nybumpkin Posted June 19, 2017 #76 Share Posted June 19, 2017 The way it works is that the commanding officer is presumed responsible for whatever goes wrong on his ship - completely unlike the presumption of innocence the rest of us enjoy. As my BIL (retired after 20) put it, "One 'Oh S---' makes up for a dozen 'Atta Boys'". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted June 19, 2017 #77 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Yep, everyone remembers the mistakes, not so much the smooth sailings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bury me at sea Posted June 19, 2017 #78 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Yep, everyone remembers the mistakes, not so much the smooth sailings. When loss of life results it's difficult to consider it a mistake. Disaster seems more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted June 19, 2017 #79 Share Posted June 19, 2017 When loss of life results it's difficult to consider it a mistake. Disaster seems more appropriate. True, definitely a disaster for the people and their families. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florida Jim Posted June 19, 2017 #80 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) YouTube of MarineTraffic.com track playback is at: A better track at: Edited June 19, 2017 by Florida Jim remove youtube tags, and add second video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted June 19, 2017 #81 Share Posted June 19, 2017 How bizarre, seems like they were hunting for something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkacruiser Posted June 19, 2017 #82 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) Yes, the CO must take responsibility for this accident. As a landlubber who loves the seas and admires ALL of those who choose to work upon the ships for the benefit of all of us, I accept the Commander's situation. It will take an Inquiry to answer many questions: 1. Was the Captain's Night Directives flawed? 2. Was the training of the Bridge team inadequate? 3. What was the role of the Executive Officer in overseeing this Bridge Team that night? Was he derelict in his duties to insure that the Fitzgerald was in capable hands? 4. A pure layman's view: Yes, the Commander is responsible. Should this put his Naval career at an end? Should he have another command? The Master of the M. S. Stockholm was awarded the position as Master of the M. S. Gripsholm for a period of time after the collision and sinking of the Andrea Doria. 5. Another pure layman's opinion: Whomever(s) were a part of the Bridge Team that night are the responsible parties for this accident. Why would any OOD allow ANY vessel, for any unapproved reason, allow his/her ship to become so close to another vessel? From what I have learned from Behind the Scenes Tours, including Bridge visits, an OOW would NEVER permit such to take place. While the Captain may be left "hanging out to dry" when all is said and done, those on the Bridge that night should also be up-dating their resumes ASAP. This is just my uneducated as to marine affairs opinion, but a very concerned American citizen. I would appreciate learning others informed comments concerning my comments. Edited June 20, 2017 by rkacruiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florida Jim Posted June 20, 2017 #83 Share Posted June 20, 2017 How bizarre, seems like they were hunting for something. I wish one of the major news organizations would purchase the data from MarineTraffic and plot it up with local time stamps. I attempted to read the time stamp from the video, and came up with this: https://wordpress25013.wordpress.com/2017/06/18/rank-speculation-on-uss-fitzgerald-acx-crystal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted June 20, 2017 #84 Share Posted June 20, 2017 ... While the Captain may be left "hanging out to dry" when all is said and done, those on the Bridge that night should also be up-dating their resumes ASAP. This is just my uneducated as to marine affairs opinion, but a very concerned American citizen. I would appreciate learning others informed comments concerning my comments. Simply put (speaking from having stood many watches as OOD underway), I have a hard time understanding how the more maneuverable, better manned, higher speed Fitzgerald allowed such a close approach to develop in the first place. Yes, the OOD seems to have demonstrated poor judgement, and may need to consider "updating ... resume". But it was the CO who left his night orders and decided that the OOD was competent to follow them. That is the way it works. Of course, until inquiries are completed, it is impossible to assign responsibility - and, personally, I would like to see a finding that the Fitzgerald was in no way at fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare broberts Posted June 20, 2017 #85 Share Posted June 20, 2017 I am correct in assuming that the Japanese Coast Guard will be investigating? Will the US Navy investigation share data with the civilian investigation? Is there a normal / average length of time for these sorts of investigations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spookwife Posted June 20, 2017 #86 Share Posted June 20, 2017 As my BIL (retired after 20) put it, "One 'Oh S---' makes up for a dozen 'Atta Boys'". Pretty sure that's a required Sailorism from LPO on up.... Sent from my iPad using Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnocket Posted June 20, 2017 Author #87 Share Posted June 20, 2017 I wish one of the major news organizations would purchase the data from MarineTraffic and plot it up with local time stamps. I attempted to read the time stamp from the video, and came up with this: https://wordpress25013.wordpress.com/2017/06/18/rank-speculation-on-uss-fitzgerald-acx-crystal It's still not clear where along the recorded track the collision took place. I just read a news article that claims that according to Coast Guard interviews with the ACX Crystal's crew, the collision took place right where the ship made the initial 90 degree turn to starboard. The ACX then continued on an Easterly heading until making a u-turn to return to the scene of the collision. Here's the relevant quote..... On Saturday, both the US Navy and the Japanese Coast Guard said the accident occurred at 2.20am, leading to some experts theorizing that the series of unusual turns performed by the Crystal before that time may have caused the accident. However, after interviewing the crews, the Coast Guard say the accident occurred at 1.30am and that the unusual maneuvers were the result of the Crystal returning to the scene to confirm a collision - and that is why it reported the accident at 2.20am. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4617742/Shambolic-start-probe-USS-Fitzgerald-collision.html#ixzz4kVpM3Ft2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted June 20, 2017 #88 Share Posted June 20, 2017 It seems to get more complicated as time goes by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted June 20, 2017 #89 Share Posted June 20, 2017 While I agree with much of what the Jane's "expert" states in the Daily Mail article, I will disagree with him on his contention that a "computer was driving the ship", and the crew was asleep. Today's ships control the propulsion engine from the bridge, and when in bridge control, the engine will at all times attempt to meet the commands from the bridge. So, if the telegraph is in "full ahead" position, even after striking something, which will cause the ship to slow or stop, as soon as the obstruction is cleared, the ship will accelerate back to full speed. It is extremely common for ships to operate 90% of the time on autopilot, and after the collision, the autopilot, if still engaged, would bring the ship back to its set heading. As I've stated before, since 2012, all ships over 3000 tons must be equipped with a BNWAS system that alarms if the bridge watch is incapacitated (not moving) or has left the bridge for too long. This will even alarm if the bridge watch is active in navigating the vessel, but is spending too much time outside on the bridge wings, since these areas are not covered by motion sensors. BNWAS has three operating modes: Automatic, which engages whenever the autopilot is engaged; Manual on, which is on all the time, even when the autopilot is off, and many ships operate in this mode all the time based on their ISM systems; and Manual off, which is turned off completely. While BNWAS is able to be turned off (in port there is no one on the bridge, so the alarm would be going off all the time), the status of the BNWAS system is linked to the VDR (Voyage Data Recorder, or the "black box"). Therefore, any ship operating at sea with the BNWAS turned off, which would have to be the case for the "crew to be sleeping and a computer driving the ship", would be found to be in violation of the flag state laws, the class regulations, and hence would be operating without insurance and would be found liable for any damages that occurred. I know of no ship, country, or class society that allows for unattended bridge operations. They are trying to go that way, but even then the requirement would be for an "operator" on shore to be monitoring the vessel at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothFlying Posted June 20, 2017 #90 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Simply put (speaking from having stood many watches as OOD underway), I have a hard time understanding how the more maneuverable, better manned, higher speed Fitzgerald allowed such a close approach to develop in the first place. Yes, the OOD seems to have demonstrated poor judgement, and may need to consider "updating ... resume". But it was the CO who left his night orders and decided that the OOD was competent to follow them. That is the way it works. Of course, until inquiries are completed, it is impossible to assign responsibility - and, personally, I would like to see a finding that the Fitzgerald was in no way at fault. Hoo Boy !!! Would love to be in the room of this Article 39A Board of Inquiry and hear the OOD's response about HOW and WHY a 300 TON container ship was able too even APPROACH, much less, STRIKE a U.S.. Naval vessel without being detected ?? Hmmm..? IF, he/she is found guilty one wonders,would said OOD be allowed to work off said damages fine during his sentence OR would he be kept in service and the damages fine be 'payroll deductable'? Also, I'm sure the Captain (who was probably asleep in his sea quarters) will receive some of written reprimand. Where I retired from, we called it,' Taken to the woodshed and having your britches pulled down and getting pencil whipped'. I also agree with NavyB and hopefully the evidence will prove the entire bridge staff was NOT at fault. Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurseDave Posted June 20, 2017 #91 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Sure love when chengkp75 posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nybumpkin Posted June 20, 2017 #92 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Of course, until inquiries are completed, it is impossible to assign responsibility - and, personally, I would like to see a finding that the Fitzgerald was in no way at fault. Me too - particularly since I have a feeling that my son may know the OOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA_CA_GAL Posted June 21, 2017 #93 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Maybe the Russians were responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted June 21, 2017 #94 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Wouldn't surprise me at all. There is a conspiracy here and we will keep looking until we find one. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tatt2ed Posted June 22, 2017 #95 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Makes me kinda unsettled that this kind of thing can actually happen. Neither ships radar saw the other? Unlikely. The only plausible explanation is that the bridge crew on both ships weren't paying attention for an extended period of time. Don't modern ships have collision avoidance alarms? If this could happen to a USN Destroyer, it's not out of the question that it could happen to a cruise ship. Makes one wonder. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-naval-vessel-collides-merchant-ship-southwest-japan-n773521 Already has happened, took the whole front off the cruise ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted June 22, 2017 #96 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Wouldn't surprise me at all. There is a conspiracy here and we will keep looking until we find one. :p I hope that happy face is saying "I'm kidding". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted June 22, 2017 #97 Share Posted June 22, 2017 I hope that happy face is saying "I'm kidding". Yeah, I am, but for some I fear they may be serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOldBear Posted June 22, 2017 #98 Share Posted June 22, 2017 New article posted at USNI Proceedings - When a Big Ocean gets Small Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bury me at sea Posted June 22, 2017 #99 Share Posted June 22, 2017 That article gave me chills. I don't think cruise ships traverse the type of channel described. I've watched from the aft as our ship backed into Mahogany Bay and marveled at the control it took and the skill that must be involved, all in broad daylight, barely moving. Going back to the first post expressing incredulity that this could happen, I initially shared that feeling. This article left me amazed it doesn't happen more often. Again, my condolences to the families and shipmates of the lost crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted June 22, 2017 #100 Share Posted June 22, 2017 New article posted at USNI Proceedings - When a Big Ocean gets Small If you want to understand the scene, you should read this article - a clear picture of how the CO's authority (but never his responsibility) is delegated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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