No sail order extended to October 31st.

[bikerunner]

6 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

Really?  My state has 1/3 of hospital beds occupied with people I'll either from COVID OR some 3 dozen complications such as permanent lung damage, loss of cognitive brain function and a long list of others.  

Meaningless cases?  Really?  I have no idea which case might be one causing injury or death.  Evidently you do.  COVID is like playing roulette.  You never know when you get 00 and die or 0 and have a life changing injury.

As for overwhelmed - hospitals nearby are normally almost empty.  In November when the snowbirds return along with the flu beds are often at capacity until Spring.  Add a COVID load and we will be back to shipping people to other states like we did in July and August.  Scary.

AZ did not handle it I assume well.  I am in NH system and we have 25 beds out of 2200 beds occupied as of Tuesday.  I work for Dhmc and get the stats every week.  

[Arizona Wildcat]

25 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, given that HHS, above Azar's signature, has released new regulations regarding "quarantinable infectious diseases", that create strict regulations on the old broad powers to quarantine or disallow people from entering the US, and which name the CDC as executive agency, and that deals with cruise ships, and with an effective date of Oct 13th, I think CDC is quite happy with the extension only running to the 31st.

 

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/09/11/2020-20036/control-of-communicable-diseases-foreign-quarantine-suspension-of-the-right-to-introduce-and

Thank you for posting.  A couple things I noticed - the document is huge and sometimes technical - are that foreign nationals can be banned from entry until the pandemic declaration is rescinded.  This could pose issues for non US citizens.  It also seems the economic impact is supposidly under $100M.  Hmmmm.

Last - a number of those that are minimizing COVID should take an hour and read this document.  It is conservative in its numbers actually understating hospital and ICU beds occupied by COVID patients in Arizona.

Last can we move on with the debate about if the Royal Caribbean/NCL document is a detailed plan or not?  It is a great outline and hopefully Friday can be turned into a final complete plan.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Arizona Wildcat

[tiggy85]

Look like Carnival is going for a soft start in November. It might be the best way to “test the waters” of cruising during a pandemic. Curious what X will do...

Edited October 1, 2020 by tiggy85

[alwaysonaship]

38 minutes ago, bikerunner said:

AZ did not handle it I assume well.  I am in NH system and we have 25 beds out of 2200 beds occupied as of Tuesday.  I work for Dhmc and get the stats every week.  

Arizona did not do it well. I live here, and it is a joke. We just stay home.

[Baron Barracuda]

Axios was first to report on this latest extension.  Reading their article brings me to a different conclusion vs what is being reported elsewhere.  I don't see CDC granting a firm re-start date of 10/31.  Redfield recommended a five month extension which Pence felt was too long.  The "compromise" was  a one month extension to 10/31 and then re-assess and add further extensions as warranted.  The group will meet again tomorrow to review plans and discuss extensions.  So instead of a firm 5 month extension we could ultimately get 1 or 3 or 5 or 10 one month ones.

 

From Axios:

 

What's next: Instead of following Redfield's desire — which a number of White House officials have argued is unreasonable — the Trump administration plans to extend the no-sail order for cruise ships until October 31. (That matches the endpoint of the cruise industry's self-imposed ban.)

• The administration hopes that between now and then, the cruise industry can demonstrate it has a plan to ensure "ships can sail in a safe and responsible manner and that the companies assume the burden of dealing with any possible outbreaks," said a task force member involved in the talks.
• Representatives of the cruise industry are set to meet with the Trump administration on Friday to "describe their transformation and dozens of ways that they will mitigate risk and ensure public health," according to a White House official.
• "And in that meeting there will be a discussion and afterwards a decision will need to be made about whether the order needs to be extended," the White House official added. "These things can be extended for a month and then we can reassess the conditions on an ongoing basis."

https://www.axios.com/scoop-white-house-overruled-cdc-cruise-ships-florida-91442136-1b8e-442e-a2a1-0b24e9a39fb6.html

[radarcruiser]

1 hour ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

Really?  My state has 1/3 of hospital beds occupied with people I'll either from COVID OR some 3 dozen complications such as permanent lung damage, loss of cognitive brain function and a long list of others.  

Meaningless cases?  Really?  I have no idea which case might be one causing injury or death.  Evidently you do.  COVID is like playing roulette.  You never know when you get 00 and die or 0 and have a life changing injury.

As for overwhelmed - hospitals nearby are normally almost empty.  In November when the snowbirds return along with the flu beds are often at capacity until Spring.  Add a COVID load and we will be back to shipping people to other states like we did in July and August.  Scary.

I see you location is listed as Frostbite Falls.  Perhaps you could ask Mr Peabody to get Sherman to set the WABAC machine to 2019 so we can go cruising again.  
 

Edited October 1, 2020 by radarcruiser

[MarkWiltonM]

My family will begin cruising again when WE decide it's safe to cruise, based on the best available scientific information, not when the White House or CDC or the cruise lines tell us it's safe. 

[pumpkin 11]

1 hour ago, LGW59 said:

Cases...which are meaningless???  Not if those "meaningless" cases result in a death, in my state, 10 - 20 people are still dying from COVID each day!!!  Not meaningless if you are a family...YOU are clueless!

The death rate is so low... how many people normally die in your state daily? I’m so over this BS. Cases are meanIngless with so many false positives.

 

thats why you look at statistics of deaths and hospitalizations not cases. Yes some people will die of the flu, aids ect. 
 

what would have been useful is if the government said hey” it seems like obesity is a comorbidity that is an issue with covid 19, let’s all loose some weight!” Your avg American could have lost 20 pounds or so in 6 months it’s been since the beginning.

 

BUT NO! instead we have people running around with their McDonalds bag and cigarettes in hand telling me I’m putting their health at risk by not wearing a mask. Cut the crap this is all theater 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by pumpkin 11

[pumpkin 11]

3 minutes ago, MarkWiltonM said:

My family will begin cruising again when WE decide it's safe to cruise, based on the best available scientific information, not when the White House or CDC or the cruise lines tell us it's safe. 

Is anyone disputing your right to do so?

[radarcruiser]

9 minutes ago, MarkWiltonM said:

My family will begin cruising again when WE decide it's safe to cruise, based on the best available scientific information, not when the White House or CDC or the cruise lines tell us it's safe. 

Actually you can only make that decision AFTER the White House and or CDC have allowed cruising to begin.   That’s the rub here.  If you don’t feel safe cruising, don’t go.  Just don’t let YOUR unease determine MY ability to make a decision to cruise again.  

[C-Dragons]

1 hour ago, tiggy85 said:

Look like Carnival is going for a soft start in November. It might be the best way to “test the waters” of cruising during a pandemic. Curious what X will do...

 

Something very similar. Waiting for X to make the announcement.

Edited October 1, 2020 by C-Dragons

[nocl]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, given that HHS, above Azar's signature, has released new regulations regarding "quarantinable infectious diseases", that create strict regulations on the old broad powers to quarantine or disallow people from entering the US, and which name the CDC as executive agency, and that deals with cruise ships, and with an effective date of Oct 13th, I think CDC is quite happy with the extension only running to the 31st.

 

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/09/11/2020-20036/control-of-communicable-diseases-foreign-quarantine-suspension-of-the-right-to-introduce-and

Not sure why you consider this final regulation to have any bearing on the issue if CDC will retain the ability to be the final approving authority  for cruise ships.  Technically this rule does not give CDC any authority that it has not already used.  It simple make specific what was covered in general prior to this rule.

 

This regulation deals with restrictions from foreign countries or geographic areas.  

 

While it references a number of actions that the CDC has taken which includes no sail orders, those are in the policy rationale and factual basis section.

 

We will see what comes out of the meetings between the Committee and the cruise lines and see how much authority the CDC is allowed to execute.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, Baron Barracuda said:

Axios was first to report on this latest extension.  Reading their article brings me to a different conclusion vs what is being reported elsewhere.  I don't see CDC granting a firm re-start date of 10/31.  Redfield recommended a five month extension which Pence felt was too long.  The "compromise" was  a one month extension to 10/31 and then re-assess and add further extensions as warranted.  The group will meet again tomorrow to review plans and discuss extensions.  So instead of a firm 5 month extension we could ultimately get 1 or 3 or 5 or 10 one month ones.

 

From Axios:

 

What's next: Instead of following Redfield's desire — which a number of White House officials have argued is unreasonable — the Trump administration plans to extend the no-sail order for cruise ships until October 31. (That matches the endpoint of the cruise industry's self-imposed ban.)

• The administration hopes that between now and then, the cruise industry can demonstrate it has a plan to ensure "ships can sail in a safe and responsible manner and that the companies assume the burden of dealing with any possible outbreaks," said a task force member involved in the talks.
• Representatives of the cruise industry are set to meet with the Trump administration on Friday to "describe their transformation and dozens of ways that they will mitigate risk and ensure public health," according to a White House official.
• "And in that meeting there will be a discussion and afterwards a decision will need to be made about whether the order needs to be extended," the White House official added. "These things can be extended for a month and then we can reassess the conditions on an ongoing basis."

https://www.axios.com/scoop-white-house-overruled-cdc-cruise-ships-florida-91442136-1b8e-442e-a2a1-0b24e9a39fb6.html

Another section of the same article.  Last time I looked up the definition of compromise as a noun it was

 

an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.

 

Based upon the report there does not seem to be agreement, but instead one side dictating the end result to the other. Kind of like a subordinate presenting a plan, and their Boss deciding the end result. Compromise would indicate that both negotiated a solution that both agreed with.  Certainly not the tone represented in the article

 

Though one could use the other definition as a verb which might be a better fit

 

accept standards that are lower than is desirable

 

Behind the scenes: In a meeting of the Trump administration's coronavirus task force today in the Situation Room, Redfield argued that the government's ban on cruise ships, which expires on Wednesday, should be extended until February 2021 because of the virus' severity and the vulnerability for spread on cruises.

• Vice President Mike Pence, who chaired today's meeting, told Redfield that they would be proceeding with a different plan, according to two task force members.

 

[MarkWiltonM]

1 hour ago, radarcruiser said:

Actually you can only make that decision AFTER the White House and or CDC have allowed cruising to begin.   That’s the rub here.  If you don’t feel safe cruising, don’t go.  Just don’t let YOUR unease determine MY ability to make a decision to cruise again.  

I don't have any power over your decisions, so I don't understand how my unease would affect you. My point is simply that even if a government agency lifts restrictions on cruising, none of us have to cruise until we individually decide we feel it's safe and we want to. As an example, there have been numerous instances of restaurants reopening in some states with very few diners  showing up anyway. If a government rushes to reopen cruising for political/economic reasons, that doesn't guarantee there will be enough demand to make cruising profitable for the cruise lines.

[radarcruiser]

5 minutes ago, MarkWiltonM said:

I don't have any power over your decisions, so I don't understand how my unease would affect you. My point is simply that even if a government agency lifts restrictions on cruising, none of us have to cruise until we individually decide we feel it's safe and we want to. As an example, there have been numerous instances of restaurants reopening in some states with very few diners  showing up anyway. If a government rushes to reopen cruising for political/economic reasons, that doesn't guarantee there will be enough demand to make cruising profitable for the cruise lines.

Fair enough.  Stay safe. 

[Baron Barracuda]

28 minutes ago, nocl said:

Another section of the same article.  Last time I looked up the definition of compromise as a noun it was

 

an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.

 

Based upon the report there does not seem to be agreement, but instead one side dictating the end result to the other. Kind of like a subordinate presenting a plan, and their Boss deciding the end result. Compromise would indicate that both negotiated a solution that both agreed with.  Certainly not the tone represented in the article

 

Though one could use the other definition as a verb which might be a better fit

 

accept standards that are lower than is desirable

 

Behind the scenes: In a meeting of the Trump administration's coronavirus task force today in the Situation Room, Redfield argued that the government's ban on cruise ships, which expires on Wednesday, should be extended until February 2021 because of the virus' severity and the vulnerability for spread on cruises.

• Vice President Mike Pence, who chaired today's meeting, told Redfield that they would be proceeding with a different plan, according to two task force members.

 

That's why I put quotes around "compromise".  Hate to be put in position of defending Pence, but considering during the 6 months cruising has been on hold much progress has been made on testing, therapeutics and vaccines why decide today to continue lock down for 5 additional months?  Redfield just seems overly cautious.  Why not instead extend month-to-month and see where science takes us?  Maybe that means December, maybe February, maybe June.  Lets see what comes out of tomorrow's meeting.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Baron Barracuda

[Arizona Wildcat]

3 hours ago, bikerunner said:

AZ did not handle it I assume well.  I am in NH system and we have 25 beds out of 2200 beds occupied as of Tuesday.  I work for Dhmc and get the stats every week.  

Correct.  About 60% of our total cases are from 16-40 year olds.  Currently huge testing - up to 5000 a day by universities and schools giving higher numbers.

 Governor allowed limited restaurants too early but many bars and restaurants - bars permanently closed now as liquor licenses revoked - as did not follow guidelines.  There were hundreds at some bars. 

Most hospitalized today are from three groups - elderly (cases almost zero for some months), Navajo Nation and others with challenging living conditions including no running water and agricultural workers.  Many of the last 3 groups hospitalized.  COVID cured but complications remain.

NH has only 25 people hospitalized?  In normal times we are 30-50% of beds occupied and close to 100% every winter when the snowbirds arrive.

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Arizona Wildcat

[bikerunner]

12 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

NH has only 25 people hospitalized? 

Sorry I was not clear on my wording.  Bad habit of mine and one 

 

25 for Covid Total Hospitalized not sure what the state census rate is overall.   The hospital I work for we run around 95-97% census rate and adding on 90-120 more beds in 2 more years.  Dartmouth has 396 inpatient beds at this point.  

Edited October 1, 2020 by bikerunner
I cant type

[nocl]

37 minutes ago, Baron Barracuda said:

That's why I put quotes around "compromise".  Hate to be put in position of defending Pence, but considering during the 6 months cruising has been on hold much progress has been made on testing, therapeutics and vaccines why decide today to continue lock down for 5 additional months?  Redfield just seems overly cautious.  Why not instead extend month-to-month and see where science takes us?  Maybe that means December, maybe February, maybe June.  Lets see what comes out of tomorrow's meeting.

I would have preferred the CDC issuing an long term do not sail order with the ability of the cruise lines to get the ability to sail by submitting and getting their plans approved.  That would have made it clear what would have been expected, allowed the cruise lines some certainty, if they actively cooperated with the CDC in the submission and approval of those plans.

 

What is going on now is a one month extension during which the cruise lines can present their approach.

 

The very scary wording in the article is

 

demonstrate it has a plan to ensure "ships can sail in a safe and responsible manner and that the companies assume the burden of dealing with any possible outbreaks

 

 

and 

 

"describe their transformation and dozens of ways that they will mitigate risk and ensure public health,

 

Which implies a not very robust and approval process.

 

Would have been better if it was stated by the committee that during the month the cruise lines could submit their plans for review and approval. Instead it seems like the meeting will be a rah rah session where the CLIA can drag out their report and recommendations, and produce their framework and call it a plan.  

 

I would not be surprised if it is just sometime during the 30 days an announcement occurs that the cruise lines have submitted their "plans" and the no sail order will end at the end of October.  I actually expect that announcement prior to October 15.

Edited October 1, 2020 by nocl

[alwaysonaship]

3 minutes ago, nocl said:

I would have preferred the CDC issuing an long term do not sail order with the ability of the cruise lines to get the ability to sail by submitting and getting their plans approved.  That would have made it clear what would have been expected, allowed the cruise lines some certainty, if they actively cooperated with the CDC in the submission and approval of those plans.

 

What is going on now is a one month extension during which the cruise lines can present their approach.

 

The very scary wording in the article is

 

demonstrate it has a plan to ensure "ships can sail in a safe and responsible manner and that the companies assume the burden of dealing with any possible outbreaks

 

 

and 

 

"describe their transformation and dozens of ways that they will mitigate risk and ensure public health,

 

Which implies a not very robust and approval process.

 

Would have been better if it was stated by the committee that during the month the cruise lines could submit their plans for review and approval. Instead it seems like the meeting will be a rah rah session where the CLIA can drag out their report and recommendations, and produce their framework and call it a plan.

Unfortunately it is politics. As much as some of you want to cruise, a month isn’t going to make any difference. We could easily be looking at a year.

[phoenix_dream]

9 minutes ago, alwaysonaship said:

Unfortunately it is politics. As much as some of you want to cruise, a month isn’t going to make any difference. We could easily be looking at a year.

Don't understand what you mean.  A year for what?  For it to be safe to cruise?  For cruises to resume?  For the CDC to approve plans???

[bigbenboys]

On 9/30/2020 at 12:59 PM, CruiseSoon123 said:

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2761770-no-sail-order-extended-to-october-31st/?do=findComment&comment=60412053

Thanks Arizona Wildcat.  That makes sense.  However, for me, that seems like a deal breaker as I wouldn't want to get stuck and quarantined someplace with no easy / affordable way back to the states. 

 

Yes, ease of getting home if something happens or I test poz for Corvid-19 is one of the reasons I did not L&S our Feb 2021 New Zealand/Fiji cruise. I moved our cruise to the Med in Aug 2021.

[hcat]

Thread has turned hostile,   political and  at times unproductive  Alot of it is TMI.

 

If cruising restarts..folks can decide if they want to go and if so  when; and if the rules/ protocols are something they can follow.

[jelayne]

3 minutes ago, hcat said:

Thread has turned hostile,   political and  at times unproductive  Alot of it is TMI.

 

If cruising restarts..folks can decide if they want to go and if so  when; and if the rules/ protocols are something they can follow.

👍 

[C-Dragons]

12 minutes ago, hcat said:

Thread has turned hostile,   political and  at times unproductive  Alot of it is TMI.

 

If cruising restarts..folks can decide if they want to go and if so  when; and if the rules/ protocols are something they can follow.

Thank you.