Security stops American crew member from disembarking Oosterdam in LA

[Tampa Girl]

10 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is the leading national public health institute of the United States. It is a United States federal agency, under the Department of Health and Human Services, and is headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia.

 

The CDC order that 25-yr old Club HAL coordinator on the Oosterdam, a U.S. National, decided to challenge in San Pedro/Port of L.A. two days ago:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships_Extension_4-9-20-encrypted.pdf

 

 The part that affects her and her co-workers, no matter which nationality, is on page 8, sub-section 1

 

Do I agree with it? Do I agree with the young lady's actions on April 28th? Those are two other questions

 

 

Sections 1.. 2., 3. of the CDC order provides that the USCG will approve disembarkation, in consultation with the CDC, .  The actual authorizing entity is the USCG, in coordination with the CDC and state and local officials.  In other words, the CDC is not the definitive authority and the approval for disembarkation requirements are not set in stone.  The USCG does have leeway.  The crew is probably more in danger of getting the virus once on land than the on land people getting it from the crew.  My reading of the CDC order is that the USCG, in coordination with the other entities could have approved disembarkation under whatever restrictive guidelines it deemed necessary, i.e. testing, quarantine, etc.  Were these alternatives considered?

 

As for the cost, multiply charter flights and other transportation required to deliver each crew member to his home town, by the number of crew on this ship (8) by all the the Carnival Corp. ships facing the same costs, and it is not a minor expense. 

[Copper10-8]

1 hour ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

 

Sections 1.. 2., 3. of the CDC order provides that the USCG will approve disembarkation, in consultation with the CDC, .  The actual authorizing entity is the USCG, in coordination with the CDC and state and local officials.  In other words, the CDC is not the definitive authority and the approval for disembarkation requirements are not set in stone......................

 

The CDC is the definitive authority on this order; it is signed by their director! Since they do not have representation at the ports, the USCG, which does, acts as their representatives

[Hlitner]

15 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, Hank, then I hope you have the same feelings for me, because as a US citizen, in a US port, I have been denied the ability to go ashore either to go home or just to visit a pharmacy to pick up a prescription, and it was not because of anything my company did, it was based on state and local regulations for the covid pandemic.  I've been denied shore leave at certain US ports for years, and it has only been in the last year that the USCG has stepped up to ensure enforcement of policies that ensure our rights to shore leave, overriding the terminals' claims of "security".  We have been denied crew changes for two months now, since most ports in the US do not allow any crew members to come ashore.

 

But, again, the crew on a foreign flag ship are a different case.  While your rights as a US citizen should not depend on the company's actions (and that is a stretch, given that the US has limited jurisdiction over the ship), you do agree that if you are in a foreign country that your rights as a US citizen are curtailed, right?  Being on a foreign flag ship is exactly the same.

If I ever ran into you ashore, the drinks would be on me :).   But then again, the bars are all closed :(.

 

Hank

[npcl]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Then you have to add in the cost of a bus to the charter aircraft, clearance for the charter aircraft to load and unload passengers outside "a public terminal" (even a FBO terminal), and private transportation from the destination airport to the crew member's home.

Actually you would fly into small airports (easy to do on a corporate charter and have the private transport pick you up at the steps of the plane.  No terminal no additional.  You would also fly them to the absolute closest airport to their home, not the closest major teminal so ground transportation costs would be low.  I intentionally used the worst possible flight time case (that is how charters are billed by flight hour) to determine costs, any grouping and the price drops considerable.  

 

For example when we would fly to Atlanta (the city the crew member mentioned) we would fly into Fulton County - Brown Field, not into Hartsfield.  No messing with the issues of large airports.

[npcl]

2 hours ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

 

Sections 1.. 2., 3. of the CDC order provides that the USCG will approve disembarkation, in consultation with the CDC, .  The actual authorizing entity is the USCG, in coordination with the CDC and state and local officials.  In other words, the CDC is not the definitive authority and the approval for disembarkation requirements are not set in stone.  The USCG does have leeway.  The crew is probably more in danger of getting the virus once on land than the on land people getting it from the crew.  My reading of the CDC order is that the USCG, in coordination with the other entities could have approved disembarkation under whatever restrictive guidelines it deemed necessary, i.e. testing, quarantine, etc.  Were these alternatives considered?

 

As for the cost, multiply charter flights and other transportation required to deliver each crew member to his home town, by the number of crew on this ship (8) by all the the Carnival Corp. ships facing the same costs, and it is not a minor expense. 

You do not do multiple charter flights.  As long as all are in the same medical status you daisy chain across the country, via a rout to minimize flight time. For 8 passengers it would be 1 charter flight, with up to 8 stops for 8 passengers.  Not minor, but not excessive when it comes to getting an employee off of the ship and home.

 

The  USCG is acting as the enforcement agent.  The government regulation that gives the CDC power to use the USCG is one of the one listed in the April 15 order.

 

The cruise line was unwilling to sign the certifications so it really doesn't matter what else was considered. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by npcl

[bluesea321]

On 4/30/2020 at 6:06 AM, Dr.Dobro said:

Crew member Melinda Mann's Facebook page, with more video:

https://www.facebook.com/denmarkblue?__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARC4cYR7hPZ5m7VYnPRjTn2Y1dIdnPtJwfwav7z8IuLBygOyZstNRciXzQqV1JWEwpcJHwQMcEdB_yYn&hc_ref=ARRig_jSQXR652WU7o_0CueWidXvJgAC5cvViRWrxAXf9wdXjbg9KYz5JRQ_0-PoLNw&fref=nf

 

She posted additional details earlier today and while I feel for her, she does not fully understand what is going on between HAL and the CDC.  As stated on this thread, her rights as an American citizen became severely limited when she boarded a foreign flag ship.

 

She and the other Americans could be home now if HAL (CCL) had agreed to private transport.  CCL had been willing to do so for passengers but apparently not for crew now.  Her predicament made the NBC Evening News last night and I wonder about the bad publicity.  Congress has now started an investigation:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242434451.html?

[mamaofami]

Over the years, I have noticed that Copper John is rarely wrong and when he is he admits it immediately.

[HamOp]

35 minutes ago, mamaofami said:

Over the years, I have noticed that Copper John is rarely wrong and when he is he admits it immediately.

He is most certainly  a man of honor and knowledge.  

[cccole]

29 minutes ago, HamOp said:

He is most certainly  a man of honor and knowledge.  

 

1 hour ago, mamaofami said:

Over the years, I have noticed that Copper John is rarely wrong and when he is he admits it immediately.

It is amazingly sunny at the beach today and possibly it is a reflection from Copper10-8's helo.  It is well deserved!!  Cherie

[CruiserBruce]

3 hours ago, cccole said:

 

It is amazingly sunny at the beach today and possibly it is a reflection from Copper10-8's helo.  It is well deserved!!  Cherie

Now he has a helo? I only thought he had  halo!!!😁

[cccole]

10 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Now he has a helo? I only thought he had  halo!!!😁

Ha, ha.  I should have proofed my post.  But, maybe he does have a "helo."  Sorry for the mistake.  Cherie

[Copper10-8]

1 hour ago, cccole said:

Ha, ha.  I should have proofed my post.  But, maybe he does have a "helo."  Sorry for the mistake.  Cherie

 

😁 

 

[JRG]

On 4/30/2020 at 1:43 PM, chengkp75 said:

Why did this happen, and why did Carnival not provide the attestation?  Because there were only 8 US crew, and the company would have had to provide private transportation from the ship to their home doorsteps.  Most likely they could not have even availed themselves of a single charter flight, since they likely came from various cities around the US.

 

If Carnival instructed the Captain to not file the attestation because they couldn't afford to provide transportation,   and I have no reason to think otherwise,    then there may be simple solution at hand.    

 

Think back to the evacuation of Dunkirk.   The citizens of the UK came together and saved their army by using their personal resources (their boats) to save the day and live to fight another day.

 

Since we are all in this together,  ask yourself how can the citizens of the US come together (using their resources) and save the day?

 

The simple answer is to have the Captains get on the Internet and start the GO****ME process to raise the necessary funds,  on a ship by ship basis,  so that  U.S.  Citizens can get home.   Whether by charter flights or rental car.

 

I know that Cruise Critic does not allow this process to originate from its forums,  but maybe they could make an exception in this case.   If not,  then somebody needs to take the bull by the horns and start the process externally from CC.

 

 

I can't remember who said it but I bet he was Irish-American.

 

"Ask not what your country can do for you,   ask what you can do for your country "   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited May 2, 2020 by JRG

[billbunger]

4 hours ago, JRG said:

 

The simple answer is to have the Captains get on the Internet and start the GO****ME process to raise the necessary funds,  on a ship by ship basis,  so that  U.S.  Citizens can get home.   Whether by charter flights or rental car.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Now this is just getting plain silly.

[Roger88]

I feel so sad for them, but this is the reality we live in right now

It’s probably so hard to be locked up on that ship without any help coming

I really hope they are doing alright right now and they will get back home very soon.

Hope they get all the support possible from their families

Take care guys! NJ is with you!

 

[rafinmd]

Could she rent an apartment in Los Angeles or San Diego and file a change of address?

 

Roy

[JRG]

Could she (or family supporters) rent a small craft and have it request a MEDEVAC ship to ship dock transfer under a protocol that is commensurate with how the general public is being treated.   That would be the arms lengths test of reasonableness for having a Captain stick his neck out.

 

Have it done under the guidance of CDC present regs so the Captain could prove that this transfer was no more dangerous to Society than anybody who had previously stepped off a cruise ship or a plane.

 

Of course the Captain is going to piss somebody off.   But if he had the mean$$$ to ensure such a small craft transfer is feasible,   then he should have to balance that risk against the cost of facing future consequences.    This is why he is the Captain.  However,  if he is not aware of all of the tools ithat are in the $hed, then it would be an second officer who would need to make him aware of such a resource as the Internet.

 

I'd give it to LA County Sheriffs and the Harbor Patrol Division to expedite along with USCG.  And depending on where the ship is right now,  maybe use the same services from Orange County or San Diego.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by JRG

[Copper10-8]

16 minutes ago, JRG said:

Could she (or family supporters) rent a small craft and have it request a MEDEVAC ship to ship dock transfer under a protocol that is commensurate with how the general public is being treated.   That would be the arms lengths test of reasonableness for having a Captain stick his neck out.

 

Have it done under the guidance of CDC present regs so the Captain could prove that this transfer was no more dangerous to Society than anybody who had previously stepped off a cruise ship or a plane.

 

Of course the Captain is going to piss somebody off.   But if he had the mean$$$ to ensure such a small craft transfer is feasible,   then he should have to balance that risk against the cost of facing future consequences.    This is why he is the Captain.  However,  if he is not aware of all of the tools ithat are in the $hed, then it would be an second officer who would need to make him aware of such a resource as the Internet.

 

I'd give it to LA County Sheriffs and the Harbor Patrol Division to expedite along with USCG.  And depending on where the ship is right now,  maybe use the same services from Orange County or San Diego.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oosterdam is on her way back to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico after having transferred her non-Asian crew incl., I presume, the Youth Coordinator, to Koningsdam off Ensenada. Mexico. Koningsdam is still loitering near that same Ensenada

 

And as a heads up, you do know that LASD's Harbor Patrol is based out of Marina Del Rey, north of LAX, and that the L.A. (City) Port Police has jurisdiction over the port of L.A./San Pedro

[JRG]

Copy that. 

 

 

 

[Aquahound]

On 5/1/2020 at 8:08 AM, Copper10-8 said:

 

The CDC is the definitive authority on this order; it is signed by their director! Since they do not have representation at the ports, the USCG, which does, acts as their representatives

 

Correct.  The CDC guidelines have been incorporated in to the USCG's COTP orders.  Violations of the COTP orders, if pursued, would be by USCG's criminal investigative arm; CGIS.  

[JRG]

Yes, copy that too

[bluesea321]

Here is the attestation that the cruise lines must provide prior to disembarking crew members.  The CDC is serious and I would be surprised if they blink.

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/Attestation-for-Non-Commercial-Travel-Pre-Approval-of-NSO-Response-Plan_042320_final_fillable-p.pdf

 

This is doable but no doubt at a cost.  Per the Miami Herald:

"Using this process, so far Virgin Voyages has disembarked eight Americans from its Scarlet Lady ship, Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings has disembarked five Americans from its Seven Seas Mariner ship and 346 Filipinos from its Norwegian Joy ship, Carnival Corporation has disembarked three Ecuadorians from its Coral Princess ship and 193 Argentines and Peruvians from its Caribbean Princess ship, Disney Cruise Line has disembarked two Americans from its Disney Fantasy and Disney Magic ships, and Bahamas Paradise Cruise Lines has disembarked 27 Hondurans from its Grand Celebration ship, according to the CDC."

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242443236.html

[bluesea321]

This story made Good Morning America today:

 

https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/news/video/american-cruise-ship-workers-stuck-sea-due-coronavirus-70448861?fbclid=IwAR2sugsQIJoY6Dtax1Xz12aTB67R3jhmFPiVd-oS6UXdodGNE2ib6Uts2jY

[Tampa Girl]

20 hours ago, bluesea321 said:

Here is the attestation that the cruise lines must provide prior to disembarking crew members.  The CDC is serious and I would be surprised if they blink.

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/Attestation-for-Non-Commercial-Travel-Pre-Approval-of-NSO-Response-Plan_042320_final_fillable-p.pdf

 

You may well be right that they won't blink.  However, regulations are modifiable, and this one is heavy-handed and discriminatory toward the cruiselines.  Incoming airlines from other countries, also rife with COVID.19, have no such responsibility.  I hope that this is challenged but do not have any expectation that it will happen.  

 

[bluesea321]

Good news.  Looks like HAL is finally "accepting" the CDC order.  This is not a done deal but from the Facebook page of the American in question (the topic of this thread):

 

"Update: Well, I've been at sea for 50 days without setting foot on land. That is a crazy long time for a civilian.

My company [HAL/CCL] is looking at charter flights to get me [all of the Americans] home. It is difficult because I am a resident on the East Coast, and my ship is on the West Coast. If they do book it, and the CDC does approve it, I will be leaving May 8th. This is all tentative for now."