a criminal investigation. They really do act like they are the police and it is a very unsettling feeling to see this.

[sparks1093]

Our time on the Norwegian Spirit Mediterranean Cruise was worth it for me and my family. However, for the new cruiser the ship has many extra hidden costs you may not be aware of and be very frustrating. But, over all, the ship's employees are very professional and perform outstanding service to all who sail the Norwegian.

 

The only problem I had was the very obnoxious security guards. These are personnel from other countries such as Nepal, Bangladesh, and India. In the introductory ship's brochure they tell guests the security officers are like police officers, this could not be farther from the truth. Police officers are well trained and attend police academies, in service training school, and obtain professional investigatory training.

 

The ship wants you to report all crimes to these untrained security guards. Is the ship trying to hide criminal acts so the ship does not get a bad name! I am a police commander from a large USA police agency. If you are a victim of a crime on a cruise ship report it to the next in-port police agency as soon as possible and they will either take charge or get you in touch with a real police officer and police agency that has jurisdiction over the waters where the crime occurred. Or call or go to your country's embassy to report the crime and they will contact the appropriate law enforcement agency. If you do decide to report a criminal act against you while on the ship, then critical evidence could be (and will be) lost and it will be to late. We have heard and seen numerous media reports of crimes that have occurred on these ships.

 

If you are from the USA, almost every country (port of call) has an FBI office attached with the US Embassy. Call them immediately as they have jurisdiction on all international crimes committed against US citizens. Do not report the crime to the ship's security office. Trust me, the real police agency will report the crime to the ship's authorities and they may even board the ship and hold it until the crime is properly investigated. This, of course, depends on the criminal act. The ship's security guards are not QUALIFIED nor properly TRAINED to investigate a crime other than (maybe) a lost item. I am talking about major crimes like sexual assault, rape, robbery, aggravated assault etc. (and yes these crimes occur on many cruise ships).

 

The ship's security department is not trained to do this nor are they equipt to perform a criminal investigation. They really do act like they are the police and it is a very unsettling feeling to see this.

 

Welcome to Cruise Critic. A police force is whatever a local jurisdiction says it is and a police officer is whoever a local jurisdiction says they are. In this case the ship is the local jurisdiction. Your advice to not report a serious crime until the ship reaches port may not be the soundest advice regardless of your opinion of the ship's security force. Crime scenes and evidence must be secured, suspects must be taken into custody if warranted (or confined to their cabin), medical care provided to the victims, etc.

[John Bull]

As a general note, I do get frustrated by the number of threads about crimes on board, ships sinking, terrorism against travellers, medivacs, armed robberies, life-threatening illnesses, and so many other incredibly unlikely scenarios. Makes me wonder why some folk dare step out of their front doors.:rolleyes:

 

If I were to commit a crime, I think I'd do it in New York or London rather than on a ship. Millions of potential suspects, millions of places to hide, easy to dispose of proceeds & evidence.

 

I don't see that the nationality of the security staff has anything to do with the subject.

 

Undoubtedly their selection & training are way below that of a police officer, more like shore-side security staff in resorts, nightclubs & such.

And their duties are as much, or more, to do with protecting the ship & its regulations than investigating crimes against passengers.

But it would not surprise me if the head of security were a former police officer, with experience of the crimes you mentioned. Plus the specific experience of crime at sea, and knowledge of ship's staff, security equipment & routines.

 

You mention that vital evidence could be lost.

More chance of that if you wait til you reach a port.

Unless you're insinuating that security staff would deliberately destroy or conceal evidence.

 

They'd be my first recourse in the event of a crime.

Obviously at sea, cos dialling 911 won't achieve anything when you're out on the briny.

 

And the same even in port, for petty crime such as thefts because of the time element - both the time for local police to arrive & to continue investigations when the ship is due to sail, because it'd be one helluva crime that prevents a cruise ship from sailing.

 

Certainly worth reporting to local police at the first port-of-call, and asking them to take over the case from ship's security.

 

The FBI have jurisdiction in the USA, not the whole wide world. Local police may well invite them to co-operate.

 

You clearly had an issue with security staff and, with respect, your phraseology shows that this is the reason for your post.

 

JB :)

[spookwife]

 

 

 

If you are from the USA, almost every country (port of call) has an FBI office attached with the US Embassy. Call them immediately as they have jurisdiction on all international crimes committed against US citizens..

 

sorry Devil Dog, this is simply not true. the FBI's jurisdiction ENDS at the US Border. the Coast Guard has more law enforcement authority at Sea than the FBI does. and the local authorities( whether that is the mall security guy, the sheriff or the security office of the ship) absolutely need to be informed ASAP

 

or are you suggesting that the Gate Guards and MAs at Washington Navy Yard should not have been called in to help yesterday?!

[smeyer418]

sorry Devil Dog, this is simply not true. the FBI's jurisdiction ENDS at the US Border. the Coast Guard has more law enforcement authority at Sea than the FBI does. and the local authorities( whether that is the mall security guy, the sheriff or the security office of the ship) absolutely need to be informed ASAP

 

or are you suggesting that the Gate Guards and MAs at Washington Navy Yard should not have been called in to help yesterday?!

The FBI has jurisdiction where ever Americans nationals are. They can and have investigated crimes on Board ships. There is a specific law that gives them jurisdiction on cruise ships that leave, stop or return to US ports as well as crimes against US nationals. An FBI agent investigated the crime that occurred in Kusadasi Turkey along with the local officials.. He was attached to the embassy in Ankara and happened to be in Kusadasi that day. The FBI recently helped in a murder that occurred overseas and the husband was indicted recently in California. The law was changed to be more specific about US jurisdiction a couple of years ago. The Kusadasi crime occurred prior to that change but relied upon US assertion of jurisdiction any where in the world on crimes against US nationals.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/18/lonnie-kocontes_n_3462280.html Florida man indicted in California for murder of his wife in Italy on a cruise ship

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2323265/Familys-murder-suspicions-prompt-new-probe-death-honeymooner-blood-smeared-Caribbean-cruise-ship-disappeared-from.html

The advice to wait until you return to a US port is a poor one. The fact that you delay the report will make investigations more difficult and taint your testimony(make it harder to believe you). You can immediately call the CG and the FBI but they will contact the ship board people. Who will be asked to conduct a preliminary investigation, and safe guard the crime scene.

They might not be the best trained people but they are trained to protect the crime scene and do some preliminary work until the FBI, if they decide to take the case, arrive.

 

 

http://seattletimes.com/html/travel/2021525136_cruisecrimesdataxml.html

 

One word about the stats, the FBI and the CG too publish such stats but these will differ because the FBI keeps cases out of the stats until they close the case...which can be years. The cruise line stats are all cases including open ones they have reported.

 

http://www.commerce.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=b2cb9917-99e7-4035-871f-2c5f672ed691

This last one is a press release from Jay Rockefeller senator from West VA. The reimbursement discussed is from the ship that lost power and was assisted for 5 days until it was towed to port(the CG didn't do the tow but stood by took one passenger off and provided other assistance- the CG doesn't charge any one for emergency services)

 

BTW not all US police are trained to FBI standards or even NCIS ones.

[Elaine5715]

Carninal provides a letter in each cabins saying they have a zero tolerance with a contact number for the FBI.

 

However, dealing with other coutries whose cultures and police are vastly different from the US, the ship security are the ones who may need to phyiscally restrain guests and other guests may not understand "security."

[Hlitner]

Woah Nellie! We noticed that the OP is a first time poster so we say welcome to CC. But we also know that what the OP says is totally untrue. This is because we are personal friends with a head of security on a cruise ship. He just happens to be a retired Police Chief (from a major city in Washington state). So here is the real story. Every cruise ship has a "head of security," "Security Officer," or some other title (it varies between the cruise line) who is always a highly trained security person (often a police officer in a prior life). These folks are every much as professional as your local police chief....and are well versed in national, international, and Maritime law. They oversee the ship's so-called security employees, many of whom have a law enforcement background and training from their own countries. The issue of jurisdiction for crimes committed on the high seas is complex and governed by international laws and some treaty agreements adopted by the UN.

 

Do ships hide crime reports? It has certainly happened (even local police forces and federal police forces hide or ignore some crimes) since the PR machine often takes on a life of its own (this happens in every police jurisdiction in the world). If you call your local police and report a burglary and officer will come to your home and complete a crime report. In most cases that is the end of the story and nothing happens. Its no different on a ship where they will complete a report and often nothing will happen. If its a serious crime it is often turned over to whatever land-based law enforcement agency who has jurisdiction. Apparently the current standard is to notify the FBI for major crimes involving US citizens, but sometimes crimes are handled by a local police department if it occurs while a ship is in port. Our security officer friend actually has Senior Officer Status on a HA ship, and not only deals with passenger-related crime but must also deal with crew-related crime (a more common issue) and certain personnel matters.

 

Hank

[culinarc]

Although I agree with some of the OP point that it is not a perfect system, I think you would have to use the security on the ship to report a crime. Like it or not they are the only authority you have on a vessel at sea. OK they may not have police training but you have to have some faith they know how to handle whatever situation may occur. We have to have the same type of expectation in our own community with our local law enforcement. I dont think all police are trained the same and they can make mistakes too. I have never had a need for security on a ship but if something did happen I would certainly ask for their help.

[navybankerteacher]

Granted that ship's security personnel are probably not trained law-enforcement people, but they surely should be advised of any criminal activity. Of course, if you are a victim of a crime you probably should report it to shore base authorities as soon as possible. Most countries claim some jurisdiction of ships in their waters, and likely even simply calling at their ports.

[kitty9]

The security officers on ships aren't untrained high school drop outs like you might see with some US land based security companies, who ride around in their cars. These persons are trained, and are the first persons you talk to if you see, or are a part of, a criminal activity. As a member of a police force, as you say you are, surely you'd know that waiting until you get to a port of call to report a crime is not in anyone's best interest. In all crimes, time is of the essence, and waiting is a very bad idea. Not only that, but not all police forces in every port are able to handle cases that happen out of their jurisdictions.

 

I suspect you have had personal experience with the security officers on your cruise. It would be nice if you were to tell everyone here what you experienced with regards to these officers. But, you must realize that many here are suspicious of "one post wonders" who come here with stories that cause many questions.

 

As an aside, there is currently a law in discussion in the US House which would require cruise lines to report every criminal activity that happens.

[smeyer418]

...

 

As an aside, there is currently a law in discussion in the US House which would require cruise lines to report every criminal activity that happens.

the law passed in 2010

 

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg2/cgis/CruiseLine.asp

 

here is the CG approved course and curriculum for that course

 

http://www.leesfield.com/files/cvssa.pdf

[wwcruisers]

.

 

The only problem I had was the very obnoxious security guards. These are personnel from other countries such as Nepal, Bangladesh, and India. In the introductory ship's brochure they tell guests the security officers are like police officers, this could not be farther from the truth. Police officers are well trained and attend police academies, in service training school, and obtain professional investigatory training.

 

 

For someone who seems to know so much about international law enforcement training, you seem rather unfamiliar with the Nepalese Gurkhas, and their historic role in cruise ship security. :rolleyes:

Well, welcome to CruiseCritic!

[CruiserBruce]

Hmmm...interesting first post, and none since.

[jamessemaj]

Hmmm...interesting first post, and none since.

 

Seems to be a troll, posting an inane opinion and watching for the reaction. Pretty useless.

[russianmom]

Don't feed the troll!!:eek:

[US Marine]

Just a note, I am just trying to assist any and all who may fall victim to a crime on a ship. I have never read or seen a media article where evidence was secured or preserved from a ship's security department, in fact most crime scenes are tainted before LEOs arrive. That is why people that have become missing from ships never get found and that is why law enforcement hold ships, because critical evidence is lost. And to those who are expecting many responses back, I just don't have the time, I work for a living...Sorry!

 

And it was not just a personal experience....I assisted a 59 yoa lady who was a victim of a vicious crime. She did report it and nothing was done, she was laughed at. I tired to report it and I was brushed off. I immeditely took her to a local police agency after contacting them from the ship via email and while in port. The locals then took the case and immediatly (she was from USA) notified the FBI. The FBI and locals worked very well together and I gave a statement of what my role was. Kitty9, NavyBankerTeacher, Culinarc, Smyer418, Hlitner thank you for your additional advice and imput and welcoming me, not so sure I want to come back though. Spookwife and JohnBull......sorry you are wrong the FBI does have jurisdiction over all Americans aboard why do you think they are stationed aboard hello! CruiserBruce, Jamessemaj, and russianmom...what can I say, sorry guys but you really need to stop watching so much tv and get off of the computers waiting for responses to your nasty little posts.

 

The bottom line if you are a victim of a crime you decide who, what, when, where, why and how to report it and to who. Just trying to help those that need help.

 

Thanks to all that gave very good advice to future cruisers, you are my true heros.....

[smeyer418]

thanks for the shout out.

I think your views are influenced by the one off experience you had.

Cruise lines are safer than they were 5 years ago, but not as safe as they will be in 5 years. the cruise industry is working closely with the government and the FBI in-particular to improve their response to crimes on board. Much of this is mandated by the new law but the public relations stand of the cruise lines.

http://www.cruising.org/regulatory/issues-facts/safety-and-security

Could it be better? of course but local police are not necessarily any better.

Things are improving each ship now has rape kits on board and people trained in there use. There will almost always(but not always) be someone who has been trained in their use.

see http://www.cruising.org/regulatory/issues-facts/passenger-safety-security/security

I also don't think there is an FBI agent aboard ships at all times. There aren't enough of them for one thing...http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/faqs. FBI and local leo's don't always work well together.

 

As I said things are changing mostly for the better. I don't know either where or when you experience took place, but I think if it happened today it would be hopefully handled better.

 

Senator Rockefeller was particular incensed by some of the statements made by the Cruise Industry in front of his committee recently and expressed his displeasure directly to them. I watched the committee hearing and found it interesting. I contacted him because of one particular egregious statement the representatives made and offered a suggestion and got no response(if you are interested in what it was, it had to do with the cruise lines liability for the doctors on board for which they claim no liability at all as they are independent contractors.)

[rwr235]

Self-Delete

 

Woody

[rwr235]

I say "Welcome" also...Cruise Critic is a great place to both give and receive advice/tips/suggestions and discuss everything cruise related...and in this ever-changing world, security and crime is more often (unfortunately) in the news...and cruising is certainly not exempt.

 

I think folks reading your first post were just a bit taken back by calling the Security Staff on your cruise "obnoxious"...and I am not you nor was I in your shoes, so I can't say...and stating the countries they were from, perhaps giving the impression that individuals from those countries are either "obnoxious" or incompetent. However, in all my cruises since 1974, I have never encountered an obnoxious Security Staff member on any of 7 lines I have been on, nor have I encountered any that "act like they are the police..." (although I like to think that most police and LEO's are polite, professional, helpful and competent, and I have never encountered anything but polite, professional, helpful (can't adequately comment on competence, as I have never had a direct opportunity to personally deal with cruise Security staff in a criminal situation)...and probably quite a majority of other passengers have not either.

 

Secondly, as a couple folks pointed out...unless you had access to the Security Staff members personnel files, or perhaps got detailed information from them in person, it is probably a bit premature to state that they are "not QUALIFIED nor properly TRAINED to investigate a crime..." I'm always intrigued to learn a bit of the backgrounds of staff on cruise ships...a waiter who has a law degree; an assistant waiter who owns 2 restaurants in his home country; a bartender who has an economics degree and had a prior career in govt....and many more.

 

As smeyer418 has pointed out...security on cruise ships is ever improving, as it must, and no doubt training of staff is ever improving as well. It's always funny when I read threads on here about "smuggling" on liquor. In this day and age, I think the Security staff are much more concerned with discovering other prohibited items, rather than the odd bottle of tequila !!

 

Thanks again for your posts...(just related): there was a thread on here awhile back from another Police Officer, providing personal security tips when cruising/traveling and other advice/feedback, and as expected it was much appreciated and commented (positive) upon.

 

As evidenced by the recent event here in my area (DC)...personal security; response to; prevention of falling victim of a crime; steps to take if you are etc...are all a necessary topic of discussion today.

 

Enjoy cruising...and Be Safe !!

 

also, in your second post...I think perhaps you meant that there are FBI stationed...abroad...not aboard ?

Woody

[calliopecruiser]

The bottom line if you are a victim of a crime you decide who, what, when, where, why and how to report it and to who.

 

Yes, and delaying the report and keeping it a secret is frequently not in the victims' best interests.

 

I still think your advice is wrong-headed, even if it is well meaning.....though I question how well meaning it is, bringing racism and xenophobia into the equation. Race and nationality matter nothing in this issue. After all, it's not as if every American is skilled and trustworthy, nor is is true that people from other countries aren't as likely (or unlikely) to be skilled and trustworthy. The idea that Americans want to travel but don't want to deal with people from other countries constantly amazes me.

[sparks1093]

The idea that some Americans want to travel but don't want to deal with people from other countries constantly amazes me.

 

Small edit;).

[RenaeG]

I'm am Australian & first cruise coming up in January. Looks like I'm in all sorts of trouble if I'm a victim of crime as I'm pretty sure Australian Federal Police aren't hanging out in the Caribbean waiting for crimes to happen to Australians. I'm not an expert in international law but I did find it interesting that someone posted that the FBI has jurisdiction where crimes happen to Americans internationally. Pretty sure that's not the case! If a crime happened to an American in Australia the FBI has no jurisdiction whatsoever.

[calliopecruiser]

Small edit;).

 

In my experience, the edit should have read "most" ;)

[US Marine]

You are absolutely right and I apologize as that was a rude comment, just a bit ticked and should not have said that. I am humbled by your nice comment and telling me it was wrong. Again accept my sincere apology....SORRY!

[US Marine]

The FBI has field offices in every US Embassy in the world. They have agreements with almost every industrialize country in the world including Australia.