Interesting Development Re Service Dogs

[Haboob]

1 hour ago, Mavis and Me said:

I don't see it as a defect at all; allowing handlers to owner-train their service dogs is important.  Not every program out there that trains service dogs is going to be able to 'special order' the service dog that every disabled handler needs.  Also, program dogs can cost $1,000s, and often times there is a long wait list.  Sure, not every handler is versed in the various aspects of socialization, generalization, obedience work, and task training, but many are.  

 

So, are you suggesting that fellow passengers become vigilante service dog police?  That's no more fair that if I were to harass every person in a wheel chair and suggest that they COULD stand if they really wanted to.  If you spot a service dog that is acting aggressively, by all means, report it to the appropriate authorities.  If a service dog is pawing, whining, jumping on, or pulling the leash of a handler, assume it is alerting to an upcoming episode.  Their ability to communicate with us (especially when we humans aren't always the brightest bulbs!) is very limited, and some alerts can look like naughty behavior.  Please try to keep this in mind before you run up to someone with a service dog and start pestering them about their need for the dog.  That kind of confrontation can send some folks straight into an episode!

Valid points.  But my point that there are unsuitable and even dangerous-to-the-public fully legal service animals out there is valid as well.  Service animal policy needs balance between the unquestionable needs of the disabled and the undeniable need for public safety.  The ADA lacks that balance.

 

Forbearance when in doubt and politeness always, but --c'mon, man-- A Champagne-fed purse dog snaffling a morsel off my plate?  A dog described above as "does not do well with strangers" as we pass in a corridor half-blocked by a stewards' cart?

[4cats4me]

I think I’ll bring my emotional support cats onboard with me on my next cruise and let them enjoy the run of the ship. That way I won’t have to pay for a pet sitter. 

 

 

 

[Expat Cruise]

2 hours ago, 4cats4me said:

I think I’ll bring my emotional support cats onboard with me on my next cruise and let them enjoy the run of the ship. That way I won’t have to pay for a pet sitter. 

 

 

 

Princess Cruises does not allow emotional support animals on it's ships. But I two miss my cats when we cruise. I could get paperwork for them within the day "calming" Emotional Support Animals. But would not do so as it is the wrong thing to do. Service dogs are important and needed Emotional Support Animals are not.

 

[pms4104]

7 hours ago, 4cats4me said:

I think I’ll bring my emotional support cats onboard with me on my next cruise and let them enjoy the run of the ship. That way I won’t have to pay for a pet sitter. 

 

 

 

You are joking, right?

[Globehoppers]

On 11/15/2019 at 3:38 AM, Mavis and Me said:

Not at all. My dog works hard all day long, and once I remove her gear and put her ‘to bed’ at night, she is off duty. If I must go out again, I will try to take a service ‘human’ (hubby or kid) in order that my dog has adequate down time each day.  I prefer the company of my dog when it comes to my health, but she deserves time off just like anyone else. Just because you might see a service dog handler without their dog doesn’t mean that it is a comfort animal or a pet. Sometimes we choose to use an assistant in order to protect our dogs health or safety!  🙂

 

Illogical.  A true service dog is trained to sense "events" before they occur and provide warning.  "Hubby" service person cannot do that.  Agree the dogs deserve "time off" but that its a human consideration.  Most dogs, service or otherwise, prefer the company of their humans over everything else, except maybe eating. 

[Kansas Gal]

We were on a 10-day bus trip with a blind gentleman with a seeing eye dog.  The dog performed well and no one had any problem with it.  The gentleman said it was his second dog, however he would never get another one.  He said he felt the training they put them through bordered on "abuse."  He did not elaborate on what exactly that entailed.

[I Love Cruising 3]

4 hours ago, pms4104 said:

You are joking, right?

I think it was suppose to be sarcastic but I would pity people who had a cat allergy who went into that cabin if it were true.

[Mavis and Me]

16 hours ago, Haboob said:

Valid points.  But my point that there are unsuitable and even dangerous-to-the-public fully legal service animals out there is valid as well.  Service animal policy needs balance between the unquestionable needs of the disabled and the undeniable need for public safety.  The ADA lacks that balance.

 

Forbearance when in doubt and politeness always, but --c'mon, man-- A Champagne-fed purse dog snaffling a morsel off my plate?  A dog described above as "does not do well with strangers" as we pass in a corridor half-blocked by a stewards' cart?

Agreed, and it would be great if there were a certifying agency that could test a service dog’s preparedness for public access.  But... who would pay for this?  The disabled person (who statistically is lower-middle class)?  The gov’t?  In BC they have a voluntary service dog certification that I considered using in order to have a legit certification for my SD for use during travel. They charge $200/test regardless of a pass/fail. And I think they require recertification every year (not 100% sure about that part).  My insurance won’t pay for this - despite my dog being medical equipment - so I’d be stuck paying for all of it.  Probably a cruising message board isn’t the best place to find financial peers to the average disabled service dog handler, but hopefully you can see my point.  🙂

[RMMariner]

Just went to one of the Emotional Support Animal websites. You can register your snake, iguana, miniature horse, pig, rat, chinchilla (there was a space for other - tarantula?, camel? elephant?) etc. for $19.99 a year. No questions asked. You can buy official ID for $49.99 a year. The website says it is applicable for free air travel and is legally acceptable in all 50 states. You can buy tags, vests etc. as well. The site also clearly stated that no one is legally allowed to ask you how the animal supports you.

 

I went all the way to the payment screen. For this price, I could have registered my dog and brought it with me on our cruise. That is why people are tired of this ridiculous situation.

[BCCRUSINGCOUPLE]

Just went to one of the Emotional Support Animal websites. You can register your snake, iguana, miniature horse, pig, rat, chinchilla (there was a space for other - tarantula?, camel? elephant?) etc. for $19.99 a year. No questions asked. You can buy official ID for $49.99 a year. The website says it is applicable for free air travel and is legally acceptable in all 50 states. You can buy tags, vests etc. as well. The site also clearly stated that no one is legally allowed to ask you how the animal supports you.
 
I went all the way to the payment screen. For this price, I could have registered my dog and brought it with me on our cruise. That is why people are tired of this ridiculous situation.

I agree with you 100 percent. It has gone to far.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mavis and Me]

2 hours ago, Globehoppers said:

 

Illogical.  A true service dog is trained to sense "events" before they occur and provide warning.  "Hubby" service person cannot do that.  Agree the dogs deserve "time off" but that its a human consideration.  Most dogs, service or otherwise, prefer the company of their humans over everything else, except maybe eating. 

Yea, but my dog isn’t a robot that can go-go-go 24/7.  I’d like her to last at least 6 years LOVING the work she does, and working her into the ground would be counter productive.  Sure, she’d rather be with me 24/7, but that’s not always in HER best interest. True, my family can’t predict when something is off about me, but they can help me manage it once it happens.  My dog gives me incredible independence and makes it possible for my family to function without worrying about babysitting me every time I want to do something!

[TNTLAMB]

3 hours ago, Globehoppers said:

 

Illogical.  A true service dog is trained to sense "events" before they occur and provide warning.  "Hubby" service person cannot do that.  Agree the dogs deserve "time off" but that its a human consideration.  Most dogs, service or otherwise, prefer the company of their humans over everything else, except maybe eating. 

That's not true. For example,  my Grandaughters service animal is trained to react to a seizure in a number of ways. But she does not "see them coming " My granddaughter now 20 however knows when one is coming and simply moves a sash she is wearing from one side to the other and the dog is on alert.

 

He will react irregardless if she seizes. The dog incidentally cost 6000dollars fully covered by insurance. In addition the testing also cost her nothing as the independent testing organization can not take payment from either the trainer or the owners.  That is not the case with ESA animals. The testing was quite an experience.  In the resteraunt portion as Sheeba was laying under the table a series of treats were laid one inch from her nose.  The expectation was she would not react in any way. Quite the test. That dog when off duty would do back flips for a French fry. As far as aggressive that's another thing when my granddaughter is siezes Sheba's first job is to clear the area and she will as well as keep it clear.

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by TNTLAMB

[K.T.B.]

On 11/16/2019 at 10:24 AM, Haboob said:

 

Close but no cigar.  The problem is people bringing on animals which are legally service animals (a simple claim "I trained my dog to do 'x' to assist me with my disability 'y' " makes them so under the ADA) but without the training and temperament associated with what the rest of us would call a legit service dog.  When a cruise offers accommodations (staterooms) while in US waters, the ADA bars Princess from asking any questions about the nature, extent, or effectiveness of that training.  Not so fellow passengers.

 

The part I highlighted in red is 100% incorrect.  A legitimately trained service animal must be be trained by a professional.  Otherwise it will not fall under ADA guidelines and, therefore, is not a "legal" service animal.

 

Seriously, does anyone here know exactly what goes into the training of these animals?  It's not a weekend course.  It's weeks, sometimes months, of training.  Not only for the animal, but for the owner as well.  My grandson and his dog trained together for 2 weeks straight together.  Prior to that, she had been trained for 6 weeks.  After she joined him and his family there were spot checks to make sure that he maintained the proper training of her and that she was not treat "just as a family pet". He has had her for years and there's still the occasional check in.

 

There are way too many assumptions going on here about what's legal and what's not.

Edited November 17, 2019 by K.T.B.

[Haboob]

1 hour ago, K.T.B. said:

 

The part I highlighted in red is 100% incorrect.  A legitimately trained service animal must be be trained by a professional.  Otherwise it will not fall under ADA guidelines and, therefore, is not a "legal" service animal.

 

Seriously, does anyone here know exactly what goes into the training of these animals?  It's not a weekend course.  It's weeks, sometimes months, of training.  Not only for the animal, but for the owner as well.  My grandson and his dog trained together for 2 weeks straight together.  Prior to that, she had been trained for 6 weeks.  After she joined him and his family there were spot checks to make sure that he maintained the proper training of her and that she was not treat "just as a family pet". He has had her for years and there's still the occasional check in.

 

There are way too many assumptions going on here about what's legal and what's not.

 

I'll let you argue with the government:

Q5. Does the ADA require service animals to be professionally trained?

A. No. People with disabilities have the right to train the dog themselves and are not required to use a professional service dog training program.

https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

[Reader0108598]

2 minutes ago, Haboob said:

 

I'll let you argue with the government:

Q5. Does the ADA require service animals to be professionally trained?

A. No. People with disabilities have the right to train the dog themselves and are not required to use a professional service dog training program.

https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

Understood and we have the right to sue the cruise line or the airline and the owner when fluffy bites 🙂

Edited November 17, 2019 by Reader0108598

[Haboob]

14 minutes ago, Reader0108598 said:

Understood and we have the right to sue the cruise line or the airline and the owner when fluffy bites 🙂

I'd be interested in an actual lawyer's opinion on "airline negligence" when the negligence is specifically mandated by federal regulation, or on "cruise line negligence" in Bermudian court if the ship is in international waters.

[Reader0108598]

Well we will find out from the man on Delta that had his face attacked twice ! He has a  suit against the airline! What i would like to add is where do my rights as a paying customer end and fluffies owners begin? I am not talking about legit trained service dogs! This poor man was in a window seat he heard the dog start to growl! He had no where to go! 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Reader0108598

[Haboob]

2 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

The part I highlighted in red is 100% incorrect.  A legitimately trained service animal must be be trained by a professional.  Otherwise it will not fall under ADA guidelines and, therefore, is not a "legal" service animal.

 

Seriously, does anyone here know exactly what goes into the training of these animals?  It's not a weekend course.  It's weeks, sometimes months, of training.  Not only for the animal, but for the owner as well.  My grandson and his dog trained together for 2 weeks straight together.  Prior to that, she had been trained for 6 weeks.  After she joined him and his family there were spot checks to make sure that he maintained the proper training of her and that she was not treat "just as a family pet". He has had her for years and there's still the occasional check in.

 

There are way too many assumptions going on here about what's legal and what's not.

PS.  Concur on "legitimate".  The issue is with those that are merely legally a service animal.

 

Kudos to your grandson, his dog, and his dog's trainer for doing it right.

[4cats4me]

15 hours ago, pms4104 said:

You are joking, right?

 

Yes.

 

[4cats4me]

11 hours ago, I Love Cruising 3 said:

I think it was suppose to be sarcastic but I would pity people who had a cat allergy who went into that cabin if it were true.

 

Yes, it was a joke. 

 

I wrote a review a month ago and posted it on here regarding our experience Rolling our luggage through dog poo on disembarkation day.  There was a woman with her dog onboard that growled and barked every time I saw it.  The finale was rolling our suitcase through one piece of poppy.  There were two nuggets.  We told personnel so as to prevent more people getting it on their shoes or luggage.  

When we were called to disembark 20 mins later, one poop was still there.   

 

[4cats4me]

10 hours ago, RMMariner said:

Just went to one of the Emotional Support Animal websites. You can register your snake, iguana, miniature horse, pig, rat, chinchilla (there was a space for other - tarantula?, camel? elephant?) etc. for $19.99 a year. No questions asked. You can buy official ID for $49.99 a year. The website says it is applicable for free air travel and is legally acceptable in all 50 states. You can buy tags, vests etc. as well. The site also clearly stated that no one is legally allowed to ask you how the animal supports you.

 

I went all the way to the payment screen. For this price, I could have registered my dog and brought it with me on our cruise. That is why people are tired of this ridiculous situation.

 

Absolutely disgusting.  Gee, I kind of miss the olden days, when something like this would have been next to impossible before everyone could just press a button and print out a bogus certificate.  An emotional support spider would be the breaking point for me.  OMG.  Unbelievable!!! 

[Mavis and Me]

13 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

The part I highlighted in red is 100% incorrect.  A legitimately trained service animal must be be trained by a professional.  Otherwise it will not fall under ADA guidelines and, therefore, is not a "legal" service animal.

 

Seriously, does anyone here know exactly what goes into the training of these animals?  It's not a weekend course.  It's weeks, sometimes months, of training.  Not only for the animal, but for the owner as well.  My grandson and his dog trained together for 2 weeks straight together.  Prior to that, she had been trained for 6 weeks.  After she joined him and his family there were spot checks to make sure that he maintained the proper training of her and that she was not treat "just as a family pet". He has had her for years and there's still the occasional check in.

 

There are way too many assumptions going on here about what's legal and what's not.

Honesty? 8 weeks of training is generally not NEAR enough to cover all the things that a service dog might encounter during its working career.  My dog went through 6 months, 4 - 5 days/week, of public access training before being ‘certified’ by an AKC 3rd party evaluator.  (Again, to be clear, there is no such thing as a certified service dog in the US.). Because I trained her myself I am always working to improve and reinforce that training by competing with her in obedience trials. To say that a dog MUST be trained by a professional  trainer to be a legitimate service dog is wrong. I’m not arguing that many task trained service dogs (i.e. real service dogs) could use better public access skills, because a lot of them could, but you shouldn’t clump all owner trained service dogs into the same category.  I’ve seen a lot of fantastically well behaved SDs who were owner trained!!!

[Colo Cruiser]

13 hours ago, Reader0108598 said:

Understood and we have the right to sue the cruise line or the airline and the owner when fluffy bites 🙂

I was wondering about the fact that my bag/carry on etc not being allowed near my bulkhead seat and has to be stored overhead.

What happens with turbulence and said "Tiny Horse" being hurtled around the cabin?

[tanzer22pilot]

1 hour ago, Colo Cruiser said:

I was wondering about the fact that my bag/carry on etc not being allowed near my bulkhead seat and has to be stored overhead.

What happens with turbulence and said "Tiny Horse" being hurtled around the cabin?

What is “tiny flying horse”, Alex.
 

Most passengers do not know how fast an airliner can (and will have to) stop on a rejected takeoff.   My wife (former flight attendant) has watched “parents” hand an infant across the aisle on takeoff.  They have no clue on how that could have turned into an “aisle missile” instantly had we had to stop.

[Daniel A]

3 hours ago, Colo Cruiser said:

What happens with turbulence and said "Tiny Horse" being hurtled around the cabin?

If one can bring a horse onboard, why does it's size matter if it provides comfort?  We shouldn't discriminate against a horse just because of its size.  Also we shouldn't forget to bring along the horses' emotional support donkey.