UK Gratuities

[yogimax]

I was in 100% agreement with you, not talking against you or putting you down. my response was to how arrogant and disgusting yogimax is. I do not think that people that choose to tip cash are stiffing anyone. Tip however you please (amount and method).

 

Ha! So I am being condemned for speaking up for waiters, assistant waiters, stateroom attendants, laundry workers, etc., who are sending the vast majority of their pay (mostly tips) to their families in the Philippines, India and Jamaica to support their spouses and children. No problem. Flame away if it makes you feel better!:)

Edited May 13, 2014 by yogimax

[ZAC1972]

Correct. The cruise lines can afford to pay the service staff the appropriate wage. But in do so they would increase the cost of the cruise accordingly (plus profit margin). Furthermore, the cruising public's demand for lower cruise prices does not help.

 

The bananas don't come for free.

 

Folks, it's time to pay the piper.

 

A question of simple economics and balance as with any successful company. If they put the prices up too far, they lose out on a significant customer base. It may be relative to an individual's income, but generally speaking a cruise is not a cheap holiday. On the current prices the companies make huge profits to fund more vessels, refits etc. Would paying their staff a decent wage really eat into those margins so they couldn't function the same? OK, maybe they'd have to postpone the commissioning of that $300M ship until next year and just go with the $150M refit instead. Or maybe, just maybe, it may actually make more people decide that cruising is after all affordable so the company profits go up further and they can afford that ship after all......wouldn't that be something.....a question of balance.

 

Again, in my opinion, given the significant profit margins of these companies, they can easily achieve that balance, remain resilient and thus afford to keep the prices at the levels they are whilst still paying their staff properly; we are not talking about struggling organizations here, trust me.

 

Honestly, you have to admire the success of the psychology employed in the organizational literature of these companies. If I was the CEO of one of them, I would marvel at the fact that my company is about to invest another $150M in another refit, safe in the knowledge that I've successfully got so many people paying for that and my next new ship, as well as the wages of my staff on top......and being delighted to do so. When you strip it down, it is amazing and very clever is it not?:)

[Ourusualbeach]

Firstly, thank you for the welcome; it is appreciated.

 

Secondly, I apologize but I thought my original post clearly stated that if anyone's 'stiffing' the staff it certainly isn't me. I don't consider myself special, but I do consider myself entitled to receive good service for the price I choose to pay. I pay a lot of money for a cruise and the companies I pay that to make a huge profit (and I mean huge). I say again, if there is an issue with staff wages thus making the gratuities 'tremendously important to the staff' (and I'm not disputing there is), then I'm afraid I'm not the source of that problem. Just check out the profit margins of the leading companies (all published online); the figures are staggering by anyone's imagination. My friends, it may be my opinion, but I'm pretty confident that they really can afford to pay their staff....honest...and still make an exceptional profit. It is not yours, mine, or anyone else's responsibility to relieve them of that requirement.

 

 

Just to start I could not care one way or the other what people do but here are some facts that are just that. Facts.

 

For the past 10 years RCI has averaged just over $500 million profit annually. Sounds like a lot. Not really if you expect them to pay wages out of that.

 

Let's assume 1000 staff per ship as part of the tipping pool and there are 30 ships. Don't forget this is the corporate RCCL with 5 lines we are talking about.

 

That's 30,000 employees in the tipping pool. ( probably low, but I'll err on the side of caution.)

 

Paying each of those 30,000 employees a meager salary of say $20,000 per year would amount to a cost of $600 million.

 

That would mean that RCCL would have lost an average of $100 million per year if they chose to pay their employees even the most modest of salaries or they would have raised the cruise fares substantially as they would not operate at a continual loss.

 

Again go ahead and do what you want as I really don't care but don't kid yourself into thinking that the cruise lines can afford to pay the staff a salary without substantially raising prices.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Ourusualbeach

[gerif]

GLENBOY,

 

We have 2 babies aged 1 & 2, who have had to pay the same ammount for this cruise as anynother adult. We certainly wont be paying tips at this rate for them, they would be free on any other holiday , so give some of their fare to the staff for their tips.They dont even have a bed.

We will have them removed & at the end tip the recommended ammounts for the adults.

 

Then take them on another holiday if you don't want to pay. Seriously, they'll be sleeping on the floor with no bedding? I don't think so. Not using towels? No one will be removing their stinky diapers from your cabin? Or serving them food and cleaning up the mess they make?

 

I really wish the mainstream cruiselines would raise their prices to cover gratuities for people like you, but it is what it is - enjoy your trip but do be decent enough to inform the staff that you don't feel they are deserving of the portion of their salary you choose to withhold.

[karl_nj]

Gerif,

Is it fair that 2x10 year olds should have $300 dollars added for gratuities as well as their parents ?

 

Yes, it is.

[LMaxwell]

Ha! So I am being condemned for speaking up for waiters, assistant waiters, stateroom attendants, laundry workers, etc., who are sending the vast majority of their pay (mostly tips) to their families in the Philippines, India and Jamaica to support their spouses and children. No problem. Flame away if it makes you feel better!:)

 

Not at all. I am not sure why you are misreading my words 100%. I am not flaming you. I am in agreement with you. I am a bit perplexed at this point honestly.

[LMaxwell]

 

That would mean that RCCL would have lost an average of $100 million per year if they chose to pay their employees even the most modest of salaries or they would have raised the cruise fares substantially as they would not operate at a continual loss.

 

 

Profits are what is left after OpEx. Your argument assumes the cruiseline pays staff nothing to begin with.

 

No problem here with automatic daily gratuity amount, I think it is fair. Just like it is fair for a guest to tip personally in cash, or with the automatic amount.

 

Waiting for someone to explain to me why I have to pay gratuities almost 3 months ahead of time with My Time Dining, on board I am told those gratuities are not distributed for anywhere from 2 weeks to 1 month after that particular sailing. Sure sounds like RCI thinks I am the bank.

 

Also waiting for one of the people that say go on another vacation to be a brave enough soul to walk around a ship questioning and lecturing people on this:rolleyes:

[Biscuit1970]

In the USA who decides who should be tipped and who shouldn't ? Do you tip the cabin crew on planes - who serve you food and drink , are responsible for your safety and also cleaning up. When you go to mcdonalds and ask for a Big Mac and fries and the staff gets you a big mac and fries do you also tip them .Or in a supermarket do you tip the cashier ? I understand that when you go to a bar and ask for a drink and the staff get you a drink then you tip them.

There is obviously some jobs that rely on tips and some that don't - but which are which and who decides?

[Ourusualbeach]

Profits are what is left after OpEx. Your argument assumes the cruiseline pays staff nothing to begin with.

 

No problem here with automatic daily gratuity amount, I think it is fair. Just like it is fair for a guest to tip personally in cash, or with the automatic amount.

 

Waiting for someone to explain to me why I have to pay gratuities almost 3 months ahead of time with My Time Dining, on board I am told those gratuities are not distributed for anywhere from 2 weeks to 1 month after that particular sailing. Sure sounds like RCI thinks I am the bank.

 

Also waiting for one of the people that say go on another vacation to be a brave enough soul to walk around a ship questioning and lecturing people on this:rolleyes:

 

Your right. I did forget to subtract what they get paid currently. I only have what has been posted here by many people over a period of time but some have said $50 per month others $25 bi weekly so I'll go with that.

 

That works out to about $18 million per year based on previous numbers so instead of costing RCI $600 million it would only cost them $580 million.

 

These numbers are by no means exact but only an illustration to show that it is not as easy as some have posted for the big corporations to absorb this cost without increasing fares.

 

On another note I totally agree with your argument about prepaying the gratuities for MTD. It is quite ridiculous now that the MDR guests are having it charged daily to their seapass account. It's a holdover from the days of cash tipping at he end of the cruise to ensure that the wait staff in MTD actually received their tips as a diner could have a different waiter every night.

 

Once gratuities started being charged daily there was no need for this and it should have been eliminated and all passengers treated equally.

[ZAC1972]

Just to start I could not care one way or the other what people do but here are some facts that are just that. Facts.

 

For the past 10 years RCI has averaged just over $500 million profit annually. Sounds like a lot. Not really if you expect them to pay wages out of that.

 

Let's assume 1000 staff per ship as part of the tipping pool and there are 30 ships. Don't forget this is the corporate RCCL with 5 lines we are talking about.

 

That's 30,000 employees in the tipping pool. ( probably low, but I'll err on the side of caution.)

 

Paying each of those 30,000 employees a meager salary of say $20,000 per year would amount to a cost of $600 million.

 

That would mean that RCCL would have lost an average of $100 million per year if they chose to pay their employees even the most modest of salaries or they would have raised the cruise fares substantially as they would not operate at a continual loss.

 

Again go ahead and do what you want as I really don't care but don't kid yourself into thinking that the cruise lines can afford to pay the staff a salary without substantially raising prices.

 

Are you honestly suggesting that these multi-billion dollar companies cannot afford to pay their people? Really? And therefore we should be expected to help them out? I mean it's OK and ethical for a company in this position to continue expanding its fleet and refitting its ships, but paying it's people isn't an issue? Company economics is not a simple issue of making assumptions as you have done. Your argument makes a widespread declaration about levels of pay whilst retaining huge fleets, and numbers of employees etc etc. Any responsible and ethical company makes judgments over what it can and cannot afford in terms of operating costs and those operating costs mostly include paying its people properly. If it can't then it reduces its operating costs.

 

On your argument, any company that makes big profits shouldn't actually really function profitably without getting its customers to pay its staff on top of what they already pay for their product whatever that may be. Any glance at many well known companies will tell you that's nonsense. I'm not going to spend time dissecting the company accounts and therefore making suggestions about cost savings as I don't need to and I don't have time, but as I've said....they can pay their people.

Edited May 13, 2014 by ZAC1972

[kruzgal]

Why not try a different approach? As things currently stand, customers who pay the full gratuities are not only subsidising Royal Caribbean (by paying their wage bill) but also the many passengers that choose not to pay, which is extremely unfair. Why don't Royal Caribbean add a small amount to every cruise fair, pay the staff their wages and market themselves as a cruise line with included gratuities, as many of the more upscale cruise lines already do? It would be brilliant marketing and lead to an increase in bookings as people would like not having to pay gratuities, and also much fairer as everyone would be paying within their cruise fare. The amount added within the cruise fare could be much less than we are currently required to pay as everyone would be contributing within the cost of their holiday.

 

I personally hate the whole tipping issue and it actually puts me off cruise holidays, despite having sailed many times previously. Having the gratuities included would be a big bonus for me.

[NEMMRRC]

Perhaps the cruise lines can just add an extra $50 per day per person and hand out drinks without the extra charges. Right?

[kernow]

While I agree with those who say RCL should be paying their staff a fair wage, the fact is that they don't. I would certainly be happy to pay a higher basic price and have gratuities included.

 

Personally I could not look the lovely waiters and cabin stewards in the eye if I was intending to remove their gratuities but that's just me:)

 

Julie

[SteveH2508]

As far as crew wages are concerned - the market determines the rate (Minimum wage legislation not being relevant due to international flags of convenience). If the cruise lines had trouble staffing their ships, they would have to increase the wages and re-jig the remuneration system.

 

Judging by the reports of queues out of the door at the hiring agencies for cruise ship workers, this is not a problem, so the cruise lines have no incentive or driver to change a system which works for them.

 

If a significant number of passengers stopped booking because of the tipping system then that might provide a driver for change. It just isn't going to happen.

 

Market forces - Capitalism 101.

[Jan the City Fan]

Then take them on another holiday if you don't want to pay. Seriously, they'll be sleeping on the floor with no bedding? I don't think so. Not using towels? No one will be removing their stinky diapers from your cabin? Or serving them food and cleaning up the mess they make?

 

I really wish the mainstream cruiselines would raise their prices to cover gratuities for people like you, but it is what it is - enjoy your trip but do be decent enough to inform the staff that you don't feel they are deserving of the portion of their salary you choose to withhold.

 

Why should we go on a different holiday to please you. The amount of money we have paid for the children will more than pay for the staffs wages. Royal Caribbean need to give the staff some of the money we have paid them, why should we pay their wages. Very rude of you, we will tip for the adults but certainly not getting anymore money for the kids.

I look after children & on a low wage, which I chose to do as I enjoy it.. No one has ever given me a tip every time a change a nappy or clean up after them, & I certainly dont expect a tip for that. Royal should pay their wages not us.

[little britain]

You will make sure to tell the staff on the first day that you won't be tipping for the children won't you.....?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BekkaW]

Why should we go on a different holiday to please you. The amount of money we have paid for the children will more than pay for the staffs wages. Royal Caribbean need to give the staff some of the money we have paid them, why should we pay their wages. Very rude of you, we will tip for the adults but certainly not getting anymore money for the kids.

I look after children & on a low wage, which I chose to do as I enjoy it.. No one has ever given me a tip every time a change a nappy or clean up after them, & I certainly dont expect a tip for that. Royal should pay their wages not us.

 

I completely understand why you would think wages should be higher - I am from a non tipping country too - but the fact is they aren't higher. The fact is that the crew is paid almost entirely by tips. The fact is that when you choose cruising as your holiday you need to be aware of these circumstances. The fact is that only your servers will suffer if you remove tips, not Royal Caribbean. Some people have been overly aggressive in this thread with the way they have said this, but if you don't agree with the system you should consider not participating in it - ie choosing a different type of holiday.

 

Either you pay it as tips or cruise lines increase the fare, either way the customer is paying it. If one line increased the fare they would lose business to the others so they won't do it.

Edited May 13, 2014 by BekkaW

[yogimax]

we will tip for the adults but certainly not getting anymore money for the kids.

 

Jan, first, congratulations on the championship! It came down to the last day.

 

I saw you have two little ones, ages 1 & 2. While I am a strong supporter of automatic tips for adults, I see your point. You are already paying a significant amount for the kids and they won't be using all the services offered.

 

So here's the question... at what age do you think folks should pay tips for kids? Remember that at some point, they will have the added benefit of a children's program that will run most of the day. That is a tremendous value in itself.

 

My own thought is that children should be exempt from tips until they are old enough to use the kid's club. Whether they do or not is up to the parents, but that age should trigger the addition of tips.

Edited May 13, 2014 by yogimax

[galavant3]

I completely understand why you would think wages should be higher - I am from a non tipping country too - but the fact is they aren't higher.

 

Either you pay it as tips or cruise lines increase the fare, either way the customer is paying it. If one line increased the fare they would lose business to the others so they won't do it.

 

Well said. Any way you look at it, the passenger will be covering the additional cost. Either by increased fares or the tipping system.

 

I wish I was disciplined enough to not open these threads. I know how hard the staff works...long hours, time away from their families. I also wish the "tips" were mandatory service charges.

 

I don't know how anyone can remove the tips (special circumstances excluded) and face the waitstaff and cabin attendant. I wouldn't have the nerve.

[galavant3]

So here's the question... at what age do you think folks should pay tips for kids? Remember that at some point, they will have the added benefit of a children's program that will run most of the day. That is a tremendous value in itself.

 

The tips don't have anything to do with the children's program. Many people tip those workers separately (and I'm sure many do not).

[cello56]

I completely understand why you would think wages should be higher - I am from a non tipping country too - but the fact is they aren't higher. The fact is that the crew is paid almost entirely by tips. The fact is that when you choose cruising as your holiday you need to be aware of these circumstances. The fact is that only your servers will suffer if you remove tips, not Royal Caribbean. Some people have been overly aggressive in this thread with the way they have said this, but if you don't agree with the system you should consider not participating in it - ie choosing a different type of holiday.

 

Either you pay it as tips or cruise lines increase the fare, either way the customer is paying it. If one line increased the fare they would lose business to the others so they won't do it.

 

Very well said. Many of the posters in this thread like to rant on about the injustice of how RCI pays their employees, and how they SHOULD pay them more ..... yada, yada, yada. BUT THEY DON'T. Plain and simple. You can discuss what they should do until the cows come home. When you decide to opt out of gratuities, you are shafting a real live individual person right then and there. This is not some theoretical discussion about economics - this is a crew member who worked really hard to make your vacation the best it could be, and then you shafted him under the guise of ideology. If you are participating on this thread, then you 100% know and understand that crew are paid a stipend of $25 per week, and the rest of their income comes from tips. You are knowingly accepting the service from that crew member, and then choosing to not pay them. That is low. Really, really low.

 

While tipping may not be a part of YOUR culture, it IS the way crew are paid on every single mass market cruise ship. So please do not tell us that you are removing the tips out of principal. This is not principal, it is cheapness plain and simple.

[Grandma Dazzles]

Very well said. Many of the posters in this thread like to rant on about the injustice of how RCI pays their employees, and how they SHOULD pay them more ..... yada, yada, yada. BUT THEY DON'T. Plain and simple. You can discuss what they should do until the cows come home. When you decide to opt out of gratuities, you are shafting a real live individual person right then and there. This is not some theoretical discussion about economics - this is a crew member who worked really hard to make your vacation the best it could be, and then you shafted him under the guise of ideology. If you are participating on this thread, then you 100% know and understand that crew are paid a stipend of $25 per week, and the rest of their income comes from tips. You are knowingly accepting the service from that crew member, and then choosing to not pay them. That is low. Really, really low.

 

While tipping may not be a part of YOUR culture, it IS the way crew are paid on every single mass market cruise ship. So please do not tell us that you are removing the tips out of principal. This is not principal, it is cheapness plain and simple.

 

Very well said!

 

I am British by birth, but have lived in the U.S. for many years. As a frequent visitor to the UK I really do understand the difference in "tipping cultures." However, I also love to cruise and realize how the staff are paid on all cruise lines for the mass market, not just RC. People would be very upset if the cruise fare on RC suddenly increased, especially if they were comparing prices to another line that did not include tips.

 

As far as paying minimum wage, I wish someone with better knowledge than I would explain the U.S. minimum wage laws. Cruise line staff are not the only people to work for a "small salary." Many jobs in the U.S. - bar tenders, waitresses for example, also work on the same system. So it is not just cruise line employees.

 

Also, as I posted earlier in the thread, babies/children/teens should be charged their tips - they probably make more mess, use the facilities, linens, restaurants, etc. just like adults. I have walked past the doors of cabins with multiple passengers, cribs, etc. when the steward has been working, and wouldn't have known where to begin cleaning up!

 

I am a "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" type of person. I try to learn about a country and culture before a trip so as to do the "right thing."

 

I do not like the flaming and name calling that often happens on these boards, but I do wish that people would accept the information they have been given, either by their TA or cruise line, or other cruise critic members, and leave it at that.

[caribbean sailor]

Why should we go on a different holiday to please you. The amount of money we have paid for the children will more than pay for the staffs wages. Royal Caribbean need to give the staff some of the money we have paid them, why should we pay their wages. Very rude of you, we will tip for the adults but certainly not getting anymore money for the kids.

I look after children & on a low wage, which I chose to do as I enjoy it.. No one has ever given me a tip every time a change a nappy or clean up after them, & I certainly dont expect a tip for that. Royal should pay their wages not us.

 

I agree with you young kids should not have to pay tips.Soiled diaper or put in a plastic bag.Trash is taken out as usual, no contact with human waste.Spend your tip money as you see fit.

[galavant3]

As far as paying minimum wage, I wish someone with better knowledge than I would explain the U.S. minimum wage laws. Cruise line staff are not the only people to work for a "small salary." Many jobs in the U.S. - bar tenders, waitresses for example, also work on the same system. So it is not just cruise line employees.

 

 

I don't think cruise line employees are subject to US law. Plus, I would imagine wage laws are different for those that are provided room and board.

 

People that rely on tips typically earn much more than minimum wage which is why it is allowed. They are taxed on wages plus tips (or at least a portion of the tips). I think the employer bears some responsibility to insure that workers make at least minimum wage.

 

It has been several years since I was a waitress but I know I made much more than minimum wage at the time.

[galavant3]

I agree with you young kids should not have to pay tips.Soiled diaper or put in a plastic bag.Trash is taken out as usual, no contact with human waste.Spend your tip money as you see fit.

 

Keep in mind that kids are tended to very well by the wait staff. Plus, they will use sheets and towels presumably. I understand that you feel these services should be provided for free but it would be a good idea to let the staff know that you will not be tipping on behalf of your kids so they aren't surprised at the end of the cruise, or left wondering, if perhaps, they did something wrong.