Seabourn and the current issues surrounding the Corona Virus

[texanaust]

On 4/4/2020 at 4:24 AM, HappyFeet13 said:

My opinion is that they will all be forced to declare bankruptcy. I think it will be a long time (probably more than a year) before they cruise again, and when they do, the management and structure of the cruise lines will have changed. I also think FCC's will become nearly worthless (although they will be honored in some way by the newly-reorganized company at some time in the future) and I fear that refunds just won't happen. I really hope that I'm wrong, but I can't see how these cruise lines, with immense overhead and a lot of debt, can stay afloat (pun intended). "Mothballing" ships for a few months creates all kinds of problems, not the least of which is getting everything mechanically operational again. Anyone who has ever owned a boat knows that if you don't use them, they break. Planning routes, finding ports, arranging for fuel and supplies,  re-constituting trained crews, and finding passengers willing to get on a cruise ship, will be a nightmare. Of course Carnival and the others have to put a positive spin in order to get people to book for next year, and to buy their stock. They are fighting for their lives...and their jobs. But I think they know that even if they were allowed to start up again in two months, they just couldn't pull it off. When they re-start, it will be like planning a Normandy invasion, times 10. It will take many, many months to do that.  The cruise lines will be the major international business catastrophe of Covid 19. The airlines will get bailed-out because they are national assets and employ nationals in their own countries. The cruise lines are "a man without a country", and will be allowed to fail, because it is not in any nation's interest to spend many, many  billions to save them. Sorry to be such a sourpuss, but I think that's reality. 

 

This. 

 

Cruise lines really don't pay much tax to any country and so are seen as undeserving of a bailout.  Until they can test all passengers for Corona Virus as they walk down the gangway, how are port authorities going to trust they will not be receiving another Diamond Princess, Ruby Princess, (add name of multiple other cruise ships)?  Also many (most) crew members come from countries that have not been adequately testing for Covid-19.  Until this virus burns out in those countries, there is no way cruising will be able to restart.  

 

Finally, how is cruising going to begin when almost all international and domestic flights are grounded?   The airline 'restart' will be slow and airfares expensive.  Many airlines will be forced out of business and others will be dramatically altered.  In Australia, our two airlines have almost completely stopped all service.  Try getting from Melbourne to Sydney next week...Normally the second busiest route in the world (think 737 and A330 widebody service every 15 minutes during peak hours), we have one Qantas service per day going via Canberra on a 72 seat turboprop. 

 

One airline (Virgin) is likely to go bankrupt (no bailout) and the other may very well become a domestic only airline for a long time.  Cruising before 2021 just does not equate.

[saminina]

Dana, Dana,  when did you move down under?

[SLSD]

 

Another sobering article from Australia.  My husband and I were reading this together.  HIs comment was that the prior 20 million dollar fine to Carnival was nothing.  He said that only something like 850 million dollars would have gotten their attention.  Sadly, there is a lot of bias against cruise lines.  Hopefully, they will come through this with the ability to take more of us on wonderful trips again.  But, things will be different. 

 

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-13/coronavirus-spells-the-end-of-the-line-for-cruise-ships/12141140?pfmredir=sm&fbclid=IwAR1z5QxiZHKj3TQjOzXEqFrubLiGbz8aLEFiRl7AoXkNdeNEB99PWJptJyo

 

[zimflyer]

2 hours ago, SLSD said:

 

Another sobering article from Australia.  My husband and I were reading this together.  HIs comment was that the prior 20 million dollar fine to Carnival was nothing.  He said that only something like 850 million dollars would have gotten their attention.  Sadly, there is a lot of bias against cruise lines.  Hopefully, they will come through this with the ability to take more of us on wonderful trips again.  But, things will be different. 

 

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-13/coronavirus-spells-the-end-of-the-line-for-cruise-ships/12141140?pfmredir=sm&fbclid=IwAR1z5QxiZHKj3TQjOzXEqFrubLiGbz8aLEFiRl7AoXkNdeNEB99PWJptJyo

 

The last thing any of us want is to see the end of the industry as we know it...

 

Sadly the behaviour of the industry and its corporations have been clearly spotlighted.

 

The flags of convenience under which most lines are allowed to 'do as they will'

 

Pollution and misbehaviour of some where emissions and jettisoning of waste mid ocean bring 'scofflaws at sea' to mind...

 

Exploitation of crews, usually the unseen many on the lowest wages get the worst deal. (To be fair, these same hard workers are receiving 2 or 3 times home wages when comparison is made.) But still have long contract periods with long hours.

 

I could go on, casinos with no rules, overcharging for visas, excursions, medical etc.

 

Sort of a mini Macau at sea, which is fine for all of us who participate, enjoy and support a wonderful way for us to indulge... However, make no mistake it is our dollar that is going to the bottom line of this one sided and heavily corporatised  industry.

 

When you pay for a hat at Sears, you get a hat or a refund if it is faulty or out of stock.

 

Apparently, not so on a cruise, maybe the dollars per cruise booking should be held in trust until a voyage is completed.

 

We seem to have been helping the idea that its ok to "Rob Peter to pay Paul", and likely, if things continue, to not even see the gangplank...

 

Multiply the " lost cruises " by the $$$ received for them, through till end May...

 

Thats a lot of spondooliks held by the highwaymen of the sea...

 

A simplistic view maybe, but I don't believe you can hold onto money and not provide the service,   is our cash is paying for previous expenses...?

 

At the same time Carnival is baying for blood while its P&O, Princess and CCL ships wait offshore Australia. Governments must help apparently. Financially? Medically ? Cover the costs of an industry that has had boom times...? They cannot have it both ways... Pay taxes, follow employment laws, be good corporate citizens of the world, then it might be easier at this time. It may cost more, but that is price I would be happy to bear.

 

Most importantly: Surely the majority of crews are Asian based. How about taking the ships to Asia and charter to fly crew to home countries is better than hatching more covid cases while waiting at sea...?

 

This is a wake up, like the banks in 2008...

[Reef Knot]

Ok, these are exceptional times and to be fair, it's not only the cruise industry that can be accused of highway robbery.

Try getting a refund from an airline. Many will not entertain a cash refund and are only willing to give a voucher. Some hotels are trying to go down the same route.

Some (not all) travel agencies will only offer a rebooking for a later date or the dreaded voucher.

There are plenty of industries where overcharging is rife. Grab a beer from a mini bar in the Hilton, Buy a bottle of water at an airport etc. 

I also thought (maybe wrongly) that cruise ships were well regulated when it comes to marine pollution. All ships have sewage treatment plants onboard, waste management is governed by international maritime laws, all ships have an environment officer and crew etc .

Maybe I'm the one being too simplistic but I really don't think its only the cruise lines holding on to our money.

 

 

 

 

[frantic36]

13 hours ago, SLSD said:

 

Another sobering article from Australia.  My husband and I were reading this together.  HIs comment was that the prior 20 million dollar fine to Carnival was nothing.  He said that only something like 850 million dollars would have gotten their attention.  Sadly, there is a lot of bias against cruise lines.  Hopefully, they will come through this with the ability to take more of us on wonderful trips again.  But, things will be different. 

 

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-13/coronavirus-spells-the-end-of-the-line-for-cruise-ships/12141140?pfmredir=sm&fbclid=IwAR1z5QxiZHKj3TQjOzXEqFrubLiGbz8aLEFiRl7AoXkNdeNEB99PWJptJyo

 

 

 

SLSD this news report is quoting old news so though I agree cruise ships have caused a problem here with a lot of money being spent to supply hotels to quarantine and feed people plus fly them home in some cases. The quote from our Premier in WA is over a week old. At the time there were quite a few ships of our coastline and concern about caring for passengers and crew within the hospitals with Covid-19. This is well under control at this time so the rhetoric is less heated.

 

I am sure there will be some who will avoid cruising here and I think there will be more stringent requirements here for cruise ships. There will be some who will still enjoy cruising because it is usually a more relaxed option. 

 

SLSD I have to make an apology to you. Early in the year I was one who didn't think this was any worse then seasonal flu because Singapore, South Korea locked it down so quickly. After seeing the devastation wrought in Italy and Spain I changed my mind. I am sorry I doubted your information early but I guess I was basing it on my previous nursing experience dealing with H1N1...and this is 10,000 times worse. 

 

So I am sorry I doubted your information.

 

Julie

[zelker]

Just announced on Carnival website - all cruises cancelled through June 26th plus other cancellations/changes:

 

https://www.carnival.com/health-and-sailing-updates

 

Certainly expecting Seabourn and HAL to be announcing something similar in the next few days. 

[westmount]

For many reasons, this virus has chosen the cruise industry to be its main corporate victim, but its not like restaurants or retail stores have done much better. I would hope that wherever the cruise employee pays his./her taxes would help them out with whatever plan that country has, although i haven't heard of mass cancelations of cruise contracts yet. 

Those ships were never going anywhere with passengers in any case, so maybe the 100 days notice is a good thing. 

We need our hospital employees to be working safely, then comes essential service employees, then comes teachers, pilots, cabin staff, students, young employees, all down the line. Once all of them are able to be regularly tested and back to working safely, then comes office employees and everyone else. Once that is done, hopefully by September, October, and with the advent of 5 minute testing at airports, hotels, ports, then we can start booking cruises for 2021, as we need flights, hotels, and oh yeah, countries willing to take cruise passengers into their systems. 

   We will be back on ships in a year, maybe earlier , maybe later, and it doesn't matter if its called Carnival or something else, in the big picture life will be different when we get to the other side of this, hopefully for the better. 

[DWF]

This whole thing has been so poorly handled.  Their last update on their website was over a month ago.  Their doctor's video on the site "providing information you might find helpful" sounds so yesterday.  Most corporation's communications department would be in overdrive in a crisis like this to educate and protect their customer base.

[SLSD]

8 hours ago, frantic36 said:

 

 

SLSD this news report is quoting old news so though I agree cruise ships have caused a problem here with a lot of money being spent to supply hotels to quarantine and feed people plus fly them home in some cases. The quote from our Premier in WA is over a week old. At the time there were quite a few ships of our coastline and concern about caring for passengers and crew within the hospitals with Covid-19. This is well under control at this time so the rhetoric is less heated.

 

I am sure there will be some who will avoid cruising here and I think there will be more stringent requirements here for cruise ships. There will be some who will still enjoy cruising because it is usually a more relaxed option. 

 

SLSD I have to make an apology to you. Early in the year I was one who didn't think this was any worse then seasonal flu because Singapore, South Korea locked it down so quickly. After seeing the devastation wrought in Italy and Spain I changed my mind. I am sorry I doubted your information early but I guess I was basing it on my previous nursing experience dealing with H1N1...and this is 10,000 times worse. 

 

So I am sorry I doubted your information.

 

Julie

Julie/frantic36,   You are so kind to mention that you previously did not think the Corona Virus was any worse than flu and now have changed your mind.  I appreciate your comment very much.  My husband and I have been sheltering in place for a month now in Texas, as have our mothers (in their 90s) locked down in their retirement communities.  Our younger son and his family had to flee NYC about a month ago in fear for their health and our older son and his family are hunkered down in another state fearful for their medically fragile child who is at risk.  Not a relaxing time for anyone.  I think most realize this now. 

 

As for this article quoting old news--I think the point is that this "old news" has added to the grave hit the cruise industry is taking.  Many do not want to cut them any slack because of prior environmental damage they have committed.  Like you, I applaud anything the cruise lines are doing currently to help their crews and others who are in peril.  I still don't know in totality what is happening off the coast of Florida. 

 

In the last few days, my husband and I have received several emails from friends we met on Seabourn cruises, bemoaning the current situation, sending us photos they took of the two of us on SB cruises and saying that they look forward to the day we can be together again having fun onboard.  That is our wish as well.  We are all in this together--looking forward to happier relaxed times aboard Seabourn.  

[HappyFeet13]

I live in a high-rise on the waterfront in St. Petersburg, FL. with a great view of Tampa Bay. Tampa is the starting point for Caribbean cruises for about 4-5 cruise lines.  In the past few weeks, I have noticed cruise ships coming and going. They are obviously not carrying passengers. Wonder what they are doing? There is one right now, 5:26 pm Monday, heading out from Tampa toward the Gulf. The last one I saw going out, yesterday or the day before, was a Carnival ship...this one looks like Holland America. I guess there isn't enough room for all five of them at the port, so they take turns coming in, and they go out and sail around in circles a few days, then come back?  Wonder if that is going on everywhere in the world, at all cruise ship ports? I believe the crews are probably stuck aboard, as they would possibly be Covid carriers, or lack entry visas? Does anyone know?

[HappyFeet13]

Found out cruise lines and ships based in Tampa  for the season:

 

Carnival Cruise Line’s Carnival Paradise and Carnival Miracle.

Royal Caribbean Brilliance of the Seas, and Rhapsody of the Seas.

Norwegian Cruise Line’s Norwegian Dawn

Celebrity Cruises’ Celebrity Constellation

Holland America Line’s , Veendam

[bigmjh]

13 minutes ago, HappyFeet13 said:

I live in a high-rise on the waterfront in St. Petersburg, FL. with a great view of Tampa Bay. Tampa is the starting point for Caribbean cruises for about 4-5 cruise lines.  In the past few weeks, I have noticed cruise ships coming and going. They are obviously not carrying passengers. Wonder what they are doing? There is one right now, 5:26 pm Monday, heading out from Tampa toward the Gulf. The last one I saw going out, yesterday or the day before, was a Carnival ship...this one looks like Holland America. I guess there isn't enough room for all five of them at the port, so they take turns coming in, and they go out and sail around in circles a few days, then come back?  Wonder if that is going on everywhere in the world, at all cruise ship ports? I believe the crews are probably stuck aboard, as they would possibly be Covid carriers, or lack entry visas? Does anyone know?

A lot of ships are still carrying crews and subsequently require that they dock to re-provision the ship, take on fuel, etc. Crews are not allowed to disembark due to a variety of restrictions that have been imposed on them by our ports and also by their home countries which prevent them from flying home.

[DWF]

I just received an email they are canceling through June 30th including our May departure from Lisbon.  Same terms as before 125% in credits or 100% cash refund.

[zelker]

We received it from our TA as well.  Now we can cancel and get in line for that refund.  

[jozi]

1 hour ago, DWF said:

I just received an email they are canceling through June 30th including our May departure from Lisbon.  Same terms as before 125% in credits or 100% cash refund.

Glad to know early that it's not going to happen, still breaks my heart how much we took for granted looking forward to our trip that is no more. (June Reykjavik round trip Including upper Norway and Greenland). Given what's going on it's a pretty frivolous problem to have, we're very very lucky to be comfortable at home and grateful for the trips we've enjoyed so far and hopefully sometime again. 

[JodiandFrank]

And, now the lawsuits begin.  Another nail in the coffin for the cruise industry.....

https://apple.news/AyEFATlUzQNqU47vFqaiiXw

Edited April 15, 2020 by JodiandFrank

[ab21au]

... and there is a criminal investigation in AUS re the Ruby Princess which left Sydney on the 8th March. Why would you get on the Ruby Princess in March and put money before your life.  
 

We had cancelled our SB cruise 4 weeks before this. 

 

On the tv show Outbreak Unleashed, the guests from the ship want to blame anyone and everyone but take the blame themselves. While I feel truly sorry for the deaths, I do also think that the guests have to accept some of the blame for cruising at that time. 
 

The criminal investigation should be into the many deaths in the Dorothy Henderson Nursing Home which did not get any action until it was too late, they had no choice in the matter, the guests on the Ruby Princess did.   

 

 

[teamflames]

32 minutes ago, ab21au said:

... and there is a criminal investigation in AUS re the Ruby Princess which left Sydney on the 8th March. Why would you get on the Ruby Princess in March and put money before your life.  
 

We had cancelled our SB cruise 4 weeks before this. 

 

On the tv show Outbreak Unleashed, the guests from the ship want to blame anyone and everyone but take the blame themselves. While I feel truly sorry for the deaths, I do also think that the guests have to accept some of the blame for cruising at that time. 
 

The criminal investigation should be into the many deaths in the Dorothy Henderson Nursing Home which did not get any action until it was too late, they had no choice in the matter, the guests on the Ruby Princess did.   

 

 

I could be wrong but I don’t think the criminal investigation is in regards to the deaths of the passengers but the risk towards those in the public who were exposed because they weren’t informed of the risks?

[zimflyer]

1 hour ago, ab21au said:

... and there is a criminal investigation in AUS re the Ruby Princess which left Sydney on the 8th March. Why would you get on the Ruby Princess in March and put money before your life.  
 

 

Quote

 

Maybe because they trusted Princess or Carnival Corporation to do the right thing...!

 

Were they not already getting hyper vigilant after Diamond Princess in Japan.  Nope...$$$ keep cruising and end up with 4 or 5 Sister Ships passing it around.

 

That's the problem I and many others have... not just the cruise companies; many Corporations in this day and age just could not be bothered to do the right thing... life threatening or not.

 

Give me back the 1970s !

Edited April 15, 2020 by zimflyer
Update

[teamflames]

31 minutes ago, zimflyer said:

 

Maybe because they trusted Princess or Carnival Corporation to do the right thing...!

 

Were they not already getting hyper vigilant after Diamond Princess in Japan.  Nope...$$$ keep cruising and end up with 4 or 5 Sister Ships passing it around.

 

That's the problem I and many others have... not just the cruise companies; many Corporations in this day and age just could not be bothered to do the right thing... life threatening or not.

 

Give me back the 1970s !

I was born in the early 70s so not sure on the corporate responsibility back then but isn’t that when we put the hole in the ozone layer?

wasnt this when ddt and other chemicals and pesticides were rampant?

politically we had watergate?

[ab21au]

1 hour ago, teamflames said:

I could be wrong but I don’t think the criminal investigation is in regards to the deaths of the passengers but the risk towards those in the public who were exposed because they weren’t informed of the risks?

I agree that the general public should not have been exposed to guests from the ship but IMO, one would need to be xxxx not to be aware of the risks in boarding the ship on the 8th March. We had cancelled our late Feb cruise 1 month earlier. (Maybe we were lucky our friend who is a Dr in ICU at the Gold Coast hospital had told us by then how terrified she was if social distancing was not effective.  She did not want to be one of those who had to decide who would get a ventilator and who would die (as has happened around the world). 

[ab21au]

37 minutes ago, zimflyer said:

Maybe because they trusted Princess or Carnival Corporation to do the right thing...!

Maybe I’m being harsh, but in Outbreak Unleashed it seemed that everyone from the ship that was interviewed wanted to blame others and not take any blame for boarding in the first place. I am not saying that Carnival, the ship or the NSW health have no blame but they were in an uncommon situation and dealing with something that no one knew much about (other than China). I do agree that after what occurred with the Diamond Princess, more caution should have been taken. 

[teamflames]

8 minutes ago, ab21au said:

I agree that the general public should not have been exposed to guests from the ship but IMO, one would need to be xxxx not to be aware of the risks in boarding the ship on the 8th March. We had cancelled our late Feb cruise 1 month earlier. (Maybe we were lucky our friend who is a Dr in ICU at the Gold Coast hospital had told us by then how terrified she was if social distancing was not effective.  She did not want to be one of those who had to decide who would get a ventilator and who would die (as has happened around the world). 

I agree, we had our SB cruise cancelled on 10th March (for a sailing that would have happened tomorrow 😢). But I had already expressed on here that we were not prepared to sail anyway. The risks seemed obvious to us, especially after the Diamond. That is why I presume and hope that the investigation is not into whether they sailed and whether they put passengers at risk (they knew the risks) but should be focusing on the debarking and whether the company properly informed the authorities of the true health conditions onboard. I hope the investigation also delves into the various authorities and agencies and whether they made prudent decisions for the Australian public’s health given the known risks.

Interestingly I noticed there is a lawsuit in the US brought by the employees of Celebrity claiming the company didn’t do enough to protect them given the known risks. If successful that could cause some serious issues, haven’t heard anymore about the case brought against the Grand Princess by the passengers 

 

[jozi]

2 hours ago, ab21au said:

I agree that the general public should not have been exposed to guests from the ship but IMO, one would need to be xxxx not to be aware of the risks in boarding the ship on the 8th March. We had cancelled our late Feb cruise 1 month earlier. (Maybe we were lucky our friend who is a Dr in ICU at the Gold Coast hospital had told us by then how terrified she was if social distancing was not effective.  She did not want to be one of those who had to decide who would get a ventilator and who would die (as has happened around the world). 

Sadly people were still getting mixed messages as late as March 8. This a US mainstream news article from March 8 would lead one to think it wasn't a good idea but there wasn't leadership -- or news media--unanimity. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/08/us/politics/cruise-ship-warning.html?referringSource=articleShare

This is local Florida coverage March 9. Note attempt at contact tracing. 

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2020/03/09/vp-mike-pence-visiting-florida-to-say-cruise-travel-is-safe-may-have-been-exposed-to-coronavirus

Edited April 15, 2020 by jozi
Clarity