FCO advises against all cruise travel, today

[Denarius]

14 minutes ago, AnnieC said:

Where have I heard that before?😟

1914 perhaps.

[terrierjohn]

20 minutes ago, davecttr said:

It will all be over by xmas, apparently

Boris has given it 9 months, then he is going to get really angry with it.

[Denarius]

6 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

I can't remember the exact figures, but I think the cruise industry adds around £10bn to the UK economy, and accounts for several thousand (maybe 40,000 from memory) jobs.  So could be quite an influential lobby to the FCO.

I suspect a relevant factor in this is that most of the companies offering ocean cruises to the British public are not British. Like P&O they are part of overseas (mainly US) companies, so their demise would not engender headlines of "another major UK company goes bust." Also, the majority of their employees - specifically most of those on the ships - are neither UK citizens nor residents, so the loss of their jobs would have only a small direct effect on UK unemploymet figures. We know of course that indirect job losses would be considerably higher, but its direct losses which make the headlines.

[AnnieC]

24 minutes ago, Denarius said:

1914 perhaps.

And that went well, didn't it?😉

[Roger88]

I wouldnt be pushing it but I always stand for what you want. If cruisng is something you have been desiring then dont limit yourself and just go take a cruise. I mean I understand that it might be dangerous in a way but that dangerous to avoid it completly. In any case, I a, sure you have already decided for yourself what to do with your vacation 

[mercury7289]

We have got a Baltic cruise as part of a B2B next year on Aurora.

 

Been following covid, new cases, at the various ports of call.

 

We are due to overnight at St Petersbugh, we have been before.

 

Strange figures on Russian new cases, they have reported, figures in and around 6500 per day, for the last 14 days!

 

How are they managing to keep a lid on it?

 

[wowzz]

14 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

I can't remember the exact figures, but I think the cruise industry adds around £10bn to the UK economy, and accounts for several thousand (maybe 40,000 from memory) jobs.  So could be quite an influential lobby to the FCO.

Just seen a news report  saying that the UK  coach holiday business contributes £7bn to the UK economy. (No idea who calculated the figures)

However, if the numbers are roughly right, I think we should all take coach holidays in the future! British companies  ( no offshore Bermuda coach firms), using British drivers and couriers,  staying in British hotels. 

OK, perhaps I'm overdoing the British angle a bit, but the £10bn figure quoted by the cruise line industry,  that pays virtually no tax, is not that great compared to a £7bn industry  that is subject to the rigors of the British taxation system.

[molecrochip]

Please don’t confuse ships being registered under a flag of convenience with cruise ship companies not paying tax.

 

Carnival is dual UK US listed and pays tax in both jurisdictions. Indeed for every UK employee, Carnival pays an additional 13.8% of their salary to UK government as tax.

[mercury7289]

7 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

Please don’t confuse ships being registered under a flag of convenience with cruise ship companies not paying tax.

 

Carnival is dual UK US listed and pays tax in both jurisdictions. Indeed for every UK employee, Carnival pays an additional 13.8% of their salary to UK government as tax.

How many UK employees?

Dilutes the issue slightly!

[Harry Peterson]

6 hours ago, molecrochip said:

Please don’t confuse ships being registered under a flag of convenience with cruise ship companies not paying tax.

 

Carnival is dual UK US listed and pays tax in both jurisdictions. Indeed for every UK employee, Carnival pays an additional 13.8% of their salary to UK government as tax.

Carnival pays some taxes, as almost all tax avoiding companies do.  If it based all of its operation in Liberia, Nassau or wherever, it would struggle to operate in the way that it does, with large numbers of customers from the US and Europe.

 

But by registering the ships in tax havens it avoids a huge amount of tax and allows itself to pay pittance wages to the vast majority of its staff.  It has a very small proportion of UK staff, and it pays the usual UK taxes on those staff.

[amfc_lenny]

Hmm, Costa have published their restart plans

 

https://crew-center.com/costa-cruises-plans-re-start-voyages-7-ships-5-phases

 

doesn’t look optimistic news for those booked for the p&o this autumn! ☹️

[Snow Hill]

Appears both Carnival & RCL got access to British taxpayer funded bailouts in form of a loan facility.

 

https://www.taxwatchuk.org/boe_bailout_cruise_lines/
 
The Times today criticises the deal given both companies low tax payments in UK (behind paywalls) 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/low-tax-cruise-operators-sail-off-with-cheap-virus-loans-gbd9xflx3

Edited July 18, 2020 by Snow Hill

[molecrochip]

Carnival announced in their analysts call that they received $700m of UK government loans. They also received furlough support for U.K. HQ staff.

[molecrochip]

I’m not going into the details but Carnival UK pays tax in line with the U.K. Tonnage Tax rules for all ships strategically controlled and managed in the UK. This is not connected to the flag that the ship uses.

Britannia, Iona, and a number of Princess ships (specifically sisters of Britannia) are all flagged in the UK. These are some of the newest largest ships in the fleet. If it made a major difference surely they would have also been flagged in the Bermuda,

 

Additionally the safety rules in Bermuda are the same as the UK which is why Carnival U.K. historically use Hamilton, Bermuda not Panama. Aida and Costa register their ships in Genoa, Italy - hardly a tax haven!

 

Its too easy to brandish a whole corporation as at ‘fault’.

I suggest reading pages 20 and 21 of the 2019 accounts to understand what is in scope. It includes all ships operated for P&O Australia for example.

 

UK employment taxes do apply to crew predominant undertaking duties outside the U.K. This is the application of UK law not avoidance of it.

 

I acknowledge that there is an advantage for Carnival Corp to be registered in Panama instead of the US but no more UK tax would be due In any advent.

 

There are also other issues at play. For example, the inability to conduct Weddings on board UK flagged cruise ships. I’d suggest that if Weddings were possible then the entire P&O U.K. fleet would be flagged in Southampton.

[jeanlyon]

15 hours ago, mercury7289 said:

We have got a Baltic cruise as part of a B2B next year on Aurora.

 

Been following covid, new cases, at the various ports of call.

 

We are due to overnight at St Petersbugh, we have been before.

 

Strange figures on Russian new cases, they have reported, figures in and around 6500 per day, for the last 14 days!

 

How are they managing to keep a lid on it?

 

They tell lies - their death rate bears no resemblance to their case numbers.

[jeanlyon]

Interesting to read that Fred O is buying 2 ships from Holland America.  Maybe my cruising days are not over.  Lovely smaller ships.

[grapau27]

13 minutes ago, jeanlyon said:

Interesting to read that Fred O is buying 2 ships from Holland America.  Maybe my cruising days are not over.  Lovely smaller ships.

HAL Amsterdam and Rotterdam moving to Fred Olsen.

[jeanlyon]

Very interesting.  Fred must be doing ok.  I expect Boudicca and Black Watch will go.

[Bazrat]

Looked at Fred Olsen prices not for me I prefer to take multiple holidays in a year

[jeanlyon]

I have had some good deals with Fred in the past.  Will wait to see what is on offer with the new ships.

[Adawn47]

6 minutes ago, Bazrat said:

Looked at Fred Olsen prices not for me I prefer to take multiple holidays in a year

They are eye-watering aren't they? I was thinking it's because they carry less passengers

Avril 

[Bazrat]

47 minutes ago, Adawn47 said:

They are eye-watering aren't they? I was thinking it's because they carry less passengers

Avril 

Even with there deals my beloved said no, but than again we like p&o and not bothered about the size of the ships

[wowzz]

1 hour ago, jeanlyon said:

Very interesting.  Fred must be doing ok.  I expect Boudicca and Black Watch will go.

Already announced that they will ge going.

[jeanlyon]

Oh didn't see that.  Thanks.  With 2 cruises booked on Aurora next year, it won't be for a while and I very much doubt if we will be going on the April one.

[wowzz]

Just had an email from my travel insurance company, stating  that "For any trips booked under your current policy you will now have cover for Coronavirus related claims, unless at the time of booking your trip there is something to suggest that it is unlikely to go ahead. "

Comoany is "Insure and Go"