Retired/Transferred Ships

[bUU]

My spouse asked a question that I haven't seen discussed recently. I did find a thread from 2006, but even that was specific to one cruise line, and the question is really more general than that, pertaining to the US-based, mass-market cruise lines (Carnival, Norwegian, Royal Caribbean, Holland America, Celebrity, Princess, Disney, MSC).

 

According to Wikipedia (so probably not completely accurate): Carnival hasn't let go of a ship since 2009. Princess transferred one ship to other subsidiaries in each of the last two years. Holland America transferred two in 2015, but none since. Royal Caribbean has sold one ship in each of the past two years. Celebrity transferred one ship in 2015 and nothing since. NCL hasn't gotten rid of a ship since 2009.

 

How much of that is accurate?

[CruiserBruce]

HAL may have started the process in 2015, completed the transfer in 2016. That would be about correct.

[paul929207]

About 2 years ago, Princess sold the Ocean Princess to Oceana.

[chengkp75]

Based on the cyclical nature of the shipping industry as a whole, and cruise lines as well, there was a large expansion of the fleet since 2000, so the ships are generally less than 15 years old. 15-20 is the time frame when lines tend to transfer/sell ships as the maintenance costs start to increase dramatically. Since the market has expanded in the same time frame, there has not been any pressure to decrease capacity, and prices have remained where the older ships in the fleets have remained profitable. As some of the newer tonnage comes online, there may be another spate of sales/transfers to remove older tonnage, starting another cycle.

[Keith1010]

That is believable.

 

I do find Wiki to be pretty accurate on this as a year ago I did a lot of research on most of the cruise lines and the ships in their fleets.

 

Keith

[Flatbush Flyer]

My spouse asked a question that I haven't seen discussed recently. I did find a thread from 2006, but even that was specific to one cruise line, and the question is really more general than that, pertaining to the US-based, mass-market cruise lines (Carnival, Norwegian, Royal Caribbean, Holland America, Celebrity, Princess, Disney, MSC).

 

 

 

According to Wikipedia (so probably not completely accurate): Carnival hasn't let go of a ship since 2009. Princess transferred one ship to other subsidiaries in each of the last two years. Holland America transferred two in 2015, but none since. Royal Caribbean has sold one ship in each of the past two years. Celebrity transferred one ship in 2015 and nothing since. NCL hasn't gotten rid of a ship since 2009.

 

 

 

How much of that is accurate?

 

 

 

Ocean Princess was sold to Oceania where it went through a $40 million refurbishment to bring it up to O's significantly higher standards. It is now the Sirena (adding a fourth R ship to their line, which also has the two larger O ships, Marina and Riviera).

 

 

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[zqvol]

My spouse asked a question that I haven't seen discussed recently. I did find a thread from 2006, but even that was specific to one cruise line, and the question is really more general than that, pertaining to the US-based, mass-market cruise lines (Carnival, Norwegian, Royal Caribbean, Holland America, Celebrity, Princess, Disney, MSC).

 

According to Wikipedia (so probably not completely accurate): Carnival hasn't let go of a ship since 2009. Princess transferred one ship to other subsidiaries in each of the last two years. Holland America transferred two in 2015, but none since. Royal Caribbean has sold one ship in each of the past two years. Celebrity transferred one ship in 2015 and nothing since. NCL hasn't gotten rid of a ship since 2009.

 

How much of that is accurate?

 

In spite of what a number of academicians would have you believe most Wikipedia articles are very accurate, especially for something like your question which can easily be answered from facts that are in the public domain.

 

What you have posted sounds about right. The mass market lines have been growing their fleets, and none of their ships are very old, so it makes perfect sense that they haven't disposed of many.

[Gwendy]

Dawn Princess became Pacific Explorer with P&O Australia, Pacific Pearl from P&O Australia has become CMV Columbus. P&O Australia now has Aria and Eden ex HAL.

 

 

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[davecttr]

RCI Spendour of the Seas and Legend of the Seas after refurbishments are now operating as Marella Discovery 1 and 2 for the UK/Irish market. Mostly fly cruises. The 'used ship' business model seems to work for them.

[navybankerteacher]

Based on the cyclical nature of the shipping industry as a whole, and cruise lines as well, there was a large expansion of the fleet since 2000, so the ships are generally less than 15 years old. 15-20 is the time frame when lines tend to transfer/sell ships as the maintenance costs start to increase dramatically. Since the market has expanded in the same time frame, there has not been any pressure to decrease capacity, and prices have remained where the older ships in the fleets have remained profitable. As some of the newer tonnage comes online, there may be another spate of sales/transfers to remove older tonnage, starting another cycle.

 

This seems to be the case - since the market has been continually expanding since about 2007 or 2008, the lines seem able to operate older and (relatively) smaller shops profitably. Of course, as more ships start seriously aging there likely will be a surge in sales which could force prices down sharply - there being a very small demand for 25+ year old vessels.

[chengkp75]

The cycles for demand and capacity in shipping tend to not coincide, due to the long lead time to build a ship. This exacerbates the demand swings as overcapacity follows under capacity. At the 15 year old mark, the maintenance cost/year curve starts it's parabolic rise, and by 25 years, it is quite high, and this is just the "back of house" or technical maintenance, not counting any necessary updating or upgrading of amenitites.

[exelsor]

Quite interesting info, i love a new ship, was on harmony of the seas and splendor of the seas in 2016. I really enjoyed both. Loved all the things harmorny had to offer but i also liked the small(ish) ship feel of splendor and always being able to see the sea.

 

 

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[fishywood]

So with the maintenance costs still presumably spiraling upward as the ship continues to age, what exactly is accomplished by transferring the ship from one arm to another of the same parent corporation: Princess and HAL to P&O Australia, RCI and X to Pullmantur? Certainly the bean counters have to be able to justify the moves on paper. I gather the fares they are able to charge in those ship's new markets have to be high enough to absorb the increased fixed costs associated with the age of the ship where if left alongside new builds in their old livery the ship's gross revenues (before expenses) would be projected to only decrease over time.

[gerelmx]

RCI Spendour of the Seas and Legend of the Seas after refurbishments are now operating as Marella Discovery 1 and 2 for the UK/Irish market. Mostly fly cruises. The 'used ship' business model seems to work for them.

 

Splendour OTS was my favorite

[InitialD]

That's correct for Carnival. The last ship they retired was the Holiday in 2009, the last of the Holiday-class cruise ships. It had been operating out of Mobile and was the smallest of their ships. You can read about it's history here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiday-class_cruise_ship

 

Now the smallest and oldest ships in the Carnival fleet are the Fantasy class, which include Carnival Fantasy, Carnival Paradise, Carnival Elation, Carnival Sensation, Carnival Inspiration, Etc (8 total). The oldest ship now is the Carnival Fantasy which was built in 1990. So far, no Fantasy class ships have been retired or sold by Carnival despite rumors of Fantasy being considered for sale a couple of years ago..

[exelsor]

Going back on old splendor - now marella discovery in feb so will be nice to see how she is looking now tui have her.

 

 

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[chengkp75]

So with the maintenance costs still presumably spiraling upward as the ship continues to age, what exactly is accomplished by transferring the ship from one arm to another of the same parent corporation: Princess and HAL to P&O Australia, RCI and X to Pullmantur? Certainly the bean counters have to be able to justify the moves on paper. I gather the fares they are able to charge in those ship's new markets have to be high enough to absorb the increased fixed costs associated with the age of the ship where if left alongside new builds in their old livery the ship's gross revenues (before expenses) would be projected to only decrease over time.

 

The line the ship is transferred to typically is in a lower tier of P&I insurance (meaning the premiums are lower and the coverage is lower), the class society would probably be a "lower tier" (meaning there would be less stringent construction and maintenance criteria and less inspections), and the line as a whole tends to operate on a different profit margin (really close to the bone). Their demographics are different, and their revenue stream is different. The amenities would also be different.