How is it Possible That a Container Ship Collided with a USN Destroyer Near Japan?

[nybumpkin]

Might I recommend to the CNO that he clear his calendar for the hearings he will be attending of the Senate and House Armed Forces Committees?

 

Truly regret the loss of the lives of those sailors who chose to serve our Nation! They are American heroes in my mind. God bless them!

ADM Richardson (CNO) announced two actions: (1) a fleet-wide "operational pause" for each ship to review fundamentals and (2) a months-long review specific to the Pacific fleet.

 

Not a good situation, to have two ships from DESRON 15 out of operation. Hopefully this review and the ship-specific investigations provide some answers.

[klfrodo]

Maybe we need to remove the Captains of our war ships and replace them with merchants. :evilsmile:

[chengkp75]

Maybe we need to remove the Captains of our war ships and replace them with merchants. :evilsmile:

 

I didn't say that, and some merchant ship Captains I've worked with I wouldn't trust to drive a tricycle, let alone do a good job training the officers.

[navybankerteacher]

What seems interesting is that these frequent incidents all seem to involve ships steaming independently. In my day, there was a lot more formation steaming - which naturally required a somewhat higher level of continuous expertise/attention. When two or three destroyers are conducting ASW exercises there is a lot of close in maneuvering, or in simple formation steaming when it was imperative to maintain precise range and bearing to the guide ship - there was a kind of two level qualification for OOD underway. CO's would qualify a junior officer initially only for independent steaming - with appropriately more controlling night and standing orders : say 10 mile CPA to notify captain rather than 5 mile,

 

If there is significantly less formation steaming perhaps there is some difference in training/qualification. Whatever-- it used to be that collisions at sea were a lot rarer --- when the Navy sailed many more ships than today.

[4774Papa]

One article now opines that hacking may be the problem. If the cause is not an outside source, the Navy need to reconsider its selection of Captains.

[chengkp75]

One article now opines that hacking may be the problem. If the cause is not an outside source, the Navy need to reconsider its selection of Captains.

 

Even if the GPS systems were hacked, I can't believe that the ships did not have good old fashioned radar going (regardless of how much other stuff is added to the radar to provide a chart representation, etc), the radar shows contacts in their relative position to the ship. If a ship gets too close, actions need to be taken. This is regardless of where the bridge team believe they are in the world, based on their GPS. And if the radar goes south on you, then you place "Mark 1 eyeball" on duty to watch for hazards.

[klfrodo]

I didn't say that, and some merchant ship Captains I've worked with I wouldn't trust to drive a tricycle, let alone do a good job training the officers.

 

:) I know you didn't say it Chengkp75. I was just stirring the pot.

 

I respect your knowledge and you willingness to share what you know and accept what you don't know.

Unlike some others.

[broberts]

One article now opines that hacking may be the problem. If the cause is not an outside source, the Navy need to reconsider its selection of Captains.

 

I don't see how a hack could cause the incident. I suspect hacking warship systems would be near the impossible end of the difficulty scale. Add to that a likelihood approaching zero of any ship handling system being on an externally accessible network. Finally, GPS relies on satellite broadcasts and positioning calculations are completely independent of other input.

 

Not sure why captains should bear the brunt. After all, admirals hire them. Surely the admirals bear a responsibility for hiring captains, as much as captains are responsible for their subordinates.

[chengkp75]

I don't see how a hack could cause the incident. I suspect hacking warship systems would be near the impossible end of the difficulty scale. Add to that a likelihood approaching zero of any ship handling system being on an externally accessible network. Finally, GPS relies on satellite broadcasts and positioning calculations are completely independent of other input.

 

Not sure why captains should bear the brunt. After all, admirals hire them. Surely the admirals bear a responsibility for hiring captains, as much as captains are responsible for their subordinates.

 

I have seen where commercial GPS has been "interfered with", most recently when we were approaching the Russian port of Novorossiysk, on the Black Sea. A few miles out from the port, the GPS system stopped receiving data, and just as suddenly, when the pilot boat approached it started acting normally again. Coincidence? As you say, the GPS unit on the ship does the positioning calculations based on altitude angle and directional angle to the satellites, but not sure if the signals from the satellites could be spoofed, much like stealth technology that only bends radar waves.

 

And you can be sure that the Admirals commanding the various Pacific Fleet commands that are over these ships will not have an unblemished record. Everything that happens under their command is entered in their service record. But, the Captain is the "on-scene" command presence, and has the authority to make life and death decisions, and with this authority comes responsibility, so if there is a lack of confidence in the Captain's "ability to command" as was stated in one of the articles, then he has to go.

[helen haywood]

This today:

 

Head of Navy's 7th Fleet to be relieved of duty after second deadly mishap in Pacific

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/22/head-navys-7th-fleet-to-be-relieved-duty-after-second-deadly-mishap-in-pacific.html

 

 

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[broberts]

I have seen where commercial GPS has been "interfered with", most recently when we were approaching the Russian port of Novorossiysk, on the Black Sea. A few miles out from the port, the GPS system stopped receiving data, and just as suddenly, when the pilot boat approached it started acting normally again. Coincidence? As you say, the GPS unit on the ship does the positioning calculations based on altitude angle and directional angle to the satellites, but not sure if the signals from the satellites could be spoofed, much like stealth technology that only bends radar waves....

 

I suspect earth based spoofing would be difficult given the difference in distance between transmitters and receiver. But signal interference is certainly possible from both atmospheric conditions and human sources.

[Underwatr]

GPS won't help you avoid a collision with other shipping.

[bury me at sea]

This today:

 

Head of Navy's 7th Fleet to be relieved of duty after second deadly mishap in Pacific

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/22/head-navys-7th-fleet-to-be-relieved-duty-after-second-deadly-mishap-in-pacific.html

 

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I read that earlier this morning. Going right to the top seems like the only reasonable course of action since two of the four incidents involved loss of life.

[mela921]

Prayers to all involved.

[navybankerteacher]

All four incidents are quite different.

 

I've seen reports that the McCain had immediately before or during the incident suffered steering problems.

 

Given the scope and frequency of operations I doubt 4 accidents is statistically meaningful. Nonetheless, there is cause for serious concern whenever lives are imperiled or lost.

 

Four accidents -each of which removes from service, for any length of time, two of a limited number of warships surely IS statistically meaningful.

 

 

This year, two of U S Navy's total of 22 cruisers - the Antietam and the LakeChamplain (that is 10%) - are removed from service. Then two of the 68 destroyers are seriously damaged.

 

 

The real statistical impact is far greater than the numbers indicate - since periodic refit, training, and major overhaul

means that little more than one third of the total force is actually deployed at any one time. And the Pacific is not the only area where the U S Navy shows a presence.

[broberts]

Four accidents -each of which removes from service, for any length of time, two of a limited number of warships surely IS statistically meaningful.

 

 

This year, two of U S Navy's total of 22 cruisers - the Antietam and the LakeChamplain (that is 10%) - are removed from service. Then two of the 68 destroyers are seriously damaged.

 

 

The real statistical impact is far greater than the numbers indicate - since periodic refit, training, and major overhaul

means that little more than one third of the total force is actually deployed at any one time. And the Pacific is not the only area where the U S Navy shows a presence.

 

I was not thinking so much about the impact on operations as the rarity of such events. It just seems to me that while the incidents are very serious, based on frequency they are far from suggesting an endemic problem.

[navybankerteacher]

I was not thinking so much about the impact on operations as the rarity of such events. It just seems to me that while the incidents are very serious, based on frequency they are far from suggesting an endemic problem.

 

The point is: these collisions are no longer a rarity - and they involve a much higher percentage of the vessels in a much smaller fleet.

[nybumpkin]

From this morning's New York Times. A good read about commercial navigtion and Navy ships in congested areas: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/world/asia/navy-collision-uss-mccain-oil-tanker.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

[lucyintheskywithdiamonds]

Makes me kinda unsettled that this kind of thing can actually happen. Neither ships radar saw the other? Unlikely. The only plausible explanation is that the bridge crew on both ships weren't paying attention for an extended period of time. Don't modern ships have collision avoidance alarms?

 

If this could happen to a USN Destroyer, it's not out of the question that it could happen to a cruise ship. Makes one wonder.

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-naval-vessel-collides-merchant-ship-southwest-japan-n773521

This is all political theatre and we're not in the script. this is the military industrial complex playing head games. the cruise ships are safe!

[navybankerteacher]

I don't even know what you're talking about here. Playing head games? Sure, and let's kill off a few sailors while we're flexing our industrial muscles.

 

Yeesh.

 

Ah, yes -once more that villainous "military industrial complex playing head games"-- sounds like she has been sampling a touch of her namesake: LSD.

[mnocket]

Navy destroyer collides with building in downtown Houston

 

https://www.duffelblog.com/2017/08/navy-destroyer-collides-with-building-in-downtown-houston/

 

(Is it too soon?)

[biker@sea]

WASHINGTON (AP) — Five officers involved in two Navy ship collisions last year that killed a total of 17 sailors are being charged with negligent homicide, the Navy said Tuesday.

 

A Navy spokesman, Capt. Greg Hicks, said the charges, which also include dereliction of duty and endangering a ship, will be presented to what the military calls an Article 32 hearing to determine whether the accused are taken to trial in a court-martial.

 

 

The disciplinary actions were decided by Adm. Frank Caldwell and are the latest in a series of moves the Navy has made in the aftermath of the deadly collisions, which investigators concluded were avoidable. It fired several top leaders, including the commander of the 7th Fleet, Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin, and several other senior commanders in the Pacific.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/navy-filing-homicide-charges-against-2-ship-commanders-233934463--politics.html?.tsrc=bell-brknews

[broberts]

Understandable but very sad.

[Gwendy]

Not to mention the oil tanker and container ships that collided off Shanghai earlier this month with significant loss of lives.

 

 

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[CPT Trips]

Ah, yes -once more that villainous "military industrial complex playing head games"-- sounds like she has been sampling a touch of her namesake: LSD.

 

Don't say we weren't warned by a General/President.