As service goes down profits go up

[RuthC]

In our 8 years on HAL ships we have noticed no difference in cabin service, entertainment and onboard services. Except the loss of the librarian, but that also coincided with the huge passenger shift to electronic readers also observed over that same time period.

 

The main improvements have been in the variety and freshness of the food choices both in the dining room, Lido and auxiliary dining options. Another major improvement has been the refinement of the overall decor.

 

We travel for the travel experience itself; not necessarily for the onboard experience. So our onboard expectations may differ widely from others. The inherent charms and courtesies of HAL staff at every level have remained consistent and welcoming.

It makes sense that since you "travel for the travel experience itself; not necessarily for the onboard experience", that you haven't "noticed the difference in cabin service, entertainment, onboard services,...".

You simply weren't paying attention to them.

 

But that does not mean they don't exist, and the levels have dropped significantly in the last several years.

 

Daytime activities serving the purpose of just having fun, and winning some decent prizes, have long gone. So has the amount of staff that used to lead these activities.

Evening entertainment has been determined by Seattle, with little room to make changes based on what that particular group of passengers prefers. Music venues have become generic in what's offered, if anything is offered there at all anymore.

Try to find a venue playing cocktail/dance music before second sitting dinner. :rolleyes: After eating dinner there is nothing much to do except go to bed. :mad:

 

If the activity doesn't generate income, it's not offered anymore.

 

And don't even get me started on how the quality of food has gone down! Much poorer quality meats, poorly prepared. Used to be I had a hard time choosing dinner, as there were so many things I liked. Now? I have a hard time choosing dinner because there's nothing on the menu.

even Gala nights send me to the Lido, because the choices are so bad in the dining room.

[OlsSalt]

We have found that cabin service levels have remained constant.

 

We have noticed a significant decline in the food and food service. Service the the MDR's has deteriorated. Less staff.

 

We have definately noticed a decline in the quality of the food, the offerings, and the preparation in the MDR. Most noticeable to us are the beef dishes, and the Lido offerings. Especially cheeses, salads,fruits, and cold meats.

 

I believe that all of the mass market lines are attempting to herd customers to

pay dining venues and packages that include optional dining venues by cutting back in the base MDR and Lido type venues.

 

Entertainment is hit and miss. Though we expect to board one day and see pay for play jukeboxes in the lounges. The shows are hardly of a quality that they could charge a fee for admissions....otherwise they would.

 

What you are noticing are things that matter to you. What you might be overlooking are the variety of new things that matter to others - like all the special diet demands many of the newer passengers now make who do continue to get "premium" attention from the MDR staff.

 

Staff and facilities can only stretch so far and they now respond to a far more varied passenger demand, which in turn means limiting previous expectations that responded more efficiently to a one-size-fits all.

 

Not sure why anyone would expect lavish entertainment productions again considering the inherent limitations on staff and space. Amusement for the evening is probably the better expectation, and the variety of offerings in response again to a far wider range of tastes has also been a recent change.

[RuthC]

Not sure why anyone would expect lavish entertainment productions again considering the inherent limitations on staff and space.

Because HAL used to offer them. Not having the same level of evening show is a decrease.

Amusement for the evening is probably the better expectation, and the variety of offerings in response again to a far wider range of tastes has also been a recent change.

The variety of music styles offered at night has gone down significantly. Not to mention the amount of time the "amusement" is offered.

 

But since you don't pay attention to these things, you may not have noticed.

[Sopwith]

By way of clarification, I did not say that there was anything wrong with Carnival making a profit. Profit is actually a good thing, for reasons that have already been pointed out.

 

Over the past ten+ years HAL has made a calculated decision to change their business strategy to appeal to the more price-sensitive segment of the market, as have other cruise lines. Clearly this segment is dominant, and the strategy has paid off. Good for them, I guess.

 

What I said was their chosen strategy is no longer a good match for us. There are other alternatives out there that are a better fit, including some that don't involve cruising.

[John Cruise]

I totally agree with Ruth. HAL has gotten so boring, not only with

their menu selections and quality, but there is so little to do, day or

night. The daily program is just a sales sheet. It's back to land travel

where you can actually get excited about things again. I know there are

port visits but they are getting shorter as well. Sad really.

[Randyk47]

Did you consider the cost and competition for labor into your thinking?

 

Yes, that's part of cost containment in my mind. They've certainly been forced by the cost of operations, which would include labor, to in simple terms either reduce labor cost by cutting staff or raise fares. The somewhat glutted market, particularly in say the Caribbean and Alaska, has kept fare prices down in relationship to inflation. So they have to look to what is the quickest and relatively easiest place to reduce costs and service is one of those "low hanging fruits" that can be picked. I'd imagine every department has had to come up with cost cutting proposals, programs, etc., and service is easy for us passengers to see relative to least obvious reductions.

[POA1]

Maybe I'm the only one reading the internals, but the big driver looks to be lower fuel costs.

[OlsSalt]

Yes, that's part of cost containment in my mind. They've certainly been forced by the cost of operations, which would include labor, to in simple terms either reduce labor cost by cutting staff or raise fares. The somewhat glutted market, particularly in say the Caribbean and Alaska, has kept fare prices down in relationship to inflation. So they have to look to what is the quickest and relatively easiest place to reduce costs and service is one of those "low hanging fruits" that can be picked. I'd imagine every department has had to come up with cost cutting proposals, programs, etc., and service is easy for us passengers to see relative to least obvious reductions.

 

We mainly use HAL for its more unique and often occasional special itinerary offerings.

 

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of its revenues between those more routine Alaska/Caribbean (and Mediterranean?) routes and the rest of their more far-ranging speciality offerings where there is less competition.

[bUU]

The investments being made are going to appeal to those at whom they're aimed, not those who would prefer things never change.

[ski ww]

You can never keep all the people happy all the time. It's a good thing that Carnival is making money so that those that own stock can get OBC. You'll always hear, " things weren't like this in the old days" are parents said it, we said it & our children will say it. Things change, history will tell us if it was for the better or the worse. Enjoy your cruise well you're still healthy & wealthy enough to do so. Happy New Year.

Allan

[whogo]

As I have not seen "a lot of improvements", I would appreciate your indicating what and where they are...

A number of things have improved since we first cruised HAL 18 years ago. We can now go directly to our cabin upon embarkation and can stay there until debarking. Auto-gratuities make tipping much more pleasant as far as I am concerned, no more fiddling around with envelopes on the last night and no smarmy head waiters stopping by nightly to ask about our day. Open seating dining is a nice newer option. Smoking restrictions greatly improve our cruise experience.

 

I agree that cruising is not like it used to be, but waiters and stewards have gotten the job done well on our HAL cruises. I do not want or need more attention. I have been in dining establishments where the waiter stands at attention across the room waiting until his services are required and it creeps me out.

 

I love the OP's surcharges on surcharges comment. I do not like seeing more and more cabins and less and less public space. I still have great cruises at a price I can afford. Two of our great cruises have been on the Veendam, possibly the most poorly rebuilt ship in the fleet. I know that if I want or need anything different I can switch to a different cruise line.

[TAD2005]

After reading all of the above, as a 3-star Mariner, with my first HAL cruise in 1995, (had a 11 year break, out of the country) we have noticed a reduction in MDR staff, especially with a full ship. Yes, the food menu options are slightly less, but still good. Cabin attendants have personally complained to me about the increased number of cabins they are responsible for. There is only a short window of time in the mornings for your cabin to be cleaned. If you come back from breakfast too early, your cabin steward will pass you by and your cabin will be not cleaned until you head to dinner.

However, it still is the most economical way to "get away" for a few weeks. And, other than the airline connections, the most relaxing holiday one could find.

My only hope is that the "bean counters" at HAL do not look at the airlines and their continued process of charging for everything involved with your flight. I am still waiting to see coin receptors on the bathroom doors and on the life vest under your seat. The airline profits, just in baggage fees and change fees are obscene, and they have nothing to do with the low fuel costs. I'm hoping that Carnival will not get as greedy as the airlines have gotten and follow their business plans..

[BruceMuzz]

This follows the Walmart theory of business.

The general public will buy anything - so long as it is cheap.

They will complain about the reduced quality and service - but they will continue to buy the product.

Walmart and the mass market cruise lines prove this every day of the year.

[bUU]

And consumer behaviors will continue to dictate what service providers do.

[OlsSalt]

And consumer behaviors will continue to dictate what service providers do.

 

Agree. Willing buyers meet willing sellers - the animal spirits still rule the market place. And some of those critters sure do growl a lot.

[Sopwith]

Delving a little deeper into Carnival's financials for the year ending Nov 30, 2016 reveals a few more interesting factoids:

 

1. Occupancy percentage = 105.9% (based on 100% = two people per rentable cabin, total of just over 80 million person-days)

 

2. Gross revenue yield = $201.97 per person per day (based on 100% occupancy), net revenue (net of out of pocket costs such as commissions and transportation) = $167.06, of which $123.11 is ticket revenue and $43.95 is onboard and "other" revenue.

 

3. Gross cruise costs (based on 100% occupancy) = $142.73

[SC_GAY_Cruiser]

Is it also fair to say that many of us who "live" on cruise critic are getting tired of the same-o same-o? My upcoming 9th cruise is never going to be as great as the first time I walked on the Eurodam some 10 yrs ago with my eyes in amazement of the ship. Will I have a great time on the K-dam.....you betcha!

 

Please don't compare boarding a cruise ship to walking into a War-Mart !

 

dave

[OlsSalt]

Cruise -eat - play -sleep -cruise - eat - play - sleep - cruise - etc, etc, etc

 

Not too many ways to play the basics.

[cruisetheworld67]

It makes sense that since you "travel for the travel experience itself; not necessarily for the onboard experience", that you haven't "noticed the difference in cabin service, entertainment, onboard services,...".

You simply weren't paying attention to them.

 

But that does not mean they don't exist, and the levels have dropped significantly in the last several years.

 

Daytime activities serving the purpose of just having fun, and winning some decent prizes, have long gone. So has the amount of staff that used to lead these activities.

Evening entertainment has been determined by Seattle, with little room to make changes based on what that particular group of passengers prefers. Music venues have become generic in what's offered, if anything is offered there at all anymore.

Try to find a venue playing cocktail/dance music before second sitting dinner. :rolleyes: After eating dinner there is nothing much to do except go to bed. :mad:

 

If the activity doesn't generate income, it's not offered anymore.

 

And don't even get me started on how the quality of food has gone down! Much poorer quality meats, poorly prepared. Used to be I had a hard time choosing dinner, as there were so many things I liked. Now? I have a hard time choosing dinner because there's nothing on the menu.

even Gala nights send me to the Lido, because the choices are so bad in the dining room.

 

I understand your frustration and you seem pretty tuned in to the decline in HAL versus years ago.

My question is a general one. Why continue to cruise...or at least why continue to cruise with HAL and give then your dollars if you feel the "decline" is as it is?

Is it because at the end of day they still offer value....or are you too comfortable with HAL to switch to another cruise line?

 

My wife and I are thinking of trying Seabourn or Oceania and cruising once a year instead of 2-3 times a year with HAL. I think many long time HAL cruisers have achieved 4 or 5 star mariner status with HAL and do not want to give up those perks and are just "comfortable" and familair with HAL that they endure the year to year decline they have experienced.

[navybankerteacher]

I understand your frustration and you seem pretty tuned in to the decline in HAL versus years ago.

My question is a general one. Why continue to cruise...or at least why continue to cruise with HAL and give then your dollars if you feel the "decline" is as it is?

Is it because at the end of day they still offer value....or are you too comfortable with HAL to switch to another cruise line?

 

My wife and I are thinking of trying Seabourn or Oceania and cruising once a year instead of 2-3 times a year with HAL. I think many long time HAL cruisers have achieved 4 or 5 star mariner status with HAL and do not want to give up those perks and are just "comfortable" and familair with HAL that they endure the year to year decline they have experienced.

 

Switching to a line which offers more of what used to be standard on HAL is, of course, an option - even though it means less frequent sailing. However, if you do not want to limit frequency - you stick with what you can afford ---- but that does not mean you should ignore what declines have taken place. I still prefer HAL over other mass market lines- but Imwould have to be a blind fan to not notice the downgrading of the experience.

 

As a practical matter, we no longer cruise just for the on board experience - but more for the transportation than the cruise. We will cruise HAL to Hawaii, because we have a grandson stationed in San Diego, we want to see Hawaii, and would prefer not to fly all the way. Future plans involve repositionings - to get to, or home from, trips to Europe.

 

What used to be an enjoyable stand alone experience has been eroded by the providers in their search for an ever-wider market. Sure, the cost of cruising adjusted for inflation is very low - and I have to applaud their acumen in growing their business - I just regret the fact that they no longer sell what I really want to buy.

[RuthC]

I understand your frustration and you seem pretty tuned in to the decline in HAL versus years ago.

My question is a general one. Why continue to cruise...or at least why continue to cruise with HAL and give then your dollars if you feel the "decline" is as it is?

Is it because at the end of day they still offer value....or are you too comfortable with HAL to switch to another cruise line?

Let's take the big picture question first---why cruise at all. Cruising is the only way I have come up with for a little old lady, who is disabled and travels solo, to get around this world. I have been to all seven continents in comfort, and been well taken care of in the process. Cruising offers an opportunity to get out there, be pampered, meet up with others for more than a passing moment, and have a great time in the evening. At least on HAL, it has done that last one, but not so much now.

 

Why HAL? For the last several years I have had a couple of HAL-related goals. I wanted to achieve my platinum medallion (got it), and I wanted to sail every ship in the fleet (did that, too). Then the Koningsdam was launched, and there went the complete set. I had to cancel my cruise on that ship this year, but the goal remains.

 

In the meantime, I have tried one other line (Oceania), and have researched others which I may try. Oceania was a poor replacement for HAL, based on what I cruise for. The itineraries aren't as good, food & service were poor, there was less entertainment at night than even HAL offers, I didn't find them disabled friendly, and I had to pay four times as much to get aboard in the first place. Not worth it to me.

I have also researched Seabourn, Viking Ocean, and Saga, which is a strong contender for my business. Saga appears to be what HAL used to be when I fell in love with that line.

 

These reasons are valid for me, and others will have their own reasons for staying, leaving, or adding other lines to the mix. But that does not change the fact that HAL has deteriorated in the last several years.

Edited December 29, 2016 by RuthC

[RocketMan275]

 

What used to be an enjoyable stand alone experience has been eroded by the providers in their search for an ever-wider market. Sure, the cost of cruising adjusted for inflation is very low - and I have to applaud their acumen in growing their business - I just regret the fact that they no longer sell what I really want to buy.

 

That's really the point. Holland has changed their product to adapt to a changing audience. The changes may be seen as some as a degradation in quality and others may consider the changes to be improvements.

 

Look at some of the largest complaints in the last few months. Prepared sandwiches in the Lido, removing the library, and the Koingsdam promenade.

[Randyk47]

I understand your frustration and you seem pretty tuned in to the decline in HAL versus years ago.

My question is a general one. Why continue to cruise...or at least why continue to cruise with HAL and give then your dollars if you feel the "decline" is as it is?

Is it because at the end of day they still offer value....or are you too comfortable with HAL to switch to another cruise line?

 

My wife and I are thinking of trying Seabourn or Oceania and cruising once a year instead of 2-3 times a year with HAL. I think many long time HAL cruisers have achieved 4 or 5 star mariner status with HAL and do not want to give up those perks and are just "comfortable" and familair with HAL that they endure the year to year decline they have experienced.

 

I can't speak for Ruth, and wouldn't even think of it :), but we've done exactly that and moved on to Seabourn and Silversea and more distant and exotic destinations. We'd rather cruise less often than more often for a less than satisfying experience. It works for us but understand there are many reasons not for everybody.

[iancal]

Those three issues don't even make the radar with us-sandwiches, library, promenade deck.

 

We select a cruise based on value. Our perception of HAL over the past few years is that their value, based on our perception, has slipped below that offered by several other lines. Specifically Princess, Celebrity, and lately some RCI ships. I suspect that there are those who still view the line as a premium product. It isn't.

 

We vote with our feet, cherry pick the best cruise that meets our criteria. HAL is not making the shortlist as often as it once was. Not an issue for us since there are other good lines and many very good ships to select from.

Edited December 29, 2016 by iancal

[innlady1]

We enjoy westbound transatlantic cruises and had to cancel our scheduled Eurodam cruise this October.

 

Trying to find one for 2017 was an eye opener. HAL has severely reduced the number of port stops...in half!

 

Much to my dismay, I booked Royal Princess because it has a decent itinerary...and will forego the four star perks that we enjoy.