Quality of food lower now on Princess

[Bill B]

If you believe Bruce, it seems he has been successful at losing money on land and at sea.

[SteveH2508]

I read BruceMuzz's cost analysis of speciality restaurants with interest.

 

It struck me that NCL (I think that is to whom he was reporting), have recently gone over to a-la-carte pricing in some of their speciality restaurants. I wondered if that meant that they could add a dollar here or there on each dish without people really noticing, rather than raising the cover charge which everyone notices? Just a thought.

[GUT2407]

Interesting story...#1 rated Michelin you don't say?

 

That's interesting considering that Michelin doesn't rank restaurants in any particular order, rather they award either 1 star, 2 stars or 3 stars to individual restaurants. Furthermore, (and of utmost impotance to your claim) Michelin didn't release an American guide until as recent as 2006 -- a quarter century after you claimed to have opened in S.F.

 

Up until then, Michelin had only released their red guides in Europe(for European locales).

 

"it was a great success. But it never made any profit. Operating costs were just too high." -- This is an oxymoron. Of course you know this right?:rolleyes:

 

Your story seems very loosely based on the venture of "Stars" - created by Jeremiah Towers in SF during the early '80s.

 

That stated...Please carry on with your 'cruise industry insider knowledge':rolleyes: Don't let me interrupt...

 

 

Which hopefully now shows his stories to be just that.... stories.

 

Maybe now everyone will stop believing everything he posts.

 

I doubt it, but one can but live in hope.

[victory2020]

We have done many 3/4 day cruises & many 7 day cruises. We were on the Dec 1st 3 day. We have always found food on shorter cruises to be less quality & more "fillers" ie potato, rice, bread, pasta. Example is at salad area; usually find walnuts or pecans (though theses are getting rare on longer cruises). This 3 day had sunflower seeds or pumpkin seeds.

In dining room have found the lower quality fish, starters & entrees. also we had the worst fettucine alfredo we're ever had - I'm assuming they were using milk instead of cream & maybe less cheese.

We did have great service everywhere - guess we were lucky.

[shredie]

Which hopefully now shows his stories to be just that.... stories.

 

Maybe now everyone will stop believing everything he posts.

 

I doubt it, but one can but live in hope.

 

I was once chastised by important people for posting some doubts about BM. Your post, and doubtless this one, will be removed. I'll probably be banned for life. :p

[elliair]

On the Caribbean and Royal, I thought the food quality was good (and I am picky). However, I love those bread sticks with sesame and poppy seeds on them and on a 15-day cruise they only had them 1 time!:mad: On the Royal, we ate at Alfredos at least 3 times and the food was excellent. Not a big menu, but nice enough to choose from. Crab Shack was good no complaints. It sure did beat the Star Princess menu. I call the Star Princess the sausage ship. Practically every dish on the buffet - everyday contained sausage. I think Princess got some kind of deal on sausage. Even the meatloaf had a hot dog stuck down the center of it! They'll never improve upon the bacon, it's a lost cause. IMHO it's not even bacon.

[Loonbeam]

Its an interesting proposition, but it's not particularly feasible (at least from the food side, wine is another matter)...

 

1> Not only have the ships added specialty restaurants, they have added passengers. Lots and lots of passengers. There has also been the move to Anytime dining. These two changes have a LOT of impact on what the galley is actually capable of providing (its a lot easier to produce fine dining for a large venue with set seating).

 

2> As I noted above, cruise fares are not increasing in line with food costs, especially for high end products. Adding more people back into the MDR aggravates that issue. This is not going to change any time soon.

 

3> There is a difference between 'losing money' per meal and 'losing enough money to impact MDR offerings. I called one of my former contacts who used to work at Princess and is now at another line doing a similar job. The short answer is, depending on what you order, yes, the line may lose some money on a given specialty meal. However, this is not a lot of money, typically $1 or $2 per diner (a few entrees, like filet can go higher, or if you order additional entrees which is why other lines now surcharge those or have gone a la carte.). And if they buy a nice wine bottle, the equation flips. But if you go with an average of $1 and assume maybe 400 people in a given night, if ALL of them order the most expensive options and don't buy alcohol, the line is out a few hundred bucks per night max. That's easily offset by marketing and other pluses. If they sell one more balcony cabin to someone who likes Curtis Stone, they covered several nights right there. In terms of the MDR, allowing for Royal Princess for example, the difference to the MDR could be about $.25 per pax per day.

 

The problem here is thinking of specialty dining as an independent entity and it's not, it's part of an overall brand and marketing scheme which looks at total pax revenue, not just segment revenues. If Specialty dining started to be a drag on the bottom line (like it was at other lines for various reasons) either prices will increase or go a la carte...

 

But understand it is entirely possible for any item on ship to operate at breakeven or a loss as long as in service to the greater good.

 

As I noted above however, wine is a different issue. Having a qualified wine team on board is a comparatively minimal cost and would add a lot of value..

You're right (you will not change my mind).

 

Because, if specialty restaurants were losing money, they could close them and put the savings into improving the food and service of the MDR. Remember wine stewards and what the food was like before specialty restaurants? Then, they could promote the dining as being SO good they don't need specialty restaurants! It could be a win-win situation for the pax and the line.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Loonbeam

[keithm]

interesting story...#1 rated michelin you don't say?

 

That's interesting considering that michelin doesn't rank restaurants in any particular order, rather they award either 1 star, 2 stars or 3 stars to individual restaurants. Furthermore, (and of utmost impotance to your claim) michelin didn't release an american guide until as recent as 2006 -- a quarter century after you claimed to have opened in s.f.

 

Up until then, michelin had only released their red guides in europe(for european locales).

 

"it was a great success. But it never made any profit. Operating costs were just too high." -- this is an oxymoron. Of course you know this right?:rolleyes:

 

Your story seems very loosely based on the venture of "stars" - created by jeremiah towers in sf during the early '80s.

 

That stated...please carry on with your 'cruise industry insider knowledge':rolleyes: Don't let me interrupt...

snap!

[keithm]

So following your logic, how do you explain the libraries, card rooms, movie theaters, pizzerias, ice cream stands, shuffleboard courts, tennis courts, teen clubs, and childrens clubs on ships??Last time I checked (this morning) none of those places makes any profit on my ship. Many of them cost a great deal of money to install. Those places are taking space that could be used for profitable ventures. But they will not be gone so fast that it would make your head spin. In fact, they are not going anywhere.

 

You are correct that comparing a specialty restaurant on a ship to a steak house on land is 'apples to oranges'.

For many years I managed the #1 rated (Michelin) restaurant in America. It was also the most expensive restaurant to dine in, in the USA. As you might imagine, it was quite elegant. We installed it in 1980 in an existing hotel in San Francisco. Total set up cost was nearly US$ 2 million. With an average check of US$600 per person, fully booked every night, and a three year waitlist for reservations, it was a great success. But it never made any profit. Operating costs were just too high. Luckily our owners used the prestige of my restaurant as a PR / selling point for their hotel chain, and did not mind losing money to do it.

 

In the 1990's I was busy taking out new ships for a cruise line famous for specialty restaurants that charged extra. The average cost of installing one of those extra charge venues on our ships was US $5 million. We played with the cover charges many times, raising and lowering them in order to control demand - but we never came even close to the $600 per person I had been getting in my land-based restaurant.

 

I did a financial analysis of the operation for our senior management.

I discovered that if the extra charge restaurant was fully booked every night for the entire expected 20 year life of the ship, and if we charged a $20 per person cover charge, we would be able to pay off only the initial opening costs after 10 years. But we would never be able to pay for the daily operating costs and the costs of the food before the ship was sold or scrapped. Even if we added in the daily amount of money budgeted from your cruise fare for feeding in the MDR, we still could not break even (much less make a profit) before the ship was scrapped or sold.

At that point the analysis stopped. I could have looked at renovation/replacement costs and the possibility of enlarging the venue, but the numbers would just go deeper into the red.

Our senior management looked at the report, agreed with it, thanked me, and decided to add more specialty restaurants on future ships.

 

Just like the library, childrens club, water slides, teen disco, card rooms, and movie theaters, specialty restaurants are expensive to install and can never make a profit.

But they do attract a certain niche cruiser who might go elsewhere if we didn't offer these loss leaders.

Would you care to name the #1 Michelin star restaurant that you managed? Or is that a state secret?

[Colo Cruiser]

I was once chastised by important people for posting some doubts about BM. Your post, and doubtless this one, will be removed. I'll probably be banned for life. :p

 

Would you care to name the #1 Michelin star restaurant that you managed? Or is that a state secret?

 

 

=gut2407]Which hopefully now shows his stories to be just that.... stories.

 

Maybe now everyone will stop believing everything he posts.

 

I doubt it, but one can but live in hope.

 

Isn't the internet wonderful. You could be anyone you want to be.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Colo Cruiser

[OzKiwiJJ]

I think BM was a fisherman in another life. :rolleyes: ;) :p

[BruceMuzz]

Interesting story...#1 rated Michelin you don't say?

 

That's interesting considering that Michelin doesn't rank restaurants in any particular order, rather they award either 1 star, 2 stars or 3 stars to individual restaurants. Furthermore, (and of utmost impotance to your claim) Michelin didn't release an American guide until as recent as 2006 -- a quarter century after you claimed to have opened in S.F.

 

Up until then, Michelin had only released their red guides in Europe(for European locales).

 

"it was a great success. But it never made any profit. Operating costs were just too high." -- This is an oxymoron. Of course you know this right?:rolleyes:

 

Your story seems very loosely based on the venture of "Stars" - created by Jeremiah Towers in SF during the early '80s.

 

 

 

That stated...Please carry on with your 'cruise industry insider knowledge':rolleyes: Don't let me interrupt...

 

It is true that Guide Michelin did not officially rate American establishments in their guidebooks in the 1980s. But the Michelin people visited my restaurant after the Chef / Owner appeared on the cover of Time Magazine. They awarded us a certificate naming us "Best Restaurant in America". It now hangs over my desk as I am typing this.

A few years later, the American Zagat Guide came out and awarded us something very similar. But that was not nearly as special.

 

Was this restaurant a success? It made zero profit for nearly a decade. The owners thought it was a success. Why else would they keep it open? It allowed a small hotel chain to attract investors that made it into a large hotel chain.

 

Stars and Jeremiah Tower on the other hand was a terminally trendy restaurant with a hack chef. The whole thing imploded after a few years and the so-called Celebrity Chef disappeared.

 

Now I' m going to carry on with my day job - managing ships.

[BruceMuzz]

I read BruceMuzz's cost analysis of speciality restaurants with interest.

 

It struck me that NCL (I think that is to whom he was reporting), have recently gone over to a-la-carte pricing in some of their speciality restaurants. I wondered if that meant that they could add a dollar here or there on each dish without people really noticing, rather than raising the cover charge which everyone notices? Just a thought.

 

Steve,

Good guess.

You are correct.

The original management at NCL is now gone, and replaced by newer people with different priorities. The business model has also changed a bit over the past few decades.

The ala carte pricing is slowly replacing the cover charge concept as a way to control demand AND increase the overall revenue in the specialty restaurants. The constantly- changing cover charges just didn't work, and created an unfair point of comparison between the " free" dining room and the extra charge restaurants.

At this point, the specialty restaurants are still too small, with too few seats, to make much of a dent in the MDR crowding, or to make any appreciable profit. But we can see that is slowly changing. Many of the new specialty restaurants are offering a bit lower quality - something that many cruisers are more comfortable and more familiar with. And they are less costly to build and operate.

RCCL has developed this idea further than the others at this point, basically creating a shopping mall food court at sea, which many cruisers seem to appreciate. Consolidating food production for several smaller restaurants in one central "specialty galley" has allowed them to dramatically reduce building and food costs.

I believe that they and the other mass market lines will take this idea much further, which will further dumb down the dining and overall mass market cruise experience.

[sfaaa]

In N America, it is not uncommon hotel onsite restaurants don't make money. They are there to provide a convenient amenity to hotel guests and as part of mandatory requirements to qualify as 4 star property under the AH&L and AAA standard. Closing them is simply not an option regardless of their profitably.

[mrs and mrs]

Some are on the endangered species list, while others are pfft.:)

[big_schots]

Went on the Crown on a 7 day Alaskan cruise, last summer. The average cruise fare was MUCH higher than a regular Caribbean and/or Mexican cruise. The food was excellent, and the quality/selection was much higher than I had come to expect. I assumed that since the average cruise fare was close to double the normal "discounted" Caribbean rates, they had room to up the food budget. I was taken aback when I saw Halibut on the buffet for lunch one afternoon. It goes for close to $20 per pound, here in Texas. I'm sure they got it for much less, sailing from Seattle, but it still was a delicious treat.

Edited December 6, 2016 by big_schots

[shredie]

Isn't the internet wonderful. You could be anyone you want to be.

 

I want to be Princess Diana. :p

[ar1950]

I want to be Princess Diana. :p

 

Are you sure? That car crash might be a little unpleasant.....:eek:

Edited December 7, 2016 by ar1950

[shredie]

Are you sure? That car crash might be a little unpleasant.....:eek:

 

Hey! Internet! I can ignore that crash! :)

Edited December 7, 2016 by shredie

[Bill B]

I called one of my former contacts who used to work at Princess and is now at another line doing a similar job. The short answer is, depending on what you order, yes, the line may lose some money on a given specialty meal. However, this is not a lot of money, typically $1 or $2 per diner (a few entrees, like filet can go higher, or if you order additional entrees which is why other lines now surcharge those or have gone a la carte.). And if they buy a nice wine bottle, the equation flips.

 

So, the specialty restaurants - on Princess at least - are run on a cost recovery basis and on average break even (or very close to it). They don't lose money.

[Loonbeam]

Note that I said average. If I had to read between the lines, I would expect that Sterling, etc operate at a small to moderate loss as does Stone, where Sabatinis is probably better and may even be slightly profitable. So overall they do lose money, just not buckets of it. And if you get a cruise where the steakhouse is busy but Sabatinis is not, that skews the equations same as if people lean to more expensive cuts. And I am certain before the menu changes at Sabatinis, the overall loss was higher. This also doesn't include meals paid for with comps, comped OBC, etc, which are pure losses...

 

Fleet wide, if each ship loses between $300-$500 a day, that's still real bottom line money - a couple of million a year in direct costs, but they have obviously decided for now that's an acceptable cost.

 

I came up with a specific examples of why it might be a value as a loss leader - since they have a venue like Sabatinis they can offer the suite benefit of a privateish quiet breakfast, or as a special event venue for a cost. If they didn't have it, this would either be a non benefit or they would have to section off part of the MDR to offer it (which is something I expect to be a challenge with the new class and am interested to see how that plays).

 

 

Also, costs of maintaining an extra kitchen, design elements, additional logistical load were not considered in the per plate estimate - just staff, food, supplies.

 

On a side note, NCL is rapidly painting themselves into a corner. They are moving to a more a-la-carte multi venue model but also giving away a LOT of specialty dining with promos (which of course are baked into the fare to some extent). When those promos end, they might find themselves with a much bigger loss leader than expected, as some of those venues are expensive to operate (Teppanyaki for example). Without the 4 free specialty dining meals we got, we probably would have dined at one, maybe 2 at most.

 

 

 

 

So, the specialty restaurants - on Princess at least - are run on a cost recovery basis and on average break even (or very close to it). They don't lose money.

[yuccaman]

No business says - "Hey, let's do this so we can lose money." If it was true, and I was a Carnival Corporation stockholder, I'd be upset... and calling for removal of specialty restaurants.

 

Yeah, sure, and then could you imagine the threads here addressing any cruise line XYZ that didn't have them... "I would NEVER go WITH THEM, they don't have specialty restaurants!"- thus the reason for these loss-leaders/barely-covering-their-way venues. Marketing and planning is often a task of keeping up with the Jones.

[Bill B]

Marketing and planning is often a task of keeping up with the Jones.

 

Yeah... and it's all NCL's fault! I believe they were the first line to come out with a specialty restaurant in 2000 or there abouts (just as I started cruising).

[caribill]

In N America, it is not uncommon hotel onsite restaurants don't make money. They are there to provide a convenient amenity to hotel guests and as part of mandatory requirements to qualify as 4 star property under the AH&L and AAA standard. Closing them is simply not an option regardless of their profitably.

 

The founder of Holiday Inns (Kermit Wilson if I remember correctly) said that he expected the restaurants in Holiday Inns to provide 50% of the overall profit at each hotel.

 

With many hotel restaurants charging more for a glass of milk than I pay for a gallon in the supermarket, I find it hard to believe they do not make money.

[sfaaa]

The founder of Holiday Inns (Kermit Wilson if I remember correctly) said that he expected the restaurants in Holiday Inns to provide 50% of the overall profit at each hotel.

 

With many hotel restaurants charging more for a glass of milk than I pay for a gallon in the supermarket, I find it hard to believe they do not make money.

 

Unless you are referring to Las Vegas strip, how often do you see huge line up waiting for dinner tables outside a Holliday Inn restaurant vs. say your local popular eateries or some well known chain restaurants on a Saturday night? Many hotel restaurants are also unionized which means they must pay union scale wages plus benefits to staff working in the dining room and kitchen. No $5/hr college kid minimum wage with zero benefit. The two hotel F&B outlets that normally generate a profit are the bar/lounge and catering department.