Is this a legal itinerary?

[LadyBeBop]

I’m thinking no, but I want to ask y’aall first.

 

I’m sailing the last RCCI Ovation of the Seas Alaska cruise in 2019. Seattle to Vancouver with stops in Skagway, Juneau and Victoria. After Vancouver, the ship continues on to Honolulu, then eventually Sydney for the winter.

 

On the Roll Call, some suggested a possible B2B. The Alaskan cruise, followed by the Hawaiian cruise, disembarking in Honolulu.

 

Unfortunately, that’s not a legal itinerary. You’re embarking in one American port, and disembarking in another.

 

Then, I thought: What if you left the ship in Victoria and made your way to Vancouver to embark again? Making this two cruises: American port to Canadian port and Canadian port to American port.

 

Would RCCI even allow that? Since you already booked passage to Vancouver, could you leave your baggage in your cabin, assuming you booked the same cabin to Honolulu? You’d just take off an overnight case in Victoria.

 

Again, I’m thinking no. But am I correct?

[Nic6318]

Hi

 

I am not sure what you feel is not allowed.

 

The ship goes from the U.S. to Canada. That is allowed. So, they continue back to the U.S.. As a segment that would be allowed. If you did the back to back, you would be travelling from a U.S. port to a U.S. port, with a stop in Canada...that would be allowed. The continuation to Australia is fine as well.

[Floridiana]

I am probably misunderstanding this completely. You would go from Seattle, USA to Vancouver, Canada via Alaska and then from Vancouver, Canada to Honolulu, USA. What would be illegal? I have been on a b2b cruise Miami- Western Caribbean - Miami, Miami - Eastern Caribbean- Miami and a cruise from NYCity to Miami via Manaus, Brazil. None of it was illegal.

[pdmartyn65]

I am probably misunderstanding this completely. You would go from Seattle, USA to Vancouver, Canada via Alaska and then from Vancouver, Canada to Honolulu, USA. What would be illegal? I have been on a b2b cruise Miami- Western Caribbean - Miami, Miami - Eastern Caribbean- Miami and a cruise from NYCity to Miami via Manaus, Brazil. None of it was illegal.

 

 

 

On your New York to Miami, you visited Brazil. It is considered a “Distant” foreign port so it is legal. Vancouver is not considered distant, so it would be illegal. Round trip cruises are a totally different circumstance. Hope that helps.

 

 

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[LHT28]

There is a clause I believe that it can be a foreign port does not to be a Distant foreign port

 

That is why some round trips to Hawaii stop in Ensenada

 

You could read the whole PVSA just google it

[LHT28]

Then, I thought: What if you left the ship in Victoria and made your way to Vancouver to embark again? Making this two cruises: American port to Canadian port and Canadian port to American port.

What would be the point both ports are Canadian anyway :confused:

[pdmartyn65]

There is a clause I believe that it can be a foreign port does not to be a Distant foreign port

 

That is why some round trips to Hawaii stop in Ensenada

 

You could read the whole PVSA just google it

 

 

 

It’s a round trip, any foreign port is ok. Between two US cities, it must be a distant foreign port. That is why Panama Canal trips between LA and Miami always stop in Colombia or the ABC islands. They are considered distant. No other Caribbean port is.

 

 

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[LHT28]

It’s a round trip, any foreign port is ok. Between two US cities, it must be a distant foreign port. That is why Panama Canal trips between LA and Miami always stop in Colombia or the ABC islands. They are considered distant. No other Caribbean port is.

 

OK

 

got it

That is why Canada works on cruises r/t out of Seattle

Edited July 5, 2018 by LHT28

[voyager70]

Hi

 

I am not sure what you feel is not allowed.

 

The ship goes from the U.S. to Canada. That is allowed. So, they continue back to the U.S.. As a segment that would be allowed. If you did the back to back, you would be travelling from a U.S. port to a U.S. port, with a stop in Canada...that would be allowed. The continuation to Australia is fine as well.

 

Doing the first two segments only would be illegal, as the PVSA would be violated without a stop in a foreign distant port. No port in Canada is deemed a foreign distant port. You would have to continue on to Sydney for this journey to legal, or just do one of the first two segments.

[chengkp75]

Here's what I understand:

 

Seattle to Vancouver via Alaska

Vancouver to Hawaii

 

Each segment by themselves is legal, as each begins or ends in a foreign country. Combining them is not legal, because CBP looks at the embarkation point, and the final disembarkation point at the start and end of the transportation, so this would be one cruise in CBP's eyes, regardless of how it is advertised or sold.

 

I'm not familiar with the itinerary of the Alaska cruise, so I don't know if you would be doing early disembarkation in Victoria one day, and re-embarking in Vancouver the next day? If not, then it would not be legal. If so, it may be legal, but there are some caveats: One, you must permanently disembark the cruise in Victoria (settle your bill, take your luggage off the ship, and leave (this is a CBP requirement, not RCI's)). Two, you must arrange this with RCI in advance, and they are charging $50-70 for downline disembarking. Third, they may not want to deal with the hassle of explaining to CBP about one or two guests who disembarked early and then re-embarked at another port, so they won't sell the combination.

[crzndeb]

You can change ships. Although it might be more of a hassle, at least you could do the S2S (side to side).

 

This is also why the last Alaska cruise is not round trip from Seattle. It couldn’t legally go to Honolulu then.

[Heidi13]

As others confirmed the PVSA requirements differ for R/T cruises and cruises with different embarkation and different disembarkation ports. Neither Vancouver or Victoria meet the definition of a distant foreign port.

 

However, it is my understanding that PVSA kicks in when pax on say a legal R/T cruise, disembark early at another US port. In these cases, unless covered by an exemption the cruise line is fined.

 

Therefore, in the OP case it may work to your benefit to disembark in Victoria and rejoin in Vancouver, as you mentioned. It would at least be worth researching the PVSA fine print and/or asking the question to RCCL. Although you would pay for both full cruises, you are "jumping ship", or taking a land based tour, which may circumvent the PVSA.

[LadyBeBop]

Here's what I understand:

 

Seattle to Vancouver via Alaska

Vancouver to Hawaii

 

Each segment by themselves is legal, as each begins or ends in a foreign country. Combining them is not legal, because CBP looks at the embarkation point, and the final disembarkation point at the start and end of the transportation, so this would be one cruise in CBP's eyes, regardless of how it is advertised or sold.

 

I'm not familiar with the itinerary of the Alaska cruise, so I don't know if you would be doing early disembarkation in Victoria one day, and re-embarking in Vancouver the next day? If not, then it would not be legal. If so, it may be legal, but there are some caveats: One, you must permanently disembark the cruise in Victoria (settle your bill, take your luggage off the ship, and leave (this is a CBP requirement, not RCI's)). Two, you must arrange this with RCI in advance, and they are charging $50-70 for downline disembarking. Third, they may not want to deal with the hassle of explaining to CBP about one or two guests who disembarked early and then re-embarked at another port, so they won't sell the combination.

 

 

Thanks. I knew you’d be the one to understand.

 

The last port on our cruise is Victoria. So we’d have to take all of our belongings off in Victoria, take them on the ferry to Vancouver and reembark there.

 

Sounds like a hassle. Plus you’d have to deal with RCCI.

 

Thanks again. :)

[geoherb]

One problem is that the ship may not make it to Victoria. Some ships miss this port each year due to high winds.

[bob brown]

You could consider another alternative, if the scheduling works...Try to match up two different ships that would still allow you to make that connection, with perhaps a day or two in-between...not as convenient as keeping the same cabin all the way, but still worth considering...

[BourbonNBluesLuvr]

Hi,

 

As a couple others have suggested...you might consider switching ships to do the Hawaii leg. It appears the Celebrity Eclipse leaves Vancouver 2 days later than the Ovation, with a similar Hawaiian itinerary (both have an overnight in Lahaina...which is great for attending an evening luau)...so enjoy 2 nights in Vancouver (great city) and then a cruise on the Eclipse (great ship) ! Plus, if you have loyalty status on Royal, that will reciprocate over to Celebrity !

 

Enjoy...whatever you decide !

 

BBL

Edited July 6, 2018 by BourbonNBluesLuvr
typo

[LHT28]

So I am confused

 

if the first 2 cruises are illegal to book together why did RCCL book you as a B2B?

you would think they know this in not legal under the PVSA

[LadyBeBop]

Please keep in mind, I’m just cruising the Alaska RT. We don’t have the money or vacation time to continue to Hawaii. This was just bought up in our roll call.

 

Le sigh. Maybe if I win the lottery...

[zqvol]

Hi

 

I am not sure what you feel is not allowed.

 

The ship goes from the U.S. to Canada. That is allowed. So, they continue back to the U.S.. As a segment that would be allowed. If you did the back to back, you would be travelling from a U.S. port to a U.S. port, with a stop in Canada...that would be allowed. The continuation to Australia is fine as well.

 

The stop in Canada is irrelevant to the OP's question. The Seattle to AK, to HI with the Canadian stop is illegal under US maritime law.

 

 

Also OP's option of getting off in Victoria and back on in Vancouver is still illegal, because the cruise itself is still the same cruise.

[bob brown]

The stop in Canada is irrelevant to the OP's question. The Seattle to AK, to HI with the Canadian stop is illegal under US maritime law.

 

 

Also OP's option of getting off in Victoria and back on in Vancouver is still illegal, because the cruise itself is still the same cruise.

It's the same ship, not the same cruise.

 

And sometimes, the cruise line will do an illegal back to back like this inadvertantly, but later on will discover the violation, and cancel one or both cruises....the question becomes when, and what remedy they offer...

[FLACRUISER99]

So I am confused

 

if the first 2 cruises are illegal to book together why did RCCL book you as a B2B?

you would think they know this in not legal under the PVSA

A few folks are doing the AD 9/28/18 Cape Liberty to Quebec City B2B with the 10/8/18 Quebec City to Port Everglades. The Folks doing this claimed they have called RCI several times and RCI says this is a legal cruise because it overnights in Quebec City. Any input on this?

[Unibok]

What an interesting thread. I had no idea the PVSA existed.

 

Can anyone tell me why this law from 1886 is a good idea?

[chengkp75]

A few folks are doing the AD 9/28/18 Cape Liberty to Quebec City B2B with the 10/8/18 Quebec City to Port Everglades. The Folks doing this claimed they have called RCI several times and RCI says this is a legal cruise because it overnights in Quebec City. Any input on this?

 

If the first cruise ends on one day, and the next cruise starts on the next day, and everyone has to "permanently disembark" (settle bill, take luggage off) and stay in a hotel overnight, it would be legal.

[chengkp75]

What an interesting thread. I had no idea the PVSA existed.

 

Can anyone tell me why this law from 1886 is a good idea?

 

You must understand that this is the Passenger Vessel Services Act, not the Cruise Vessel Services Act. The international legal definition of a "passenger" vessel is "any vessel that carries more than 12 people for hire". Therefore, this act restricts all "coastwise" (from one US port to another US port) and "inland" (rivers and harbors) to US flag vessels. This includes every ferry, commuter boat, water taxi, duck tour, whale watching, dinner cruise, casino, and even some larger charter fishing vessels. The PVSA provides tens of thousands of US jobs and tens of millions of dollars to the US economy.

 

I assume you read about the PVSA from Wikipedia, whose description of the reasons for enacting the PVSA are not quite correct (as with much of Wiki). In the mid 1800's, there were many fires and explosions on the steamboats plying the US rivers and harbors, carrying passengers around the country. In order to protect the people, Congress enacted the Steamboat Acts of 1838 and 1852, which mandated safety standards and equipment on these boats, and formed the Steamboat Inspection Service, which is the forerunner of today's USCG Marine Safety Division (those USCG inspectors you see delaying embarkation due to inspections for the crew). In response, the steamboat owners reflagged their boats to foreign countries and were therefore exempt from the Acts. In response to this, Congress passed the PVSA, which restricted "coastwise" and "inland" passenger service to US flag vessels, which would have to be subject to the Steamboat Acts.

 

The USCG has more stringent regulations that they can enforce on US flag vessels, with regards to safety, training, licensing, and environmental concerns, than they can enforce on foreign flag vessels. The inspections that the USCG does on foreign flag cruise ships is only as "port state control", and can only ensure that the international requirements of SOLAS, STCW, MLC, MARPOL and other international conventions are met, not the USCG's own requirements.

 

Also know that CLIA, the cruise industry group, has stated publicly that none of their member cruise lines have any interest in amending or repealing the PVSA, since they see little to no benefit to their bottom line, and possible additional costs due to restrictions that might be placed on their ships in lieu of the PVSA.

[FLACRUISER99]

If the first cruise ends on one day, and the next cruise starts on the next day, and everyone has to "permanently disembark" (settle bill, take luggage off) and stay in a hotel overnight, it would be legal.

First Cruise

 

• 
  
  • 
    
    • Fri 28/09/18
      
    • Cape Liberty (NJ) / USA
      
    • 15:00
      

    [*]

    • Sat 29/09/18
      
    • At Sea
      

    [*]

    • Sun 30/09/18
      
    • Bar Harbor (ME)* / USA
      
    • 07:00
      
    • 18:00
      

    [*]

    • Mon 01/10/18
      
    • Portland (ME) / USA
      
    • 07:00
      
    • 17:00
      

    [*]

    • Tue 02/10/18
      
    • Saint John (New Brunswick) / Canada
      
    • 08:00
      
    • 17:00
      

    [*]

    • Wed 03/10/18
      
    • Halifax / Canada
      
    • 11:00
      
    • 20:00
      

    [*]

    • Thu 04/10/18
      
    • At Sea
      

    [*]

    • Fri 05/10/18
      
    • Sydney (Cape Breton Island) / Canada
      
    • 07:00
      
    • 17:00
      

    [*]

    • Sat 06/10/18
      
    • Charlottetown (Prince Edward Island) / Canada
      
    • 07:00
      
    • 16:00
      

    [*]

    • Sun 07/10/18
      
    • At Sea
      

    [*]

    • Mon 08/10/18
      
    • Quebec / Canada
      
    • 06:00
      

  [*]2nd Cruise

• 
  
  • Mon 08/10/18
    
  • Quebec / Canada
    

  [*]

  • Tue 09/10/18
    
  • Quebec / Canada
    
  • 17:00
    

  [*]

  • Wed 10/10/18
    
  • At Sea
    

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  • Thu 11/10/18
    
  • Charlottetown (Prince Edward Island) / Canada
    
  • 08:00
    
  • 18:00
    

  [*]

  • Fri 12/10/18
    
  • Sydney (Cape Breton Island) / Canada
    
  • 07:00
    
  • 15:30
    

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  • Sat 13/10/18
    
  • Halifax / Canada
    
  • 07:00
    
  • 16:00
    

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  • Sun 14/10/18
    
  • Saint John (New Brunswick) / Canada
    
  • 08:45
    
  • 19:00
    

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  • Mon 15/10/18
    
  • Bar Harbor (ME)* / USA
    
  • 07:00
    
  • 19:00
    

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  • Tue 16/10/18
    
  • Portland (ME) / USA
    
  • 07:00
    
  • 18:00
    

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  • Wed 17/10/18
    
  • Boston (MA) / USA
    
  • 07:00
    
  • 17:00
    

  [*]

  • Thu 18/10/18
    
  • At Sea
    

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  • Fri 19/10/18
    
  • At Sea
    

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  • Sat 20/10/18
    
  • Port Canaveral (Orlando, FL) / USA
    
  • 07:00
    
  • 19:00
    

  [*]

  • Sun 21/10/18
    
  • Fort Lauderdale (Port Everglades, FL) / USA
    
  • 06:0