Dog on ship, continued

[trout96]

Why are RCCL ships allowing this anyway?...They are foreign flagged and as such have no obligation to comply with ADA or other American regulations.

 

I am very P.Oed at the very idea of passengers abusing this. I wish the Wounded Vets and other groups would speak out against this as many vets have LEGITIMATE need for emotional support animals ...and this type abuse might cause them to be lumped in with the knuckleheads.

 

Doug

PTSD Veterans have service Animals. Which means they are trained professionally. I know my cousin has one and it has been a life changer for him. Yes they give emotional support but for diagnosed disorder.

[A&L_Ont]

PTSD Veterans have service Animals. Which means they are trained professionally. I know my cousin has one and it has been a life changer for him. Yes they give emotional support but for diagnosed disorder.

 

Itis nice to read that your cousin’s PTSD service animal is giving him the support that he needs. I personally would rather have a hundred of these dogs on my sailing VS one in a Captain's outfit.

[suzyluvs2cruise]

Itis nice to read that your cousin’s PTSD service animal is giving him the support that he needs. I personally would rather have a hundred of these dogs on my sailing VS one in a Captain's outfit.

 

Me too! :)

[TacMedic]

Had a run in with a questionable "support" dog in a Harris Teeter three days ago. Man puts his invaluable dog (with the online certification collar) in the fold out area of a cart where parents seat their children. I'd had enough. I confronted him and was quite loud hoping to get the attention of all around (I did). I asked what he thought he was doing placing the dog's bare anus and genitals in a shopping cart. A young assistant manager walked up at this time. The dog owner responded that it was none of my business and I couldn't ask. I told him it was definitely my business since I might be using that cart another day and that I didn't want to to place my groceries or granddaughter in a space where the dog's bare bottom had been. I was expecting the "dog's are cleaner than people" bull defense, but it didn't come. I raised my voice even more to remind him that I could ask him anything I want, that I was not restricted by ADA. The assistant manager was in an uncomfortable position. I reminded him that this wasn't a challenge of ADA rights since the dog wasn't restricted from coming into the store. I confronted the ADA "expert" clarifying that ADA gets his darling dog in the door; it isn't a free pass into a shopping cart.

He didn't have an answer for that. He quietly said to the manager that he would carry the dog "to get him off the hook." That set me off again. I bellowed that the dog belonged on a leash, not in a cart, and that this was not a one time challenge. I made it clear that any time I would see him in the store with a dog in a cart, I would follow right behind him and would very loudly and continuously protest.

 

The phonies use ADA as weapon to scare proprietors away from challenges. They make a mockery of those with legitimate service animal needs. ADA doesn't apply to passengers adversely affected by the erstwhile service dogs. Time for us to strike back. A dog relieves itself inappropriately on a ship, raise a very loud protest. Do everything you can to focus attention on the defecator. Someone puts little Bootsie on her lap at the dinner table, start yelling, yes yelling, for the maitre d. I think you will find that this will empower others who have had enough. It's time for RCCL and other proprietors to know that pacifying the one is not worth the uproar of the majority.

 

 

who are you to decide if it is legitimate or not? Raving like a lunatic does nothing but invite mob mentality. look, if the guy saw his dog poop and walked away, a polite tone and tap on the shoulder is all that is required, gibbering like an ape is unbecoming. You don't confront people with handicap stickers, with no immediately obvious handicap, do you? didn't think so.

[grest]

who are you to decide if it is legitimate or not? Raving like a lunatic does nothing but invite mob mentality. look, if the guy saw his dog poop and walked away, a polite tone and tap on the shoulder is all that is required, gibbering like an ape is unbecoming. You don't confront people with handicap stickers, with no immediately obvious handicap, do you? didn't think so.

 

This is clearly a sensitive issue. And just as clearly, some people absolutely do much better with service animals. The unfortunate reality is that the ADA rules are being abused. Just as you are annoyed by those who seem insensitive to you or to disabled people, some are annoyed by the blatant disregard by others of fellow passengers...pooping dogs minus clean-up is a concern, for real.

[TacMedic]

This is clearly a sensitive issue. And just as clearly, some people absolutely do much better with service animals. The unfortunate reality is that the ADA rules are being abused. Just as you are annoyed by those who seem insensitive to you or to disabled people, some are annoyed by the blatant disregard by others of fellow passengers...pooping dogs minus clean-up is a concern, for real.

And I have no issue with a polite resolution to those that are discourteous. But to pass judgement on someone, then aggressively confront them is obnoxious.

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[A&L_Ont]

And I have no issue with a polite resolution to those that are discourteous. But to pass judgement on someone, then aggressively confront them is obnoxious.

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

I agree with you regarding the aggressive confrontation. It can be a dangerous path.

 

However, a dogs butt in the grocery cart, lower level or upper, just seems all wrong to me. In my mind it is no different than a diapered baby or child sitting on the food service counter, at a place such as McDonalds. Worse yet, changing the diaper on an eating table. It just comes down to lack of consideration. Their house, go for it. Public place, no thanks.

[mondas42]

I’m sorry but I have to ask, what the flaming hell is an ‘emotional support animal’?? Never had ‘em twenty years ago! Guide dogs and hearing dogs are fantastic and incredibly well trained and would never poop on the floor of an inside area. This sounds like a silly excuse to bring a pet with you rather than pay for kennelling. Sorry I’m from Yorkshire, England....we tend to speak our minds.

[TacMedic]

I’m sorry but I have to ask, what the flaming hell is an ‘emotional support animal’?? Never had ‘em twenty years ago! Guide dogs and hearing dogs are fantastic and incredibly well trained and would never poop on the floor of an inside area. This sounds like a silly excuse to bring a pet with you rather than pay for kennelling. Sorry I’m from Yorkshire, England....we tend to speak our minds.

From the US office if Veteran Affairs :

An emotional support animal may be able to help alleviate some of the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. Although an ESA can be of any species, those with PTSD oftentimes enlist the help of a canine companion.

 

Dogs are intuitive and can sense when their owner is becoming stressed or overwhelmed. Dogs are also;

 

Good companions and will not judge or criticize the person with PTSD

 

Fun and will help relieve stress and bring out those “feel-good” endorphins

 

Help engage the person in the “love” emotion making them feel less detached

 

Provide a need to get out of the house to spend time outdoors and meet new people

 

 

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[chengkp75]

From the US office if Veteran Affairs :

An emotional support animal may be able to help alleviate some of the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. Although an ESA can be of any species, those with PTSD oftentimes enlist the help of a canine companion.

 

Dogs are intuitive and can sense when their owner is becoming stressed or overwhelmed. Dogs are also;

 

Good companions and will not judge or criticize the person with PTSD

 

Fun and will help relieve stress and bring out those “feel-good” endorphins

 

Help engage the person in the “love” emotion making them feel less detached

 

Provide a need to get out of the house to spend time outdoors and meet new people

 

 

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

And a ESA dog that provides the above listed comforts to the vet are not considered service animals, and therefore are not covered under the ADA, and are only guaranteed access to housing and airlines, not all public spaces. PTSD dogs that perform a specific task for their owner that may relieve the PTSD (such as "clearing a room", or nudging the owner away from crowds) is considered a service animal, and is guaranteed the access to public spaces under the ADA. The ADA specifically states that ESA's or dogs whose mere presence calms the owner are not service animals under the ADA.

[TacMedic]

And a ESA dog that provides the above listed comforts to the vet are not considered service animals, and therefore are not covered under the ADA, and are only guaranteed access to housing and airlines, not all public spaces. PTSD dogs that perform a specific task for their owner that may relieve the PTSD (such as "clearing a room", or nudging the owner away from crowds) is considered a service animal, and is guaranteed the access to public spaces under the ADA. The ADA specifically states that ESA's or dogs whose mere presence calms the owner are not service animals under the ADA.

I'd say calming a vet down is a service as defined by the ADA but, I'm not a lawyer. However, the endorphin boost from a ESA dogs has been shown in some cases to be more effective than SSRIs. Especially in regards to limiting self harm and such, but we digress, my main point is being respectful and courteous to fellow travelers, even those that are being discourteous.

 

Don't contribute to malice, what can easily be explained by ignorance.

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[John Reid]

who are you to decide if it is legitimate or not? Raving like a lunatic does nothing but invite mob mentality. look, if the guy saw his dog poop and walked away, a polite tone and tap on the shoulder is all that is required, gibbering like an ape is unbecoming. You don't confront people with handicap stickers, with no immediately obvious handicap, do you? didn't think so.

 

Did you read my post with any care? I didn't challenge his dog being in the store; I challenged its being in a grocery cart. Step down from your pretentious throne, Solomon. A dog's bare anus in a grocery cart is what's unbecoming.

[TacMedic]

Did you read my post with any care? I didn't challenge his dog being in the store; I challenged its being in a grocery cart. Step down from your pretentious throne, Solomon. A dog's bare anus in a grocery cart is what's unbecoming.

Lol, you are calling me pretentious when you are calling on people to bark out people who bring their service animal to the dinner.

 

Ok, dude. You, do you.

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[A&L_Ont]

I’m sorry but I have to ask, what the flaming hell is an ‘emotional support animal’?? Never had ‘em twenty years ago! Guide dogs and hearing dogs are fantastic and incredibly well trained and would never poop on the floor of an inside area. This sounds like a silly excuse to bring a pet with you rather than pay for kennelling. Sorry I’m from Yorkshire, England....we tend to speak our minds.

 

I just did a google search and the top results were sites that tell you how to register your animal as an ESA and take it anywhere. I love the three dogs and cats that I had over the years but I would never drag them on my holiday, and I sure as heck would not dress them or push them in a stroller. Maybe people who do that have a physiological disorder or an attention seeking disorder. ;)

Chief said it best. There is a difference between ESA animals and ADA animals. ADA allows people with disabilities to bring their service animals in public places. However, the ADA only extends these protections to dogs that have been "individually trained" to "perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability," which is the definition of service animals. Since emotional support animals (ESA) are typically not trained for an individual's specific disability and since emotional support animals might not be dogs, they do not receive the protections of the ADA. A public place can therefore deny an emotional support animal admission. Being from Canada I might have missed something but that is my understanding of the system.

 

Business, housing complexes etc by law must follow the ADA act. If they don't they can/will suffer the consequences, in the forms of fines etc. However, the average business owner doesn't know the differences between the two and would rather welcome all pets than face the consequences. This is where people have taken advantage of the ESA system and over time it has gotten worse over the last few years.

One of the ESA web-sites promoted flying with your pet on your lap and living in a pet free housing with you "support animal". Below is a quote right from a web-site .

 

"By receiving a prescription from one of our therapists for an Emotional Support Animal (ESA) you’ll never have to compromise where you live or where you travel again. Signing up for an ESA assessment with one of our therapists is quick, easy, and applies to animals of all shapes and sizes. Get an official prescription letter from a certified therapist, and be on your way to living stress and worry free with your Emotional Support Animal".

I'm not sure a how therapist can give a prescription letter over the internet, at most possible by phone conversation but it can be done.;)The further I read into the website, it looks like a money making endeavour for those who will take Fifi anywhere. Need a ESA letter, they will provide one for you for a fee etc. If people are buying outfits for their dogs, what is a fee more dollars so they can take them anywhere.

 

Somewhere along the way the dog went from being a pet to a family member and this industry is taking advantage of their market place. Just spend the bucks and take for dog, cat, or peacock anywhere. Well until a crackdown happens, and it appears as though the airlines are doing it now.

 

 

 

This is an example of one of the ESA website providers.

 

ESA Registration Of America - Emotional Support Animals

 

https://www.esaregistration.org/

ESA Registration Of America allows you to self-register your animal as an emotional support animal. Bring your animal anywhere in public it is permitted.

Just finished our first flight with our little Penelope and it was so amazing being able to have her sitting right next to us the entire flight. Thanks so much!

 

LOL, they didn't say that their anxiety was lessened on the flight.

Spend a few bucks and take Fido anywhere.

Another Sells Kits to make your dog an ESA. Here is an example of their product.

Compare our

Emotional Support Dog

Kits

 

 

 

Basic Kit

$79

Complete Kit

$159

Deluxe Kit

$199

 

As I said previously I'd rather have a 100 legitimate, OK maybe not 100 but a lot, of ADA service dogs on my cruise than Fido in their Captain's outfit.

[TacMedic]

I just did a google search and the top results were sites that tell you how to register your animal as an ESA and take it anywhere. I love the three dogs and cats that I had over the years but I would never drag them on my holiday, and I sure as heck would not dress them or push them in a stroller. Maybe people who do that have a physiological disorder or an attention seeking disorder. ;)

Chief said it best. There is a difference between ESA animals and ADA animals. ADA allows people with disabilities to bring their service animals in public places. However, the ADA only extends these protections to dogs that have been "individually trained" to "perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability," which is the definition of service animals. Since emotional support animals (ESA) are typically not trained for an individual's specific disability and since emotional support animals might not be dogs, they do not receive the protections of the ADA. A public place can therefore deny an emotional support animal admission. Being from Canada I might have missed something but that is my understanding of the system.

 

Business, housing complexes etc by law must follow the ADA act. If they don't they can/will suffer the consequences, in the forms of fines etc. However, the average business owner doesn't know the differences between the two and would rather welcome all pets than face the consequences. This is where people have taken advantage of the ESA system and over time it has gotten worse over the last few years.

One of the ESA web-sites promoted flying with your pet on your lap and living in a pet free housing with you "support animal". Below is a quote right from a web-site .

 

"By receiving a prescription from one of our therapists for an Emotional Support Animal (ESA) you’ll never have to compromise where you live or where you travel again. Signing up for an ESA assessment with one of our therapists is quick, easy, and applies to animals of all shapes and sizes. Get an official prescription letter from a certified therapist, and be on your way to living stress and worry free with your Emotional Support Animal".

I'm not sure a how therapist can give a prescription letter over the internet, at most possible by phone conversation but it can be done.;)The further I read into the website, it looks like a money making endeavour for those who will take Fifi anywhere. Need a ESA letter, they will provide one for you for a fee etc. If people are buying outfits for their dogs, what is a fee more dollars so they can take them anywhere.

 

Somewhere along the way the dog went from being a pet to a family member and this industry is taking advantage of their market place. Just spend the bucks and take for dog, cat, or peacock anywhere. Well until a crackdown happens, and it appears as though the airlines are doing it now.

 

 

 

This is an example of one of the ESA website providers.

 

ESA Registration Of America - Emotional Support Animals

 

https://www.esaregistration.org/

ESA Registration Of America allows you to self-register your animal as an emotional support animal. Bring your animal anywhere in public it is permitted.

Just finished our first flight with our little Penelope and it was so amazing being able to have her sitting right next to us the entire flight. Thanks so much!

 

LOL, they didn't say that their anxiety was lessened on the flight.

Spend a few bucks and take Fido anywhere.

Another Sells Kits to make your dog an ESA. Here is an example of their product.

Compare our

Emotional Support Dog

Kits

 

 

 

Basic Kit

$79

Complete Kit

$159

Deluxe Kit

$199

 

As I said previously I'd rather have a 100 legitimate ADA service dogs on my cruise than Fido in their Captain's outfit.

The irony is by law cannot ask for proof as my understanding. So all those kits seem to be getting people from there money, I don't have an issue. The problem is it is almost impossible to tell if it's a ESA vs "real" service animal. Unless they brag that it's just to take Fido on the cruise. Is my overall point.

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[chengkp75]

While I agree that raised voices and yelling are discourteous, mainly to those around, a stern confrontation is what is needed with these people, and that may show the business owners that they have allies in the fight against these impostors.

 

And for JR, the ADA does not get an ESA "in the door". ESA's have no rights to be in a store unless the owner decides to allow it. If folks want to change this so that "legitimate" ESA's have the same rights as service animals, then they need to have Congress change the ADA, and if they want to do the same thing with cruise ships, then they need to specifically mention them in the ADA, as the SCOTUS required in their Spector v NCL ruling. That's been over 10 years ago, and Congress has shown no intention of amending the ADA.

[A&L_Ont]

The irony is by law cannot ask for proof as my understanding. So all those kits seem to be getting people from there money, I don't have an issue. The problem is it is almost impossible to tell if it's a ESA vs "real" service animal. Unless they brag that it's just to take Fido on the cruise. Is my overall point.

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

Agree with you and basically that is what I said in my post.

 

“Business, housing complexes etc by law must follow the ADA act. If they don't they can/will suffer the consequences, in the forms of fines etc. However, the average business owner doesn't know the differences between the two and would rather welcome all pets than face the consequences. This is where people have taken advantage of the ESA system and over time it has gotten worse over the last few years.”

[Sam Ting]

While I agree that raised voices and yelling are discourteous, mainly to those around, a stern confrontation is what is needed with these people, and that may show the business owners that they have allies in the fight against these impostors.

 

And for JR, the ADA does not get an ESA "in the door". ESA's have no rights to be in a store unless the owner decides to allow it. If folks want to change this so that "legitimate" ESA's have the same rights as service animals, then they need to have Congress change the ADA, and if they want to do the same thing with cruise ships, then they need to specifically mention them in the ADA, as the SCOTUS required in their Spector v NCL ruling. That's been over 10 years ago, and Congress has shown no intention of amending the ADA.

 

Probably not the best idea to have a stern confrontation with anyone, especially someone who may be emotionally unstable to begin with. Just sayin.....

[cruzinlady1947]

I can't even put into words just how awful and disgusting that is.

 

 

 

When I experienced this on the Grandeur, not the actual act, the crew who cleaned it up treated it like when someone throws up, they had hazmat suits on and disinfected the area. Still disgusting when the owner just walks away without reporting it and having it cleaned up the way it should be.

 

 

Gwen [emoji3]

[John Reid]

Lol, you are calling me pretentious when you are calling on people to bark out people who bring their service animal to the dinner.

 

Ok, dude. You, do you.

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

LOL. Dude. Wow. What does "You, do you" mean? And a dog fed at the dinning room table is NOT a service dog. The owner of a service dog would know it is not acceptable. You seem to adjust what is written to fit your view. And, yes, fellow dinners should not accept a dog being fed at the dinner table. Polite silence will just keep the status quo. People to bark out. . . humor? And you don't seem to understand the actual meaning of pretentious.

[grapau27]

Itis nice to read that your cousin’s PTSD service animal is giving him the support that he needs. I personally would rather have a hundred of these dogs on my sailing VS one in a Captain's outfit.

Totally agree.

 

Sent from my Kestrel using Forums mobile app

[Chrome Diva]

My 2 cents.

If you need to bring an animal 🦓 on the ship there could be a service charge applied for potty pads to cleaning and sterilization after the animal 🦒 departs the vessel. No animals in any eating venue. Room service is available at the customary fees. Dogs not allowed to stay in cabin without an adult. No animals on any furniture. They must stay on the floor. That’s my thoughts and I have a dog and he is at home while we are away.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[gfountain1]

I believe that may encroach on ADA regs

[Merion_Mom]

I believe that may encroach on ADA regs

 

The ADA does not permit the charging of fees for the animal's presence, but I do not believe that it prohibits charging for materials. I could be wrong, and look forward to being corrected by Googlers.

 

And you are right that they cannot be banned from eating venues, since their owners may need them there as well. But they can certainly be required to remain on the floor beneath the owner. In fact, that is what RC rules say. And RC rules actually say many of those things, like not leaving the animal alone in the cabin.

 

BUT THERE IS NO ENFORCEMENT.

 

Here are the rules:

 

http://www.royalcaribbean.com/contentWithHero.do?pagename=service_animals

 

I was going to cut and paste the whole page, but it is LONG. Click on the link and read.

[Merion_Mom]

Ok, here it is:

 

Service Animals

 





Royal Caribbean International welcomes service dogs on all ships.* Please note we do not accept pets.

 

A service dog is defined as "any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of a person with a disability." Service dogs are not considered pets.

 

Evidence that a dog is a service dog is helpful but not required (such as identification cards, other written documentation, presence of harnesses and/or tags or the credible verbal assurance of the person with a disability using the dog).

 

We provide 4 feet by 4 feet relief areas with cypress mulch to accommodate service dogs. Sod for sailings from the U.S. can be provided if ordered in advance and is available. Relief areas are provided on a shared basis with other service dogs onboard. Please note that

Central Park

on Oasis

SM

class ships is not designated as a relief area.

 

Please notify our Access Department at time of booking but no later than 30 days prior to sailing if a service dog relief area is needed.

 

Service dogs are permitted to accompany the person with a disability in all public areas, including dining venues. While in public areas, service dogs must be on a leash, harness or other restraining device. Due to health regulations, service dogs are not permitted in pools, whirlpools or spas.

 

Care and supervision of the service dog is the sole responsibility of the owner. The ships are not required to provide food or care for the dog.

 

Guests may bring a reasonable quantity of food and bowls for the dog onboard the ship at no additional charge. If refrigerated space is needed, notify our Access Department at time of booking but no later than 30 days prior to sailing.

 

If the guest chooses to disembark the ship at a port at which the service dog must remain onboard, the guest must make arrangements to ensure that the dog is cared for. Note that the ship's staff is not required to care for the dog, nor can the dog be left in the stateroom unattended.

 

Guests are responsible for obtaining all required documents for the animal to depart the ship in ports of call and at final destination. For document requirements, visit:

• U.S. Department of Agriculture website at: http://awic.nal.usda.gov/companion-animals/travel-and-transport
  
• Hawaii Department of Agriculture website at: http://hdoa.hawaii.gov/ai/aqs/guide-service-dogs/
  
• UK Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs website at: https://www.gov.uk/defra
  

A copy of these permits must be carried on the ship, and a copy left with Guest Relations Desk upon boarding the ship.

 

Please not all documentation and immunization requirements are established by government authorities and not Royal Caribbean International. Please note requirements are subject to change without notice.

 









Guests are responsible for the behavior or damage caused by their service dog. A cleaning fee may be charged to the guest's shipboard account.

 

If the service dog's behavior creates a fundamental alteration or a direct threat to safety, the dog may be denied boarding or removed from the ship along with the owner at the guest's expense. Examples include: growling, barking excessively, initiating unsolicited contact, biting other guests and/or crewmembers, failure to use designated relief areas, sitting on furniture, eating from the table, etc.

 

If you have an animal that does not meet the definition of a service animal (i.e. a dog trained to perform a task) but must accompany you in order to assist you with your disability, please contact our Access Department at least 60 days prior to sailing.

 

Assistance Dogs to the United Kingdom (UK)









Assistance dogs entering the United Kingdom must meet the rules of the Pet Travel Scheme.













You are responsible for ensuring your assistance dog meets all these rules. Please make sure you have had the procedures carried out in the correct order and your dog's documentation is correctly completed.













We will do our best to assist you in ensuring your assistance dog is checked for compliance with the Pet Travel Scheme at boarding. Please note dogs that fail checks will not be allowed to sail.













If you experience a problem with your documentation upon entry into the United Kingdom, then any related costs for either the quarantine of or re-export of your pet will be entirely your responsiblity.













In general, you will need a pet passport (for guests from UK and EU) or official third country veterinary certificate (for guests from the U.S. and other countries outside the UK and EU) showing the dog has been micro-chipped, vaccinated against rabies, and treated against tapeworm not less than 24 hours, and not more than 120 hours before arrival in the UK (not required if travelling from Ireland, Finland, Malta or Norway).













Pet Passport and Third Country Certificates must be signed, dated and stamped by an Official Veterinarian; this may be different than your local veterinarian. This usually takes extra time.













Tapeworm treatment should be arranged at the next to last port of call prior to entry to the UK just in case for any reason the scheduled treatment cannot be done, there is another opportunity to arrange a treatment at the next port of call.













For more information:

• Visit the DEFRA website at: www.gov.uk/defra
  
• Contact the Pet Travel Scheme Helpline: Telephone: +44 (0) 370 241 1710 - Monday to Friday - 8 AM to 6 PM UK time (closed Bank Holidays)E-mail: pettravel@ahvla.gsi.gov.uk - please include your postal address and a day time telephone number
  
• Consult your veterinarian