Zaandam and Rotterdam Situation (merged topics starting March 22, 2020)

[voyageur9]

2 minutes ago, Barney10 said:

This is a private island owned by Carnival. Not sure Bahamas has any powers over it,

Little San Salvador Island, (its proper name) is sovereign territory of The Bahamas. No foreign-flagged ship can even enter the 12-mile territorial waters without permission. Yes Carnival owns the island. Just like a corporation might own a big ranch in Texas. But the same corporation could not airlift thousands of people from abroad, including some non-citizens, to that ranch (especially if some were suspected of being infected with a potentially deadly and virulent disease) just by asserting ownership. Neither international maritime law nor domestic property law confers that kind of ability to usurp or ignore Bahamian territorial rights. 

[richwmn]

10 minutes ago, Barney10 said:

This is a private island owned by Carnival. Not sure Bahamas has any powers over it,

The area known as Half Moon Cay is leased by Holland America from the Bahamas. It is still part of the Bahamas and under their jurisdiction.

[sansterre]

Perhaps Key West and or Tampa might be considered as a port for the Zaandam.  

However, Tampa is not a possibility for some larger ships due to the height limit under the Sunshine Skyway - not sure about the Zaandam.

[rjbean4]

4 minutes ago, sansterre said:

Perhaps Key West and or Tampa might be considered as a port for the Zaandam.  

However, Tampa is not a possibility for some larger ships due to the height limit under the Sunshine Skyway - not sure about the Zaandam.

If this were to happen the Zaandam would have no problem making it under the Skyway Bridge. During the 2016-17 Season the Oosterdam sailed from TPA.

[CruiserBruce]

6 minutes ago, sansterre said:

Perhaps Key West and or Tampa might be considered as a port for the Zaandam.  

However, Tampa is not a possibility for some larger ships due to the height limit under the Sunshine Skyway - not sure about the Zaandam.

Key West? A remote area with limited resources, and long transport to more services? Doesn't sound smart to me.

[Hlitner]

4 hours ago, Captain_Morgan said:

 

 

Which is why i specifically acknowledged that the flu shot  is not a 'silver bullet' for the flu, but its at the very least a mitigating factor, which is more than what is currently in place for COVID-19.  Sure they're rolling out test kits now (better late than never?) but that doesn't solve the problem, it just confirms that the problem is more severe than the alternative, which in this case is to be expected that HAL refers to everything as 'flu like' despite the majority of people's minds going straight to COVID-19 the minute they hear about someone showing signs of illness.

 

As i say, here's hoping its just the flu but given the close contact and rapid transmission rate of the current bug it should come as no surprise to anyone that it might just be COVID.  Look at the Ruby Princess recently in Australia where they allowed everyone to just walk off despite some showing symptoms of illness and what happened?  The only way a quarantine works is if people are properly isolated which is next to impossible on a ship, hence the reason we're heearing about more and more ships across various brands being afflicted.  How many Marriott or Hilton hotels have been in the news for this?  Just some food for thought...

I have also heard some others compare hotels to cruise ships, but we think that is an apples to kumquats thing.  Most folks go to a hotel for one or two nights and do not necessarily eat and socialize in that hotel.  A cruise ship is its own destination and folks are essentially prisoners on a closed vehicle.  You cannot totally isolate on a ship.  A person with COVID-19 in a large hotel will not likely spread it like that same person on a ship who is constantly intermingling with hundreds of other folks.  The reality is that a cruise ship is the near perfect environment to spread any contagious disease and those of us who have cruised a long time can all relate personal stories of upper respiratory infections making their way through a ship, colds moving from person to person.   We take a lot of long cruises and will sometimes speak of a cruise as a "healthy ship" or  "sick ship."  In fact, many of us adopted a term called "cabin cough" which is a nasty upper respiratory infection that can take months to resolve.   But most frequent cruisers understand and willingly take this risk in order to satisfy our passion to cruise.  

 

But COVID-19 changes everything.  Even if we are willing to take our chances, the ports are not!  And this is a huge game changer from which the cruise industry is not likely to fully recover.  It is no longer just taking a risk of cabin cough, but now we must add the risk of being housed on a "prison ship" with a further risk of solitary confinement for days or even weeks.

 

Hank

[bouhunter]

Bahama's talk is a waste of time.  Corona or not, they aren't going to dump all those people on a barrren island.....   

[summer slope]

Key West is closing off to everyone except residents returning.

[Hlitner]

7 minutes ago, bouhunter said:

Bahama's talk is a waste of time.  Corona or not, they aren't going to dump all those people on a barrren island.....   

Agee!  I do not think we are ready to turn private islands into modern leper colonies.

 

Hank

[iancal]

I believe that Hlitner nailed it.  To think otherwise is to absent reality.

 

I would also include AI`s to a large degree in the analysis.  We spent the last five days of an extended Mexico trip at an  AI last week.   By the last two days my spouse, a former health care professional, was concerned.  We saw the same types of behaviour at the AI buffet as we have seen on cruise ship buffets.  Not good in these stressful times.  For most of the other 8 weeks we were staying in much smaller hotels and B&B`s.

Edited March 25, 2020 by iancal

[sail7seas]

Kudos to HAL for send Rotterdam.  WondrFUL. hopefully no infection will transfer to her crew in the process

 

 

 

[ducklite]

44 minutes ago, sansterre said:

Perhaps Key West and or Tampa might be considered as a port for the Zaandam.  

However, Tampa is not a possibility for some larger ships due to the height limit under the Sunshine Skyway - not sure about the Zaandam.

The Keys are closed.  They are putting deputies at the top of US 1 and SR 995.  Only those with proof of residency, home ownership, employment of trucks delivering goods and packages will be allowed through. The hotels have all been closed.  Key West is not an option.  I don't know if it would fit under SSB, but Hillsborough has one of the higher numbers of COVID-19 cases in the State and are not in the position to take on a bunch more sick people.  

[ducklite]

25 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Agee!  I do not think we are ready to turn private islands into modern leper colonies.

 

Hank

So let's send them to port in Philly.  

[ducklite]

32 minutes ago, summer slope said:

Key West is closing off to everyone except residents returning.

All of the Keys!  They are allowing residents and home owners, trucks carrying goods and packages (ie Amazon and UPS as well as semis with food and gas), and people who work in the Keys who have proof of employment.

[Copper10-8]

12 hours ago, sansterre said:

................................................

One more question:  I know that a ship cannot move without a medical doctor on board. What staff would they refer to that were on the Rotterdam along with tests and medical supplies?  Would there be other medical staff/nurses also on board the  Rotterdam, Oosterdam, and Eurodam?

 

 

The "S" and "R" class ships of HAL carry four medical personnel; one pax doctor (mostly now South African), one crew doctor (usually Filipino) and two nurses (South African, with still some U.S. and Canadians). With the Vista-class ships and up, a third nurse is added. Rotterdam, before heading south to meet up with Zaandam off Panama this coming Friday, rendezvoused with both Eurodam and Oosterdam off Baja California  and took on additional medical supplies, incl. COVID-19 testing kits, as well as medical staff (doctors and nurses) normally assigned to those ships. The plan is to transfer those doctors and nurses to Zaandam to augment the last-mentioned no doubt very busy medical staff and lighten the load a bit 

[3rdGenCunarder]

14 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I just wanted to comment on your last paragraph.  The "common flu" as you call it, kills as many as sixty thousand Americans in a year.  Sure, we have a flu vaccine....but about half the country does not even bother to get that vaccine.  They prefer to take their chances with a disease that kills tens of thousands every year.  If Dr. Fauci were to announce, tomorrow, that we had a good vaccine for COVID-19, it is likely that fewer then 1/2 of the population would even bother to get that shot.  And by the way, consider that it is likely that about half the passengers on a cruise have not had flu shots, pneumovax, etc.  This defeats the herd effect of vaccines and drastically increases the mortality/morbidity rates from many diseases.  Go figure.  When I worked for our state's Health Department our talented Secretary of Health told us that about half the folks apparently think its up to the other half to protect them!

 

Hank

 

29 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I have also heard some others compare hotels to cruise ships, but we think that is an apples to kumquats thing.  Most folks go to a hotel for one or two nights and do not necessarily eat and socialize in that hotel.  A cruise ship is its own destination and folks are essentially prisoners on a closed vehicle.  You cannot totally isolate on a ship.  A person with COVID-19 in a large hotel will not likely spread it like that same person on a ship who is constantly intermingling with hundreds of other folks.  The reality is that a cruise ship is the near perfect environment to spread any contagious disease and those of us who have cruised a long time can all relate personal stories of upper respiratory infections making their way through a ship, colds moving from person to person.   We take a lot of long cruises and will sometimes speak of a cruise as a "healthy ship" or  "sick ship."  In fact, many of us adopted a term called "cabin cough" which is a nasty upper respiratory infection that can take months to resolve.   But most frequent cruisers understand and willingly take this risk in order to satisfy our passion to cruise.  

 

But COVID-19 changes everything.  Even if we are willing to take our chances, the ports are not!  And this is a huge game changer from which the cruise industry is not likely to fully recover.  It is no longer just taking a risk of cabin cough, but now we must add the risk of being housed on a "prison ship" with a further risk of solitary confinement for days or even weeks.

 

Hank

 

I agree with your posts. Clearly written and, sadly, they make sense. I would love to see numbers on the "seasonal flu" to learn how many of those who die from it did NOT get the vaccine as opposed to those who did. Not everyone is able to get a vaccination, for example, immunocompromised people. But the rest of us should get it in order to maintain "herd immunity," as you said in another post. (Your public health background shows in your writing)

 

I disagree with only one point. When the Covid19 vaccine comes out, I think there will be a huge turnout to get it. It will be reminiscent of the Great TP Rush of a few weeks ago. Look at how many people are being turned away form test centers because they are asymptomatic and haven't had contact with a diagnosed patient. They want to be tested "just in case," as if a negative test one day means they're good to go and won't get infected when they stop at the supermarket on the way home from the test. 

 

As a former science teacher, I feel I should apologize on behalf of all of us who didn't manage to get students to understand some basic principles of biology. 

 

 

[Hlitner]

Geez, I do hope you are correct about most rushing to get vaccinated.  But a lifetime tells me otherwise.  The usual "crazies" will quickly come out of their holes with the all too typical rumors that a new vaccine will cause "leprosy,"  mental health issues, stunt your growth, harm future generations, etc.  And no vaccine is perfect or without some risk and the "crazies" will line up to exaggerate the risks of vaccination and ignore the benefits.  This is the way it has been with every vaccine including the flu, measles, whooping cough, pneumonia, etc. etc.  

 

But the flu remains one of the best examples.  If everyone who could get that vaccine did get that vaccine we would save tens of thousands of lives, just in the USA, every year.  While the vaccines are never perfect, they not only reduce infections but often help minimize the severity of those who do get the flu.  And with a high percentage of the population getting those shots we would get the amazing benefits of herd immunity.   Come to think of it, the cruise lines could probably eliminate a lot of onboard sickness by simply requiring every passenger to provide proof that they got a flu shot or cannot get a flu shot for medical reasons.  Once there is a vaccine for COVID-19 a similar policy would make sense.

 

Hank

[iancal]

Where we live in an area where  flu shots are free.  Not only that, you can get them at any pharmacy.  Each year we walk into our local Costco.  They have a desk at the front door.  They give you a form to fill out and ask you to head over to the pharmacy for your shot.  It is the same at many other pharmacies and stores that have a pharmacy.   The health authority visits every seniors home to do on site vaccinations.  Absolutely no reason for the majority of people to go to a physicians office for this.

 

Notwithstanding how easy and how convenient it is to get the flu shot we are still challenged with increasing the percentage of the population that gets a flu vaccination each year.

 

I have no doubt that when and if there is a vaccine available in sufficient numbers that there will be the same opportunity as there is with the flu shot.  And they will no doubt include all schools in in the program.

Edited March 25, 2020 by iancal

[sansterre]

48 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

 

The "S" and "R" class ships of HAL carry four medical personnel; one pax doctor (mostly now South African), one crew doctor (usually Filipino) and two nurses (South African, with still some U.S. and Canadians). With the Vista-class ships and up, a third nurse is added. Rotterdam, before heading south to meet up with Zaandam off Panama this coming Friday, rendezvoused with both Eurodam and Oosterdam off Baja California  and took on additional medical supplies, incl. COVID-19 testing kits, as well as medical staff (doctors and nurses) normally assigned to those ships. The plan is to transfer those doctors and nurses to Zaandam to augment the last-mentioned no doubt very busy medical staff and lighten the load a bit 

Thank you for that information!

I had not realized that there were actually two doctors on HAL ships.

Just to clarify, can we assume that one of the two doctors (passenger doctor or crew doctor) remained on the Eurodam, the Oosterdam, and will remain on the Rotterdam so those ships can continue to move.  

I would imagine one of the two nurses would remain on the "crew only" ships as well.

How fortunate that these medical personnel and materials are able to be shared with the Zaandam now in need.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by sansterre

[Copper10-8]

2 hours ago, Barney10 said:

This is a private island owned by Carnival. Not sure Bahamas has any powers over it,

 

A little background: In 1996 Holland America Line signed a 99-year lease agreement for U.S. $6 million with the Bahamian government for the use of Little San Salvador Island, aka Little Cat Island, and renamed it Half Moon Cay. The Bahamian government has always maintained Customs rights, as well as Police power over the island. Although there is no police station on HMC (if needed, a police constable will make the daily roundtrip from nearby inhabited Eleuthera Island on the Half Moon Clipper, the same ship that takes supplies to and from the island from the ships), a Bahamian Customs officer is always on hand when HAL and Carnival ships visit the island and he/she, upon the ship's arrival off HMC, will handle and approve the clearance paperwork (similar to any other port the ship calls on) with the ship's crew officer ("S" and "R" ships) or PPO (port paper officer - Vista class and above)    

Edited March 25, 2020 by Copper10-8

[bennybear]

And maybe actual screening and testing before boarding of passengers may eliminate the nasty cruise crud and spread of influenza......  looking for a silver lining.  

 

I am one one who regularly gets the flu shot, but became very ill with influenza on-board an early season Alaska cruise that had recently repositioned from Downunder and brought the new variation with it.  

[Copper10-8]

2 minutes ago, sansterre said:

Thank you for that information!

I had not realized that there were actually two doctors on HAL ships.

Just to clarify, can we assume that one of the two doctors (passenger doctor or crew doctor) remained on the Eurodam, the Oosterdam, and will remain on the Rotterdam so those ships can continue to move.  

I would imagine one of the two nurses would remain on the "crew only" ships as well.

 

 

 

Yes, at least one doctor and, more than likely, two nurses would have remained on Eurodam and Oosterdam to take care of the crew

[rjbean4]

So I just looked at the latest numbers and will see if this impacts the Zaandam with the current plans for her schedule for Ft. Lauderdale. Yes as  I mentioned earlier she can get under the Skyway Bridge but wonder if the increasing numbers here in FL will start to have a effect on ports closing. Our Govenor is now mandating anyone coming into Florida from NY, NJ, etc, that it is MANDITORY to self quarantine for 14 days or face significant consequences.

 

FLORIDA

Total Cases - 1,682

Monitoring - 1,439

Deaths - 22

 

TAMPA BAY AREA BY COUNTY  CONFIRMED CASES

Hillsborough - 106

Pinellas - 50

Sarasota - 27

Manatee - 22

Pasco - 17

Polk - 14

Citrus - 9

 

REGARDING SE  FLORIDA COUNTIES

Dade (Miami) - 400

Broward (Ft. Lauderdale)  - 355

Palm Beach - 118

 

Florida info can be found on this site which is being updated twice a day.

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/96dd742462124fa0b38ddedb9b25e429

[rjbean4]

Just found this so things are happening. Pinellas County now going into a stay at home order for us. There has been talk of this happening for Hillsborough too.

 

https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/pinellas-county-issues-safer-at-home-order-amid-coronavirus-pandemic/

 

Also want to share that yesterday noticed that the Noordam is now en route to San Diego based on her AIS.

Edited March 25, 2020 by rjbean4

[Tampa Girl]

16 hours ago, ducklite said:

Sorry, Miami-dace closed hotels by order of the Mayor.  
 

I still think that unless the Federal government can figure out a way to transport everyone on that ship Directly to a Government quarantine facility and medical facility without taking Existing Hospital beds from Floridians, we should not accept that ship.  

 

No one is arguing that the Zaandam passengers should not be quarantined, but it is quite possible to safely transfer everyone to either a hospital or other facility for the appropriate treatment and isolation.  They did so with the Diamond Princess passengers, and Florida, perhaps with the Feds, can do so in FLL.  These people need to be off the ship at the nearest port that will accept the ship and to be housed in a safe environment.